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Mike Sweeney

Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #75 on: April 30, 2014, 04:36:53 PM »

There's something irksome about a golf equipment manufacturer tampering with a centuries old game, especially when said manufacturer is basically employing the same churning tactics to hawk their wares as those used by unscrupulous Wall St. stockbrokers.

And we should listen to this guy why?    ???


James,

You stepped on this one :)

This has been going on since Old Tom Morris threw Allan Robertson under the bus oops, horse drawn carriage :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Tom_Morris

Morris worked under Robertson at St Andrews until 1851, when he was fired on the spot after being caught by Robertson playing the new guttie golf ball; Robertson had a profitable business making the featherie ball, which was threatened by the emergence of the guttie. Morris was then hired by Prestwick Golf Club, which was just starting up. At Prestwick, he designed, laid out, and maintained the course, ran his own golf equipment business selling gutties and clubs, gave instruction to players, and ran events. He was influential in beginning The Open Championship in 1860, and struck the very first shot in that event.

Golf is a business, just like governments and healthcare!

One more bubble to burst. The winners of the baseball World Series are actually not the champions of the World!  :D
« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 04:40:10 PM by Mike Sweeney »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #76 on: April 30, 2014, 04:43:44 PM »
The guttie's product cycle was a bit longer than nine months.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Sweeney

Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #77 on: April 30, 2014, 04:56:43 PM »
The guttie's product cycle was a bit longer than nine months.

Innovation and technology were much slower to advance in those days. My guess is golf innovations were very comparable to industrial innovations such as home heating. Do a search on 2014 home heaters. There are a lot of Taylor Mades out there in every industry.

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #78 on: April 30, 2014, 05:12:44 PM »
I wonder if golf's thought leaders' efforts to try and kick-start growth of the game haven't been a bit bass-ackwards. It seems to me that the general message out there around this issue is something like:

"Golf, in its current form, is fun for a lot of people, but not fun enough for a lot more people to start thinking it's fun and worth learning. We are going to start changing some aspects of the game that we think will make the game a bit easier to enjoy for people who don't play it."

What would the impartial observer infer from that message? To me, it seems that the message is saying "We acknowledge that there are things that are wrong with the game; we are going to try changing some of those things to get you to like it."

That statement doesn't seem to belie a lot of confidence on the part of the message-maker. As a non-golfer, what about that attitude is going to make me want to try golf out, even if they change some things I don't know anything about in the first place (because, you know, I don't play golf)? How in the hell is that sort of attitude going to energize me?

Instead, why don't golf's thought leaders pour all of their creative energies (and, god-forbid, maybe a couple of their own dollars?) into a game-wide PR campaign that, instead of acknowledging certain apparent negatives about the game, reinforces the best things about the game (which are many enough in number that the right marketing minds should have little trouble producing positive stuff that might move the needle)?

The best thing about going positive, rather than acknowledging negatives and promising non-golfers that "Don't worry, guys, we're going to overcome these abstract problems that you don't really understand!!!!!" is that we don't have to change anything about a game that many millions of people think is the bees' knees.

Of course, it's probably just easier to cut a 15-inch hole into your greens and pat yourself on the back for "growing the game."
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #79 on: April 30, 2014, 05:43:27 PM »
I think you morons and some of you MIT's are confusing I&B with the field of play.

Ie, Football.  Now I know some will site the shifting of the hash marks and goal posts, but, the field is essentially the same as always.
Maybe a little less crowned due to better drainange and indoor fields, but basically intact.

Ditto Tennis, Baseball, Basketball and Hockey.

The Net in tennis isn't lower, neither is the pitcher's mound nor the distance between the bases; nor the diameter of the rim and distance to the foul line.  Yes, I know about the 3-point line.  The dimensions of the net in hockey remain the same, so why the urge to change the field of play ?

And, you morons,  and MIT's have ignored the impact on chipping, pitching and approach shots.

Doesn't Ran test you guys annually any more ?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 06:13:08 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #80 on: April 30, 2014, 05:48:01 PM »
Tim,

Nicely put. That was exactly the point I was making with the football (soccer) analogy.

No reason to reinvent the wheel, simply demonstrate everything it can do for you.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #81 on: April 30, 2014, 06:00:21 PM »
Mike,  I don't think the game of golf is analogous to heating a house. And I don't think that innovation necessarily means advancement when it comes to the game of golf.   Golf is a game, not a business.  There have always been people who have profited financially from the game, but the golf itself is not a business.  The best interests of those profiting are not always in line with the interests of the game.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #82 on: April 30, 2014, 07:37:36 PM »
I posted before on a similar thread.  Have any of you played to the larger cups?  I have as a local club experimented when our greens were being regressed and we visited.  Candidly, it wasn't much fun for those who already play.  incidentally, Sarazen was instrumental in getting a tourney played with larger holes in the 30's.  He thought putting was overemphasized.  He found that all the bigger cup did was move the "throw up zone" a little further qway.  good putters still had a big advantage.

As for new players, generally the hard part isn't the putting, its getting the ball airborne in the right direction.  A bigger hole won't fix that.  so putting aside the motivation of those sponsoring the initiative, I suspect it won't work.  When I taught tennis, there was a certain percentage of people who weren't going to get better.  The same is true for golf but at least we play on beautiful courses and the handicap system allows us to compete.  But I doubt it will ever be a mass participation sport.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 08:00:12 AM by SL_Solow »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #83 on: April 30, 2014, 11:14:14 PM »
Keith,Why would TMAG give a damn about the USGA.  That would be the same battle as  say Ford and the auto unions...USGA makes rules of golf and has zero business telling anyone what type of equipment they can make or to who an owner can sell tee times or to what a person can play on a given course when they purchase that tee time...cheers
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike Sweeney

Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #84 on: May 01, 2014, 05:44:43 AM »
The best interests of those profiting are not always in line with the interests of the game.


Well club histories are not always best written by club members. I think the Taylor Made CEO and David Moriarty use "15 inch cups" and "CB Macdonald is the architect of Merion" as red herrings to drive home other issues and possibilities.

Golf needs disruptors, and disruptors have enemies. I assume you already know this!

This is a compliment so just take it and yes we know your motivations are not driven by economic profit like Mark King.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #85 on: May 01, 2014, 08:57:13 AM »
Mike,

I have a hard time equating OT Morris with Mark King.  ;)




 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Keith Grande

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #86 on: May 01, 2014, 10:17:53 AM »
Keith,Why would TMAG give a damn about the USGA.  That would be the same battle as  say Ford and the auto unions...USGA makes rules of golf and has zero business telling anyone what type of equipment they can make or to who an owner can sell tee times or to what a person can play on a given course when they purchase that tee time...cheers

I think the more important question is why have the USGA bowed down to the manufacturers on I&B?  Is it the sponsorship money?  Pressure from PGA?

If USGA declared the SLDR driver illegal, think that would affect TMAG sales?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #87 on: May 01, 2014, 10:40:59 AM »
Isn't Old Tom making a new and better golf ball just the first example of someone trying to make money through new technology?  What's the big dif in him wanting balls to go further and Taylor Made/Callaway etc trying to make golf balls go further?

All innovation in golf has come from individuals or companies for over 100 years, no?  None from the USGA or PGA (unless you count spectator mounds to sell more tickets?)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Brent Hutto

Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #88 on: May 01, 2014, 11:32:02 AM »
Isn't Old Tom making a new and better golf ball just the first example of someone trying to make money through new technology?  What's the big dif in him wanting balls to go further and Taylor Made/Callaway etc trying to make golf balls go further?

Completely agree.

Keith Grande

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #89 on: May 01, 2014, 12:02:43 PM »
Isn't Old Tom making a new and better golf ball just the first example of someone trying to make money through new technology?  What's the big dif in him wanting balls to go further and Taylor Made/Callaway etc trying to make golf balls go further?

All innovation in golf has come from individuals or companies for over 100 years, no?  None from the USGA or PGA (unless you count spectator mounds to sell more tickets?)

USGA Spec Greens?
First Tee program?

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #90 on: May 01, 2014, 12:30:36 PM »
Isn't Old Tom making a new and better golf ball just the first example of someone trying to make money through new technology?  What's the big dif in him wanting balls to go further and Taylor Made/Callaway etc trying to make golf balls go further?

...

What ever made you think OTM wanted the ball to go further?  ::)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #91 on: May 01, 2014, 12:31:38 PM »
Isn't Old Tom making a new and better golf ball just the first example of someone trying to make money through new technology?  What's the big dif in him wanting balls to go further and Taylor Made/Callaway etc trying to make golf balls go further?

Completely agree.


Except that the whole premise of the statement is wrong!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #92 on: May 01, 2014, 02:37:27 PM »
Well club histories are not always best written by club members. I think the Taylor Made CEO and David Moriarty use "15 inch cups" and "CB Macdonald is the architect of Merion" as red herrings to drive home other issues and possibilities.

Golf needs disruptors, and disruptors have enemies. I assume you already know this!

This is a compliment so just take it and yes we know your motivations are not driven by economic profit like Mark King.

Mike,  The Taylor Made CEO and the other manufacturers have been defining the culture of the golf industry for the last few decades.  His latest attempt to drum up business is about as much of a disruptor as is the McRib or KFC's double down . . .



______________________________________

Jeff,

The Guttie became popular because it was much cheaper, much more durable, and much easier to produce. The basic technology was state of the art for about 50 years.  I don't really think one major change every half century or so is all that analogous to what we see with today's equipment.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #93 on: May 01, 2014, 03:52:50 PM »
Keith,Why would TMAG give a damn about the USGA.  That would be the same battle as  say Ford and the auto unions...USGA makes rules of golf and has zero business telling anyone what type of equipment they can make or to who an owner can sell tee times or to what a person can play on a given course when they purchase that tee time...cheers

I think the more important question is why have the USGA bowed down to the manufacturers on I&B? 
Is it the sponsorship money? 
Pressure from PGA?

Concerns over litigation and wild jury awards.


If USGA declared the SLDR driver illegal, think that would affect TMAG sales?

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #94 on: May 01, 2014, 06:04:22 PM »
Keith,Why would TMAG give a damn about the USGA.  That would be the same battle as  say Ford and the auto unions...USGA makes rules of golf and has zero business telling anyone what type of equipment they can make or to who an owner can sell tee times or to what a person can play on a given course when they purchase that tee time...cheers

I think the more important question is why have the USGA bowed down to the manufacturers on I&B? 
Is it the sponsorship money? 
Pressure from PGA?

Concerns over litigation and wild jury awards.


If USGA declared the SLDR driver illegal, think that would affect TMAG sales?

The USGA has stated that they did not add additional regulations for the new ball, because they felt it would be ethically irresponsible to bankrupt certain ball companies.

My assumption is that they were concerned that any regulations they would make would have made all balls produced by TopFlite nonconforming.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #95 on: May 01, 2014, 07:07:04 PM »
Garland dou you have a citation of where the usga said that?  Thanks.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #96 on: May 02, 2014, 12:01:58 AM »
Keith,Why would TMAG give a damn about the USGA.  That would be the same battle as  say Ford and the auto unions...USGA makes rules of golf and has zero business telling anyone what type of equipment they can make or to who an owner can sell tee times or to what a person can play on a given course when they purchase that tee time...cheers

I think the more important question is why have the USGA bowed down to the manufacturers on I&B? 
Is it the sponsorship money? 
Pressure from PGA?

Concerns over litigation and wild jury awards.


If USGA declared the SLDR driver illegal, think that would affect TMAG sales?

The USGA has stated that they did not add additional regulations for the new ball, because they felt it would be ethically irresponsible to bankrupt certain ball companies.

Garland,

Are you sure that it wasn't litigation, and not bankruptcy that they were concerned with ?


My assumption is that they were concerned that any regulations they would make would have made all balls produced by TopFlite nonconforming.



Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #97 on: May 02, 2014, 01:25:50 AM »
Was baseball "debased" by softball or even "wiffle ball?"
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #98 on: May 02, 2014, 05:33:48 AM »
Was baseball "debased" by softball or even "wiffle ball?"

No.

Both allowed a much wider group of people to play a version of the game, and each elevated the appreciation of the beauty and difficulty of the "hard ball" version of the game.
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Mike Sweeney

Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #99 on: May 02, 2014, 07:27:52 AM »
From today's NY Times:

In Golf Digest’s Bid for Younger Readers, It’s Less Faldo, More Fallon

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/02/sports/golf/transformed-golf-digest-tries-to-connect-with-younger-players.html?ref=sports&_r=0

With a 27-question survey of 1,020 male golfers of all ages late last year, Golf Digest’s research helps paint a picture of the preferences, habits and peccadilloes of the millennial golfer. The data could be a window into the future of recreational golf.

■ Millennials mostly view the golf experience as a nine-hole round or a visit to a driving range and are less likely to play an 18-hole round, the staple of older golfers.

■ Younger golfers are less inclined to take lessons but consider practice more important than older golfers do. They also smoke more cigars and drink more alcohol (not beer) on the course than other golfers do. By a nearly 3-to-1 ratio, they want music available in the midst of a golf round.

Younger golfers are not nearly as attracted to playing at a highly rated premier course as older golfers are. They would rather play near home with friends. As with all other age groups, more than 80 percent of millennials play golf at public facilities, not private clubs.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 07:31:45 AM by Mike Sweeney »

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