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Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Debasing the Game
« on: April 27, 2014, 04:37:10 PM »


How many of us on this site would want to participate, except for one time.

See:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/27/sunday-review/a-birdbath-size-hole-and-the-future-of-golf.html?_r=0

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2014, 06:05:23 PM »
Utterly ridiculous.

I'm not sure how the other thread on this subject stayed on topic for so long but it isn't golf and should be laughed out of court.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Mike Sweeney

Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2014, 07:44:45 PM »
When I first started playing basketball there was no three point shot. Today it is a HUGE part of the game.

When I first started playing squash, it was on a narrow court with a hard ball. Now everyone plays on a wide court with a soft ball and it is a MUCH better sport.

When I first started skiing, I used skis. I still do but the mountains are filled with snowboarders (except for Alta :))

What is the big deal if 150 golf courses out of 15,000 in the USA give it a shot?

Beginners have a place to play without being intimidated and they don't hold up play...

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2014, 07:52:53 PM »
Mike, it just shows how good a game golf has always been.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2014, 08:00:33 PM »
When I first started playing basketball there was no three point shot. Today it is a HUGE part of the game.

When I first started playing squash, it was on a narrow court with a hard ball. Now everyone plays on a wide court with a soft ball and it is a MUCH better sport.

When I first started skiing, I used skis. I still do but the mountains are filled with snowboarders (except for Alta :))

What is the big deal if 150 golf courses out of 15,000 in the USA give it a shot?

Beginners have a place to play without being intimidated and they don't hold up play...

FACT POLICE!  Snowboarding is stagnant to declining.  I agree though.  If a few muni 9 holes do it and it works, more power to them.  It's not as if Bandon or anywhere worth it's salt will do it...
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2014, 08:12:59 PM »

Mike, it just shows how good a game golf has always been.

Agree,

The inherent lure of the game is the challenge it presents in it's current form.

Ask yourself this.

If Taylor's product line was solely putters, would they be advocating this position ?


Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2014, 09:53:48 PM »
Funny how Taylor Made thinks kids hate putt putt golf so they will hate real golf too. Most kids I know love putt putt golf.

If Taylor Made want to get the game back in Sync, they should give us balls that go less far, and clubs that hit them less far, so we can walk less and play more. In the mean time

Boycott Taylor Made!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2014, 10:33:16 PM »
Don't jump to quickly...think about it.  If such an ction allows courses with open tee times to sell those tee times it does nothing but help the owners and the players that wish to play the normal game...no one is forcing anyone to play it.  Same goes for equipment.  The object is to make many of our courses profitable by bringing in more people.  Get over it. :)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2014, 10:39:32 PM »

Don't jump to quickly...think about it. 

If such an action allows courses with open tee times to sell those tee times it does nothing but help the owners and the players that wish to play the normal game...no one is forcing anyone to play it. 

Same goes for equipment. 

The object is to make many of our courses profitable by bringing in more people.  Get over it. :)

That's a pretty narrow segment isn't it Mike.

Mongrelizing the game hardly seems like a noble pursuit, especially when Taylor's motives ares strictly financial


Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2014, 10:44:28 PM »

Don't jump to quickly...think about it. 

If such an action allows courses with open tee times to sell those tee times it does nothing but help the owners and the players that wish to play the normal game...no one is forcing anyone to play it. 

Same goes for equipment. 

The object is to make many of our courses profitable by bringing in more people.  Get over it. :)

That's a pretty narrow segment isn't it Mike.

Mongrelizing the game hardly seems like a noble pursuit, especially when Taylor's motives ares strictly financial


Pat,
I don't know.  I think since almost 75 percent of present courses are public and don't have dues paying members to subsidize operations there might be merit to it.  I think we all have to look at it in a light where we don't care what game a foursome other than our own is playing...I know I have zero desire to play such a game but I would not be opposed to a course doing it if it helped it survive....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2014, 11:24:43 PM »
Mike,

You can always make the game easier.

But here's the rub.

The prevailing trend for decades has been to make courses harder.

And golfers seemed to have embraced and been proud of that trend.

At what point does dumbing down the game eliminate the challenge to the degree that the game loses it's appeal ?

Why not a 30 inch cup ?

I believe that the downtrend is strictly due to the economy.
Fix the economy and the game will grow.

Continue to demonize hard work and success in a quest to eradicate the accumulation of wealth and the game will continue to shrink.

Joe_Tucholski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2014, 11:33:42 PM »
I have to say I love the idea as a tool for youth/beginners.

When I first started playing baseball I hit of a tee on a smaller field.

When I first started playing basketball the rim was lower than 10 feet and the court was smaller.

When I first started playing soccer the ball and the field were smaller.

When I first started bowling I used bumpers.

Thursday afternoon appears to be the day the local middle schools play at my current home course.  I played behind them one afternoon and 3+ putts were common.  They play from forward tees but that doesn't help with the putting.  Why not make it a little easier at the start.  

That being said why limit it to kids.  I think it would be great for courses to have beginner days/afternoons where the large holes are in place and staff is available for instruction on different holes giving tips as the beginners play through.  When in LA I took friends who rarely played to a flat 9 hole course, that is the type of course I could see really benefiting from something like this...I think you could also have that footgolf thing on the same day right?   ;)

Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2014, 12:05:06 AM »


How many of us on this site would want to participate, except for one time.

See:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/27/sunday-review/a-birdbath-size-hole-and-the-future-of-golf.html?_r=0


Not I.
Nor foot golf either.
Though to be fair,
I have played "golf" on a pool table, with a deck of cards, and five dice, several video games, a projection net, and on a board game.
"chief sherpa"

Mike Sweeney

Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2014, 05:51:34 AM »

And golfers seemed to have embraced and been proud of that trend.


Patrick,

They are already golfers!! You are viewing this through a lens of your golfing habits.  

Listen, I have no skin in the game. Golf is my passion, I spend money on golf.  

But if I was making money off of golf like many people here, I would be open to new ideas to bring in new players, including that 2 hour golf thread which I would try for sure.

This 3 on 3 basketball tournament has all sorts of ball sizes, court sizes, and basket heights:

http://www.nike3on3.com/play/court-size

Somehow with all these bastardizations of Dr. Naismith's rules, Connecticut is the NCAA Champion(s), and soon there will be an NBA Champion. Nobody looks any differently at those trophies due to a 3 on 3 tournament for kids with a lower rim. If anything, it raises the bar for how great the athletes are at the elite levels, which Nike has probably figured out when they sell them new shoes.

You and John Kavanaugh are killing the growth of golf :)

Mike Sweeney

Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2014, 05:58:09 AM »
Don't jump to quickly...think about it.  If such an ction allows courses with open tee times to sell those tee times it does nothing but help the owners and the players that wish to play the normal game...no one is forcing anyone to play it.  Same goes for equipment.  The object is to make many of our courses profitable by bringing in more people.  Get over it. :)

I would go one step further, some courses could have two sets of pins on greens - wide and traditional.

Pat Mucci,

We are NOT suggesting Seminole do it!

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2014, 06:16:31 AM »
I'm with you, Mike.  For another example, of which Sir Bob may be familiar, think of pool.  In the US, pool is a game of skill played with 16 relatively large balls on a relatively small table with relatively large pockets and relatively simple rules.  A basic game of pool (e.g. 8-ball) takes about 15 minutes to play.  The same is the case over here in the UK, when it comes to casual games, in areas where space is at a premium, i.e. pubs.  There is also over here a very advanced and extremely difficult variation of pool called snooker.  Much larger table, more (22) and much smaller balls and pockets, extremely complicated rules (with concomitantly more complex strategies).  Snooker is dying in the UK, but stays alive due to the new, but seemingly insatiable, demand for complicated Western sports in China.  Single games can take up to an hour to play and most serious competitions require best-of-9, or -27 or even -35 games.  Serious matches, under strict observation of the rules can take days to complete.  Any wonder why very few Brits play snooker these days?

Sound familiar?
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

scott_wood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2014, 06:18:56 AM »
I know of one NY Public course which is actively contemplating using  the larger hole, in ADDITIION TO, the regular size cups FOR "Charity" outings...as a trial....will report back...

Their primary aim is to " get them off the course" so they can sell more tee times...I.e. "Speed of play"
Secondary hope is " more $, over time.......

Kevin_D

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2014, 06:27:14 AM »
What has never made sense to me about this is that putting is the one area of the game that, in theory at least, my 13 year old nephew could compete against Bubba Watson.

You want to grow the game? Bring back par 3 courses and chip and putts like Woody's Golf Center (NLE) in Norristown, PA where I grew up playing.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2014, 08:16:29 AM »
I've absolutely zero interest in growing the game. I would however like to see it continue in it's present form and holding on to it's traditional values. If someone wants to alter that to make money then stuff them.

Niall

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2014, 08:23:00 AM »

And golfers seemed to have embraced and been proud of that trend.


Patrick,

They are already golfers!! You are viewing this through a lens of your golfing habits.  

Listen, I have no skin in the game. Golf is my passion, I spend money on golf.  

But if I was making money off of golf like many people here, I would be open to new ideas to bring in new players, including that 2 hour golf thread which I would try for sure.

Mike,

That's my point.

Is the proposal in the best interest of the game or your pocketbook ?

And therein lies the inherent conflict

15 inch cups aren't going to bring in as many new golfers as $ 15 green fees.
But $ 15 green fees aren't going to help your pocketbook.
Ergo you're going to look to mongrelized the game for your financial game.

Look at how golf grew over the last century.

Look at how everything has sped up over the last century.

Then look at how golf has slowed up over the last century DESPITE the enormous improvement in equipment and motorized transportation.

It's TIME that's the impediment, not 4.25 inch cups.

And, it's cost and the economy, not 4.25 inch cups.


This 3 on 3 basketball tournament has all sorts of ball sizes, court sizes, and basket heights:
http://www.nike3on3.com/play/court-size

Irrelevant


Somehow with all these bastardizations of Dr. Naismith's rules, Connecticut is the NCAA Champion(s), and soon there will be an NBA Champion. Nobody looks any differently at those trophies due to a 3 on 3 tournament for kids with a lower rim. If anything, it raises the bar for how great the athletes are at the elite levels, which Nike has probably figured out when they sell them new shoes.

Mike, tell us who is playing basketball ?

30, 40, 50, 60, 70 and 80 year old men.

Or young kids whose only cost to play the game is for a pair of sneakers and for someone to buy a ball ?

And of those kids, are the best players from the inner cities or the suburbs and rural areas ?


You and John Kavanaugh are killing the growth of golf :)

IT'S THE ECONOMY THAT'S KILLING THE GROWTH OF THE GAME !



Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2014, 08:26:19 AM »
....and people slag off the R&A for debasing the game !! Now, where's my membership application......

Niall

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2014, 08:40:28 AM »
Put simply, this isn't about growing the game, this is about inventing a similar game which some think would make them more wealthy. If you have no soul, fine, otherwise leave well alone. A well meaning attempt to introduce a new audience to cricket has done nothing but promote the new version of the game, in the process threatening the very existence of the unabridged five day version.

And all this talk of bringing in the kids is, at best, misplaced. Kids can't drive the ball 300 yards but they can putt. Therefore, pitch and putt golf is a proper introduction to the game, not 300 inch cups.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2014, 08:53:04 AM »
As from the previous thread, I am all for 150 or so courses trying it, or offering two cups, or two days a week with both or larger cups, etc.  I agree the locations would have to be carefully selected, perhaps by trial and error.

The "no change" opinions here are typical of the 8M core golfers, and to be expected.  Golf does appeal to many just the way it is.  No problem with that.

But, things do change, at an ever accelerating rate.  Not sure golf, which HAS changed, doesn't need to change to adapt to the next generations tastes, at least somewhat. I understand its sad that it may have to make itself more like a video game to be attractive, but that is what might happen, if not with 15" cups, then perhaps with more tech or something else.

Some have gone beyond the 15" cup question to the root question, which is, if society allows less and less time for golf and practice, what do we do to make it faster and easier, since a large portion of people who might play a few times a year don't because its also too hard to master?  With so many recreation options, many just can't make a commitment to golf, and would make it closer to something like "going to a movie" for a night.

And, I agree, shorter courses (a la Tee It Forward) would also work, but keeping the existing clubs so more golfers have a realistic approach shot, and not an unreachable green.  You know, play courses with an average of driver and 6 iron as was originally intended for the rest of us......yes, basically, an expansion of multiple tees to level the playing field, to perhaps multiple balls, cups and courses to make up the difference between the tour pros and the rest of us.  The old saying "he plays a game with which I am not familiar" is truer now than when said about Nicklaus.

As to putting being an equalizer, I also don't agree - unless of course you can go to the club or range and spend hours perfecting a stroke.  No one (or perhaps one in a million) is born a naturally good putter.  And kids have everything else dumbed down so much to assist their "accomplishments" that NOT doing so may turn them off to golf altogether.

In essence, shorter courses and bigger holes (although I agree it may not have to be the clownish 15" cup) would give those folks the thrills of golf at a faster pace, which seems to fit societies' faster pace.  I think it would go a long way to making the game more fun for a lot more people.  For those who think it ought to be some test of manhood, I am just not sure we need to force that on everyone.  I also believe that if starters and occasional players use the 15" cup, it will give them even more reverence for the traditional game, and some will continue on to try to master it.

I see golf as strong enough to adapt, and don't see any adaptations as a weakness as some of you do.  Of course, I don't really know what is best either, but experimenting on 150 or so courses seems the way to find out, no?

As to the snide jabs at profit only motive, I would say most folks just in general worry about providing for the next generation and keeping it going.  Are we really so selfish that we don't care if golf dies the day we do?  It's not all about the profit, as some suggest.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2014, 09:29:13 AM »
Jeff,

It is about profit.

I'm not saying that those advocating for 15 inch cups are bad people, but they do have a "self serving interest",  an agenda.

They are not advocating or acting from an arms length, independent, neutral position.

If they were a "think tank", I might view their advocacy differently.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Debasing the Game
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2014, 09:44:55 AM »
Jeff,

It is about profit.

I'm not saying that those advocating for 15 inch cups are bad people, but they do have a "self serving interest",  an agenda.

They are not advocating or acting from an arms length, independent, neutral position.

If they were a "think tank", I might view their advocacy differently.

Profit/revenues/greed is going to/has driven college basketball (via having to follow the lead of college football) into a mess with all the pending litigation.

So I do appreciate and understand your position. Golf has never had more access than today, look at some of the clubs "Mucci" belongs to :)

However when I see profit driven Ping Golf do their work with the Wounded Warrior Project (who was at a college basketball tournament this winter at MSG that I attended), corporate profit can be good.

Like most things in life, it is a balance. Finding that balance is complicated.

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