News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: The misperception of the short game.
« Reply #125 on: April 28, 2014, 06:00:12 PM »
Jon, analytics is a science. Stats don't tell us much by themselves. Analytics is the science of making meaningful interpretations of data. You'll notice that most of the people using the word "stats" in this thread are people who don't understand the difference between the two words. That's not a coincidence. They don't even understand what they're trying to argue against.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The misperception of the short game.
« Reply #126 on: April 28, 2014, 06:00:52 PM »
So my opponent has a dodgy long game meaning he misses half the greens. He does however have a great short game and gets up and down each time and makes two birdies on the greens he hit in regulation meaning he is 2 under par. I have a great long game and hit all the fairways and 15 greens in reg but have a lower than par short game so fail to make any birdies and do not get up and down on the missed greens leaving me 3 over par.

Tom Watson maintained a very high standard with his long game and even at the age of 60 was an outstanding ball striker yet once his fabulous short game went he stopped being the dominant force he once was.

Yet if the important thing was long game and ball striking how come Tom Watson and I are not winning? The problem with stats is you can make them tell you the results you want.

Jon

Jon,
I realize that this is an extreme hypothetical to make a point, and I'm ok with that.  But...

In real life, a guy with a "dodgy long game" doesn't get up and down very often at all.  The key to getting up and down is missing the green in places from which you CAN get up and down, and that's ONLY possible with good ball striking.  Your friend might be a short hitter, but if he's going to get up and down frequently, he simply can't be an inaccurate ball striker.  It just isn't possible.  

I could take you to almost any course right now and for almost any pin position put the ball in a place where Tour pros couldn't get up and down as much as half the time.  BUT there are also places around that green where a decent golfer, say a 6 handicap, could get up and down more than half the time.

So in summary, if you want a better short game, have a better long game and miss in the right places where you have a chance to get up and down. The Tour guys know this, and they all try to play holes pretty much the same way.  

"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The misperception of the short game.
« Reply #127 on: April 28, 2014, 06:01:03 PM »

Great ball striking is a given for anyone on the tour so it can not be the decisive difference between the top few and the rest and ALL the top players have faded when their short game and especially their putting went off the boil. I agree that the long game is generally important to winning but players have won majors despite missing many fairways and green ala Seve in 1988 but I am struggling to recall a winner of a major who averaged more than 30 putts per round.

Jon

This may be true...but it's probably because they are hitting the ball closer on average than their competitors.  

No one is trying to say short game and putting is not important, but a dominant performance (which is usually needed in majors) is typically due to a player beating the field with the long game.  A dominant performance also usually takes the appearance of a great putting display, but in reality the putting display is made possible by close approaches and fewer missed greens.

As for Tom Watson, many things could be a factor. But ball striking doesn't mean length and it could be that he was just hitting more, albeit better struck, 5 irons than 8 irons into greens.  

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The misperception of the short game.
« Reply #128 on: April 28, 2014, 06:06:54 PM »
Now here's some questions in the short game-long game debate.

What type of golf ball should a short straight hitter with an excellent short game use?

A soft, feely, spinny ball to help him around the greens he's gonna struggle to reach or a distance ball to get him closer to the green and hope to compensate from there?

And should course type and ground condition - firm & fast or soft and lush - effect the choice?

atb

Thomas,
Think of it this way.  If you are a short, straight hitter, you are going to be a short, straight hitter NO MATTER WHAT GOLF BALL YOU USE!  The manufacturers don't make golf balls that spin much off the driver anymore, so forget about that; a ProV1 is about as long as a Pinnacle off the driver if you hit each properly.

The ONLY issue in 2014 is how much spin and feel you are willing to pay for.  You can pay $45/doz and get the max, you can step down $10 and get decent spin, or you can drop to the mid $20's and get very, very little spin.

So figure out what you like from 100 yds in and then decide how much you are willing to spend.

It's really that simple.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The misperception of the short game.
« Reply #129 on: April 28, 2014, 06:12:33 PM »
Jon,

There will always be anecdotal examples of situations where someone had a bad day with their long game, but still shot a reasonable score because their short game was basically perfect that day. That's not a reliable way to play the game though. It might happen once, but it isn't going to happen every time out.

Mark Broadie did a whole bunch of research into this. His paper can be found here: http://www.columbia.edu/~mnb2/broadie/Assets/strokes_gained_pga_broadie_20110408.pdf

The general story is that he looked at shotlink stats over an 8 year period (2003 to 2010) and over that period he took the average number of shots taken to complete a hole from basically everywhere. Then he measured how each player did relative to that average. From that he was able to tell where each player differentiated themselves from everyone else and by how many shots. Put that little lot together and you get his paper. Page 18 has some interesting numbers on it. Tiger Woods was clearly the best player over that period of time. 2/3 of that advantage that he had came from his long game (shots outside of 100 yards).

It is also interesting to note on the table on page 18 that Luke Donald has the worst long game of the top 10 over that period. He was ranked 65th for long game. That's still pretty decent and he was 7th on short game and 9th on putting. Donald and Harrington are the only two players for whom the long game doesn't make up more than short game and putting combined. Harrington still has the long game as the largest of the three parts of the game. Of that top ten however, there are Vijay Singh, Adam Scott and Sergio Garcia who rank 195th, 201st and 220th respectively for putting.

Correspondingly, of the bottom 10 performers (I think there's a minimum number of rounds to be included), all ten of them have the long game as the largest negative. Only Blaine McCallister has a larger contribution from short and putting combined than long.

Of the top ten, 6 are in the top ten for long game, but only 3 for short game and 2 for putting.

Of the bottom ten, 5 are in the bottom ten for long game, but only 1 for short game and 2 for putting.

Looking further down, the best long game is Tiger Woods - he gains 2.08 strokes per round from his long game. Craig Perks loses 1.79 strokes per round from his long game. So that's 3.87 shots from best to worst on the PGA Tour from long game.

The best short game is Steve Stricker - he gains 0.69 shots per round from his short game (inside 100 yards remember). Jose Maria Olazabal is the best chipper. He gains 0.30 shots per round from his chipping. The worst short game I'm not sure about but Guy Boros is 292nd and is losing 0.41 shots per round, so that's 1.1 shots from short game from best to pretty much worst.

The best putter is David Frost - he gains 0.72 shots per round from his putting. The worst that is shown is David Gossett (295th place out of 299) with -0.61. That's a range of 1.33 shots from putting.

So the range of best to worst for each of long game, short game and putting is 3.87 shots from the long game, 1.1 shots from the short game and 1.33 shots from putting. What does that tell you?

I can't tell you why Tom Watson wasn't dominant later on. I suspect it's because of a combination of a few things. One - that a stellar short game going to a poor one is still going to be a big problem. I'm not saying long game is the only thing that makes a difference, just that it's the largest. Two - that he is mistaken. Three - that the courses are significantly harder than they were when he was younger. Four - that the other players are notably better than his competition when he was younger.

Russ Arbuthnot

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The misperception of the short game.
« Reply #130 on: April 28, 2014, 06:15:50 PM »
I believe that the probability of getting up and down 17 times in a row for the best players in the world is 66%^17 or .085% or 1176 to 1. Not saying it can't happen, but it's a pretty amazing accomplishment.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The misperception of the short game.
« Reply #131 on: April 28, 2014, 06:18:36 PM »
Long game largely determines how well you do on average and short game determines how you do that day.

+1

Sorry, but the stats simply don't bear this out.  On ANY day, the long game is going to be the biggest factor in how one scores.  

The key, and I mean the absolute KEY, to the short game is controlling misses and putting the ball in places from which it is possible to get up and down.  THAT is a function of the long game and ball striking.

Ask any Tour guy what he is thinking of as he plans a shot, and the most common reply will be something along the lines of, "Where I want my next shot to be from!"  They take one side of the golf course out of play. They don't short-side themselves.  They aim at bunkers rather than putt from above the hole when they are in the rough and can't control the spin.  They lay up to EXACT yardages.  And on and on and on.

Want to have a better short game?  Get a better long game/course management and watch what happens!
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The misperception of the short game.
« Reply #132 on: April 28, 2014, 08:05:30 PM »

Sounds to me like if a guy like JN can chip it close and never three putts he would not need a good short game??? ;D

Isn't "chipping" and integral part of the short game ?


Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The misperception of the short game.
« Reply #133 on: April 28, 2014, 08:19:00 PM »

Sounds to me like if a guy like JN can chip it close and never three putts he would not need a good short game??? ;D

Isn't "chipping" and integral part of the short game ?

I always thought chipping and putting were part of it...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The misperception of the short game.
« Reply #134 on: April 28, 2014, 08:54:10 PM »
Mike's point: Ceterus Paribus (all things held equal) great green complexes are the best way to test pro golfers. Period.

BCowan

Re: The misperception of the short game.
« Reply #135 on: April 28, 2014, 09:24:40 PM »
I don't think most of you guys realize how good the pros really are.

Sam,

   I've been in the same group as Kirk Triplett, in one of his good years.  He rolled the ball incredibly, and his ball striking wasn't anything special.  I believe he made a Ryder Cup or two

You sure about that? What year did he make the Ryder Cup team?

I said ''I believe he.''   ''Triplett was a member of the U.S. team in the 2000 Presidents Cup''
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 10:16:41 PM by BCowan »

BCowan

Re: The misperception of the short game.
« Reply #136 on: April 28, 2014, 09:38:32 PM »
''Tom Watson maintained a very high standard with his long game and even at the age of 60 was an outstanding ball striker yet once his fabulous short game went he stopped being the dominant force he once was.''

''The problem with stats is you can make them tell you the results you want.''

   Jon,  I agree with you whether it is quantitative analysis or stats or whatever ''pencil neck geek terms used''.  You are using the same player, which is a constant.  What these theories don't take into account is the par save on thur, that kept the players frame of mind in order in which they didn't doubt their swing, and go on the bogey train (could have been up and down from 50 yards).  Now the course is very important too.  Soft 7400 yard courses, were someone hits it 300+ and relatively straight, par is 68.  I'm sure Corey Pavin would agree.  Plus these theories don't include the sat and sun of the players missed cut (which is missing some info due to cuts)  

   Do you realize how pure and long Tom Weiskoft hit the ball at age 58. 
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 09:43:23 PM by BCowan »

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: The misperception of the short game.
« Reply #137 on: April 28, 2014, 10:07:24 PM »
For anyone who's just now clicking on this thread and looking for a summary, it's basically an argument pitting people whose views are supported by scientific research that they've cited and linked throughout against people who agree with a guy that doesn't know the difference between the President's Cup and Ryder Cup and successfully forms a complete sentence on about 27% of his attempts.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

BCowan

Re: The misperception of the short game.
« Reply #138 on: April 28, 2014, 10:13:42 PM »
For anyone who's just now clicking on this thread and looking for a summary, it's basically an argument pitting people whose views are supported by scientific research that they've cited and linked throughout against people who agree with a guy that doesn't know the difference between the President's Cup and Ryder Cup and successfully forms a complete sentence on about 27% of his attempts.

Yeah, the same people that serenade Pelz on one thread and the MIT guy on the other, in which their theories/data say the complete opposite only makes sense in an insane world.  Real big difference between a 12 member team match play event held on opposite years, of course nitpickers are pretty lame when one states ''I believe''.  A guy that uses big words to make himself look smart are the ones that don't know their arse from a hole in the wall..     

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The misperception of the short game.
« Reply #139 on: April 28, 2014, 10:24:41 PM »
For anyone who's just now clicking on this thread and looking for a summary, it's basically an argument pitting people whose views are supported by scientific research that they've cited and linked throughout against people who agree with a guy that doesn't know the difference between the President's Cup and Ryder Cup and successfully forms a complete sentence on about 27% of his attempts.

Yeah, the same people that serenade Pelz on one thread and the MIT guy on the other, in which their theories/data say the complete opposite only makes sense in an insane world.  Real big difference between a 12 member team match play event held on opposite years, of course nitpickers are pretty lame when one states ''I believe''.  A guy that uses big words to make himself look smart are the ones that don't know their arse from a hole in the wall..     

You guys should settle this like Al Czervik and Judge Smails...

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: The misperception of the short game.
« Reply #140 on: April 28, 2014, 10:35:32 PM »
Sorry about the big words Ben. Read my post again and replace the words "a summary" with "the point" and the words "successfully forms" with "does a good job making." It should basically make sense to you after that. Don't worry too much about the word "scientific." It's just a word used to describe knowledge based on facts as opposed to anecdotal observations random stuff we see, like how we know that grass needs water and what things like MOI are.

Just for kicks, can you clarify where you see the divide between Pelz and Broadie/Hunt?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The misperception of the short game.
« Reply #141 on: April 28, 2014, 10:41:17 PM »
For people with handicaps of 14 or lower - keep track of the number of greens people in your group hit in regulation.  Subtract two strokes from 95 for each green hit.  For example if someone hits 9 greens the forumula will be 95-18=77

I bet the scores will be pretty close to the number you calculate unless the course is a very unusual design with very large or very small greens. 

I am not sure what the formula proves because someone who hits a lot of greens probably has (1) easier short game shots and (2) a better short game.   My read of the "Every Shot Counts" book is just that - every shot counts.  Long game largely determines how well you do on average and short game determines how you do that day.

Yes, I like that and have been searching for a way to put it into words for some time now. Long games determines how you do on average, and short game determines how you do that day. In general, I completely agree with you, and especially on the PGA Tour.

However: At my club, there are lots and lots of scratch and below players, some pros, some college kids, many mid-ams. What separates the mid-ams, though, is short game and mental game. We all hit it about the same, consistency-wise, but some of the mid-ams at my club are just better players, and in our group, the difference is all about short game and mental game since we all strike it similarly.

But here's another thing that I think the PGA Tour stats do not reveal for the average or even well-above-average club golfer: On tour, everyone has both good to great long games and good to great short games. No one is HORRIBLE at anything on the PGA Tour or even the Web.com tour or even on most solid mini-tours. That is not at all true, though, when it comes to amateurs. I play with very, very good ball-striking amateurs in the 1 - 3 handicap range. Several of them strike the ball like many +3's I know, but they have huge gaps in their short games and/or their putting. For those guys, spending time getting better from 150 to 225 is the most ridiculous advice you could possibly give them. They throw away 2 to 5 strokes a round due to horrible short-game and sand-play technique. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. I've spent so much time playing with guys like that that I would be shocked if that weren't the case.

I need to figure out a way to quantify it....


BCowan

Re: The misperception of the short game.
« Reply #142 on: April 28, 2014, 10:47:18 PM »
You don't have to apologize, we know what they mean even when we don't reply with the precise words.  You provide much laughter.  I didn't know great golf teachers were scientists and failed to use their observational skills...  How facts are taken and what ones are used is important.  Plus there are factors that can't even be measured.  

   Wasn't Pelz an advocate of 100 yards and in?  Doesn't the MIT guy/Foley conclude that practicing 40-100 yard shots is a waste of time?  I'm sure Pelz feels the same way  ;D
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 10:50:51 PM by BCowan »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The misperception of the short game.
« Reply #143 on: April 28, 2014, 11:15:42 PM »
A lot of MIT guys have won majors...BTW my nephew is at MIT right now and finished 349th in the Boston Marathon last week.  I saw a stat that said most fat guys don't have nephews that are that fast...and another that said those that finished behind him were considered to be slower. ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The misperception of the short game.
« Reply #144 on: April 29, 2014, 01:51:23 AM »

Looking further down, the best long game is Tiger Woods - he gains 2.08 strokes per round from his long game. Craig Perks loses 1.79 strokes per round from his long game. So that's 3.87 shots from best to worst on the PGA Tour from long game.

The best short game is Steve Stricker - he gains 0.69 shots per round from his short game (inside 100 yards remember). Jose Maria Olazabal is the best chipper. He gains 0.30 shots per round from his chipping. The worst short game I'm not sure about but Guy Boros is 292nd and is losing 0.41 shots per round, so that's 1.1 shots from short game from best to pretty much worst.

The best putter is David Frost - he gains 0.72 shots per round from his putting. The worst that is shown is David Gossett (295th place out of 299) with -0.61. That's a range of 1.33 shots from putting.

So the range of best to worst for each of long game, short game and putting is 3.87 shots from the long game, 1.1 shots from the short game and 1.33 shots from putting. What does that tell you?

It's possible to read the same numbers and make different conclusions.

What the numbers above say to me is one of two things, either:

(a)  The long game presents more opportunity for error and therefore a wider dispersion of results among Tour players, so the long game is more important overall, or

(b)  The smaller numbers for short game and putting indicate that unless you are within a stroke of Tour average at both, you just can't make it on Tour ... so that's the more important overall.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The misperception of the short game.
« Reply #145 on: April 29, 2014, 08:54:52 AM »
A lot of MIT guys have won majors...BTW my nephew is at MIT right now and finished 349th in the Boston Marathon last week.  I saw a stat that said most fat guys don't have nephews that are that fast...and another that said those that finished behind him were considered to be slower. ;D

Now that's funny!

Thanks, Mike. :)
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The misperception of the short game.
« Reply #146 on: April 29, 2014, 09:12:39 AM »

Looking further down, the best long game is Tiger Woods - he gains 2.08 strokes per round from his long game. Craig Perks loses 1.79 strokes per round from his long game. So that's 3.87 shots from best to worst on the PGA Tour from long game.

The best short game is Steve Stricker - he gains 0.69 shots per round from his short game (inside 100 yards remember). Jose Maria Olazabal is the best chipper. He gains 0.30 shots per round from his chipping. The worst short game I'm not sure about but Guy Boros is 292nd and is losing 0.41 shots per round, so that's 1.1 shots from short game from best to pretty much worst.

The best putter is David Frost - he gains 0.72 shots per round from his putting. The worst that is shown is David Gossett (295th place out of 299) with -0.61. That's a range of 1.33 shots from putting.

So the range of best to worst for each of long game, short game and putting is 3.87 shots from the long game, 1.1 shots from the short game and 1.33 shots from putting. What does that tell you?

It's possible to read the same numbers and make different conclusions.

What the numbers above say to me is one of two things, either:

(a)  The long game presents more opportunity for error and therefore a wider dispersion of results among Tour players, so the long game is more important overall, or

(b)  The smaller numbers for short game and putting indicate that unless you are within a stroke of Tour average at both, you just can't make it on Tour ... so that's the more important overall.

It is important to remember that nobody who plays on the PGA Tour is "bad" at ANY part of the game, and would be considered extraordinary at EVERY part of the game if you got paired up with them on a Tuesday morning sight unseen.  If you have a truly bad aspect of your game in ANY sport, you ain't playing on TV for money.

But there isn't any way to read the stats and conclude that the short game and putting are more important overall; there just isn't.  I'll say it again; the best way to have a good short game is to have a good long game and miss greens in places where you have a chance to get up and down.

Tom, you know this better than anyone from building a bazillion green complexes.  All misses aren't equal, and some are absolute screaming death no matter how good a player is with a wedge.  Others are relatively easy up-and-downs opportunities even for reasonably competent amateurs.  (A GREAT example might be Mickelson's miss at 13 in the US Open last year at Merion; he missed long, and had virtually NO chance of getting up and down, and he's arguably the best wedge player on the planet.  His long game cost him the US Open, and his short game couldn't save him.)

The better your long game is, the better your misses are.  The better your misses are, the better your chances of getting up and down.  And THAT determines the stats of short game.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

BCowan

Re: The misperception of the short game.
« Reply #147 on: April 29, 2014, 09:19:06 AM »
A.G.,

   You are confusing long game with course management.  Explain how that can be measured?

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The misperception of the short game.
« Reply #148 on: April 29, 2014, 09:25:38 AM »
For those guys, spending time getting better from 150 to 225 is the most ridiculous advice you could possibly give them. They throw away 2 to 5 strokes a round due to horrible short-game and sand-play technique. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. I've spent so much time playing with guys like that that I would be shocked if that weren't the case.



David:

One might argue they are in the sand, and getting bad results from their short game, because of where their long game put them.

BCowan: Course management is part and parcel about ability. The pros are pros because they are better at course management than David's +3s, and that course management -- i.e., staying out of trouble -- relates directly to their ability in the long game. Not exclusively, but to a greater extent than the short game.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The misperception of the short game.
« Reply #149 on: April 29, 2014, 09:35:49 AM »
For those guys, spending time getting better from 150 to 225 is the most ridiculous advice you could possibly give them. They throw away 2 to 5 strokes a round due to horrible short-game and sand-play technique. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. I've spent so much time playing with guys like that that I would be shocked if that weren't the case.



David:

One might argue they are in the sand, and getting bad results from their short game, because of where their long game put them.

BCowan: Course management is part and parcel about ability. The pros are pros because they are better at course management than David's +3s, and that course management -- i.e., staying out of trouble -- relates directly to their ability in the long game. Not exclusively, but to a greater extent than the short game.

I think there's some truth to that, but pretty much every good player misses around six greens a round, on average, and 8 or 9 during bad rounds (depending on the difficulty of the course, obviously, so players do need to get up and down every round. The thing I see is that many low handicap players have glaring holes in their games around the greens such that their ability to hit basic shots out of even moderately difficult lies is just not there. They didn't "short-side" themselves, necessarily, they just don't know how to play the shot required.

I don't want to beat this to death, because I do believe in the basic premise that ball-striking is where we truly get better. Thinking back on all my best rounds over the years is when I'm not making mistakes driving the ball and with longer clubs. Hit your longer clubs poorly, and you have disastrous holes. Hit them well, and you have a chance at good/great rounds. Lots of variables on individual rounds and individual courses, but I do agree with that.