[Josh Tarble]

Reading the recent Augusta threads and the "350 yard Par 4s" thread made me ask myself if the 60 yard pitch is dead?

Dead is probably too harsh of a word...as it will always be essential in recovery shots and par 5s and etc.  But do the lack of drive-and-pitch holes at Augusta and other tournament venues and many architects ceasing to design them mean 60 yard pitch shots are just too easy? 

In my opinion, I think the short pitch is one of the harder shots in golf.  It actually requires touch and mastery of how the club will interact with the turf.  For good players, why is this a question not asked of their games anymore?  Is it too hard to design an interesting drive-and-pitch hole? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Reading the recent Augusta threads and the "350 yard Par 4s" thread made me ask myself if the 60 yard pitch is dead?

Josh,

I debated how to answer your question and decided not to introduce the "moron" label.

When's the last time you hit a 60 yard pitch ?
For me it was last weekend.
And, I'll probably hit more this weekend.

If it's dead, nobody has bothered to tell it so.

Dead is probably too harsh of a word...as it will always be essential in recovery shots and par 5s and etc.  But do the lack of drive-and-pitch holes at Augusta and other tournament venues and many architects ceasing to design them mean 60 yard pitch shots are just too easy? 

In my opinion, I think the short pitch is one of the harder shots in golf.  It actually requires touch and mastery of how the club will interact with the turf.  For good players, why is this a question not asked of their games anymore?  Is it too hard to design an interesting drive-and-pitch hole? 

[Paul Gray]

I think it's more a lack of thought than it being too easy. Maybe it's too easy on a lush, over watered PGA Tour course, but watch the errors from 60 yards out at TOC and you'll come to a different conclusion.

[RJ_Daley]

While I haven't been to a PGA event in a few years, I always spend some time watching the pros on the practice range.  If the shot is dead, they sure spend a lot of time practicing the pitch to 50-100 yards.  When they do have one, they tend to show much wizardry.  Look how they can clip it and have it bounce once and stop on a dime, or even back up a bit from that shorter distance rather than a full trapped iron that they routinely back up.  And, many seem to be able to make it bounce with a desired tendency left or right.  I don't think it is a dead lost art. 

I don't know about you fellows, but I still enjoy my time spent at the short game pitching green at courses where provided.  Luckily, ours here in my town where I play most has a very nice pitching green w/a high and low bunker practice area.

Perhaps the better question is:  Is the 50-60yd bump with a fw wood or hybrid club along a short clipped approach turf, dead?

[Peter Pallotta]

Is it dead?

God, I hope so! 

But my fear is that it's just sleeping - playing possum, and always ready to jump up and bite the average golfer on the ass!

The odds (and my skill level) tell me to lay up on Par 5s, but I'm scared that my lay-up might bound along and leave me 60 instead of 100 yards, so i never do.  I almost always blast away with a 3 wood...not caring where it goes as long as it's not there!

On the other hand, on par 4s when I'm in the trees off the tee, I'm rarely 'brave' about it or try the miracle recovering; I just pitch out sideways....and then have like a 4 iron left, which even that is preferable to the alternative...

[Paul Gray]

Perhaps the better question is:  Is the 50-60yd bump with a fw wood or hybrid club along a short clipped approach turf, dead?

I suppose that's inadvertently the point I addressed.

[David Kelly]

Dead is probably too harsh of a word...as it will always be essential in recovery shots and par 5s and etc.  But do the lack of drive-and-pitch holes at Augusta and other tournament venues and many architects ceasing to design them mean 60 yard pitch shots are just too easy?  

Which architects are ceasing to design drive and pitch holes?

The course I play most of my golf at is a relatively recent, much heralded design and I routinely face a 60 yard approach on holes 1, 3, 9, 12, and 14 and people who hit the ball farther than me also face it on holes 5, 10, and 13.

[Josh Tarble]

Clearly, "dead" was the wrong word for my question.

I'm just wondering, based off Augusta and many modern courses, if it's been deemed the 60 yard pitch is too easy.  Clearly, Augusta thinks it's too easy as there is only one hole that the players may face this kind of shot (unless something has gone wrong on the previous shot). 

The two modern courses a frequent have numerous holes with 9, 8 and 7 iron approaches, maybe a couple long irons and MAYBE one less than 100 yard shot.  As referenced in the 350 yard par 4 thread, C&C frequently do not build these holes, rather opting for very short (less than 310 yards) or very long (over 420 yard) par 4s.  So, have some decided the pitch is too easy to ask in an examination of a player? 

Or, are designers assuming players will face short pitches in numerous other situations, so why design specifically to that type of shot?

[Howard Riefs]

Josh,

I debated how to answer your question and decided not to introduce the "moron" label.

When's the last time you hit a 60 yard pitch ?
For me it was last weekend.
And, I'll probably hit more this weekend.

If it's dead, nobody has bothered to tell it so.

Hit the ball 350 yards off the tee like Josh and you may hit fewer 60 yard shots.

[Jason Thurman]

I don't think it's dead, though I also play most of my golf at a 91 year old course. It does seem like there's a trend in modern design toward 400+ yard holes and sub-330 yard holes.

To play Devil's Advocate, maybe there's some good reason for that. Dave Pelz's work was really revolutionary in the '70s and '80s and the reality is that most pros can now dial in distances within 3 yards at will from inside 100 yards. It's incredible, and yet testing that skill stringently doesn't make for very compelling or comprehensively testing tournaments. Meanwhile, the average player struggles mightily with that shot and still ends up with plenty of them simply because he isn't as good a ballstriker and thus must lay up on par 5s and often has pitch shots left on par 4s or even par 3s. Based on those facts, there's a good argument to be made that architects don't need to purposefully design for 60 yard shots. Great players aren't tested by them and average players will manufacture the opportunity to hit them by virtue of their inconsistency.

Still, I get tired of the endless barrage of 450 yard holes with the occasional "What a great drivable par 4 this is, Johnny!" that we see on Tour. We need more holes like the 15th at Erin Hills in modern golf - holes where no one knows the right strategy off the tee because the short length that's really too long to drive means almost anything is in play (except 8 iron, Patrick Cantlay).

[Bill_McBride]

Josh,

I debated how to answer your question and decided not to introduce the "moron" label.

When's the last time you hit a 60 yard pitch ?
For me it was last weekend.
And, I'll probably hit more this weekend.

If it's dead, nobody has bothered to tell it so.

Hit the ball 350 yards off the tee like Josh and you may hit fewer 60 yard shots.

Except on those pesky 410 yard par 4s!

[Brent Hutto]

As my teaching-pro buddy puts it...

If you'd rather lay up to 120 yards than 60 yards because you hit it closer from 120 than from 60 then you need to go practice your 60 yard wedge shots.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Josh,

I debated how to answer your question and decided not to introduce the "moron" label.

When's the last time you hit a 60 yard pitch ?
For me it was last weekend.
And, I'll probably hit more this weekend.

If it's dead, nobody has bothered to tell it so.

Hit the ball 350 yards off the tee like Josh and you may hit fewer 60 yard shots.

Howard,

I take no delight in pitching back out of the woods, or reteeing when the ball goes out of bounds.

If Josh drives the ball 350 then he'll need that 60 yard pitch for all those 410 yard holes he plays.

[Mark McKeever]

I had a 60 yard pitch yesterday that I made an ass of myself on.  I feel like I don't hit enough of them.

[Niall C]

The premise behind the OP question seems to be that we all consistantly hit the ball the same distance. There doesn't seem to be any allowance for ability, form, weather (wind) and course condition (amount of run), therefore to assume no one will ever have a 60 yard pitch on any particular hole seems ridiculous. Just my opinion.

Niall

[Josh Tarble]

Still, I get tired of the endless barrage of 450 yard holes with the occasional "What a great drivable par 4 this is, Johnny!" that we see on Tour. We need more holes like the 15th at Erin Hills in modern golf - holes where no one knows the right strategy off the tee because the short length that's really too long to drive means almost anything is in play (except 8 iron, Patrick Cantlay).

This is kind of what I'm getting at.  I know not everyone hits the ball the same distance and conditions are going to be variable.  But I am just seeing a lack of 330 - 370 yard par 4s in modern golf.  I think if properly designed, they can be some of the most interesting holes on a course and mentally some of the most difficult (because you expect to make birdie).  Hence, the original question in that I believe it's become almost something of a lost art.  Certainly most of you disagree.

Here's what I'm talking about.  Purgatory Golf Club is a place I frequent, one of the better offerings in my area.  Just ignore the Purgatory Tees, they're dumb.  I typically play Black or Blue tees.  2 holes of that length from Blue set and 0 from the Black.   

[BCowan]

I played Purgatory on Easter for the very first time 

   The course was in very good shape for April.  I know exactly what you are saying, too many 450 yard holes.  I like more extremes 490 par 4s, and 340 yard par 4's if land works.  I have noticed more drivable par 4's becoming popular, usually they are done poorly IMHO. 

[Paul Gray]

Niall,

Absolutely right in my opinion and just serves as further reasoning as to why, above all else, the land should dictate the length of a whole.

Every course on the planet is unique to the individual playing it.

I often wonder what game people are playing when they flatly announce that a hole is "just a hybrid and a wedge." For who exactly, at what time of the year, with the wind coming from where?

[BCowan]

I think it's more a lack of thought than it being too easy. Maybe it's too easy on a lush, over watered PGA Tour course, but watch the errors from 60 yards out at TOC and you'll come to a different conclusion.

+1

As my teaching-pro buddy puts it...

If you'd rather lay up to 120 yards than 60 yards because you hit it closer from 120 than from 60 then you need to go practice your 60 yard wedge shots.

That is because you can put more spin on a ball from 120 yards, depending on where the hole is, 120 yards maybe a smarter lay up!  This applies to the 20 handi too. 

[Phil McDade]

Still, I get tired of the endless barrage of 450 yard holes with the occasional "What a great drivable par 4 this is, Johnny!" that we see on Tour. We need more holes like the 15th at Erin Hills in modern golf - holes where no one knows the right strategy off the tee because the short length that's really too long to drive means almost anything is in play (except 8 iron, Patrick Cantlay).

This is kind of what I'm getting at.  I know not everyone hits the ball the same distance and conditions are going to be variable.  But I am just seeing a lack of 330 - 370 yard par 4s in modern golf.  

Josh:

You do realize you are an outlier in the way you play the game, right? By your own admission, you play from a set of tees at Purgatory that run --probably on average -- around 7,000 yards. That's not where most people play from. From my perspective -- typical hack -- I'd play a combination of the white and green tees, or a course around 6,000 yards. From those tees, I find six or seven holes that could potentially lead to a pitch of around 60 yards.

You're seeing a lack of 330-370 yard par 4s because of the tees you play from, not the design of the course.

[Jud_T]

I prefer to lay up to 263, cause that's a perfect 3-finger 4-wood for me.

The 60 yard pitch is dead because of 1) unimaginitive design 2) 6 sets of tee boxes 3) courses built on land not suited to the purpose and 4) maintenance that values courses looking more like a suburban lawn than a F&F golf surface.

[Brent Hutto]

A 20-handicapper who is depending on controlling how much a 120-yard shot spins is going to be one severely disappointed 20-handicapper.

From 120 yards a 20-handicapper is trying to get the ball to end up on the putting surface. And if it gets within 25 feet of the hole, that's a 90th percentile shot. Spin is a "take what you get" type of thing for 20-handicappers. Especially 20-handicappers hitting an 8-iron or 9-iron from that distance.

[BCowan]

A 20-handicapper who is depending on controlling how much a 120-yard shot spins is going to be one severely disappointed 20-handicapper.

From 120 yards a 20-handicapper is trying to get the ball to end up on the putting surface. And if it gets within 25 feet of the hole, that's a 90th percentile shot. Spin is a "take what you get" type of thing for 20-handicappers. Especially 20-handicappers hitting an 8-iron or 9-iron from that distance.

Brent, going by experience and caddying for the 20 handi.  When I got them to lay up to their full wedge shot, they did much better than from 60 yards.  They limited their chances of boning the shot over the green from 60 yards. 

[BCowan]

''You're seeing a lack of 330-370 yard par 4s because of the tees you play from, not the design of the course.''

Phil,

  In the Memorial tournament, which plays 7200+.  The 3rd hole used to be or still is the hardest on the course and it was 350 yards long.  I think Purgatory was designed to be the Bethpage Black of Indy (just a hunch). 

[Phil McDade]

''You're seeing a lack of 330-370 yard par 4s because of the tees you play from, not the design of the course.''

Phil,

  In the Memorial tournament, which plays 7200+.  The 3rd hole used to be or still is the hardest on the course and it was 350 yards long.  I think Purgatory was designed to be the Bethpage Black of Indy (just a hunch). 

I get that.....but the course does offer plenty of holes in the 330-370 yard range that could lead to 60-yard pitches; it's that Josh chooses not to play them. Maybe those holes aren't as "good" or "challenging" or "interesting" at those distances, but that's a design fault then, isn't it? After all, there are dull and easy 60-yard pitch shots and ones that offer more challenge.

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