Alternate design: 12 at ANGC as a Biarritz

[Jim Nugent]

Photo's can be deceptive, but looking at the picture below gave me a thought about #12 at ANGC...



From this angle, the green site looks like a natural for a modified Biarritz green.  The swale would run between the current green and the 13th tee.  The back part is where #13 tee now rests, where the players in the picture are standing.)

Instead of lining up directly with the tee, like nearly all Biarritz greens do, this one would angle off to the right at about a 45 degree angle.  Looks like it would take a pretty imaginative shot to get to the back pin, which may be around 180-190 yards from the tee.

While this never happens, it would make the hole play radically different during various rounds of the tournament.   

[Mark_Fine]

Jim,
As you say, this likely won’t happen on this hole at Augusta (never know) but it happens all the time in green committee meetings around the country.  An idea is born, an architect (sometimes) is called in to help oversee the changes, and then someone like me gets called to try to figure out what was once there and bring it all back again.  The circle of life 

[Evan_Green]

From this angle, the green site looks like a natural for a modified Biarritz green.  The swale would run between the current green and the 13th tee.  The back part is where #13 tee now rests, where the players in the picture are standing.)

Jim - what would you do with #13 tee then?

[Tom_Doak]

Jim,
As you say, this likely won’t happen on this hole at Augusta (never know) but it happens all the time in green committee meetings around the country.  An idea is born, an architect (sometimes) is called in to help oversee the changes, and then someone like me gets called to try to figure out what was once there and bring it all back again.  The circle of life 

Exactly.  So if you don't want Mark messing with Augusta, don't propose this change   

[Sven Nilsen]

From this angle, the green site looks like a natural for a modified Biarritz green.  The swale would run between the current green and the 13th tee.  The back part is where #13 tee now rests, where the players in the picture are standing.)

Jim - what would you do with #13 tee then?

You're concerned about the 13th?


I'm worried what kind of island Jim is going to have to build in Rae's Creek to locate the 12th tee in order to create the angle he wants for a Biarritz.

[Jim Nugent]

Sven, the tee stays where it is now.  The green angles away, kind of like a reverse Redan, but with a Biarritz-type swale. 

Evan, 13 tee moves behind the new section of 12 green.  Driving off 13 is only an issue with a back pin on 12.  The logistics should not be hard to work out. 

Of course this is fantasy.  I wonder how the hole would play though?     

[Kalen Braley]

Great Idea Jim,


Given the tee sheet probably isn't packed for normal ANGC play anyways, the right hand pin wouldn't be an issue with 13 tee.
And I'm guessing the vast majority of members ain't getting home in two anyways, so would it really hurt to play from that back tee?


I like it!! 

[mike_beene]

Tom, is the 9 tee at Bel-air still hitting over 8 green? The angle is a little different but they are waiting in shots all the time so what's one more. I still vote no. And I have just as much vote as every member I know.

[Jeff_Brauer]

On one hand, a Biarritz is a nice idea for a short par 3, which tend to ball mark a lot, so a larger green with smaller targets is pretty decent fit on many courses.  Or, any wide green split into 2-4 sections to increase the need for accuracy.


On the other hand, this green does have multiple aim points/targets.  Also, a green only needs to do one thing well to make a great hole, and this one is already great, due to creek carry and shallow green which fits the available site.  A bigger green wouldn't. 


The water carry and shallow green is enough, adding another feature here would be a waste.  More contrived greens are generally best reserved for open sits without the natural features to provide challenge.


Add in tradition and history, and obviously it would never be done, but even conceptually, it is at best unnecessary.


Sorry if this seems too direct rebuttal and rude. Just IMHO.

[Peter Pallotta]

Jeff - reading your post I thought, yeah, and if it *had* been a Biarritz all these years imagine how many fewer bogeys Jack would've made on the 12th. He seemed always to 'play it safe' by making sure he was never short -- the result being that he must've been in that back bunker more than anyone in the history of the Masters....and then rarely got up and down from there. In '86, the bogey made him mad; in '98 it made him sad. 

[Blake Conant]

14 at Stoatin Brae is loosely modeled after 12 at augusta.  There's a little flat spot just beyond 13 green at SB where you can play 14 on the angle you're talking about from about 180 yds.  I played from there in the dirt a couple times, and I didn't mind it as a one off, but the extra 30 yards makes it pretty penal, particularly when considering a cross wind to such a narrow green.  You wouldn't give up playing it as designed just for the sake of a different angle.

[Peter Flory]

Jeff - reading your post I thought, yeah, and if it *had* been a Biarritz all these years imagine how many fewer bogeys Jack would've made on the 12th. He seemed always to 'play it safe' by making sure he was never short -- the result being that he must've been in that back bunker more than anyone in the history of the Masters....and then rarely got up and down from there. In '86, the bogey made him mad; in '98 it made him sad.

I actually didn't know or remember that Jack Nicklaus beat Tiger Woods (the defending champ) at that Masters.  I'm assuming that is the only time that Jack ever was in the same tournament as Tiger and outscored him.  Would have been astronomical odds on that prop bet. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Peter - yes, one of the reasons I'm convinced that Augusta is a top-flight *design*, ie that at 58, after a recent hip replacement, and in wet conditions without much roll/distance, JN could still find a way to 'play the course' well enough for a (IIRC) a T-5. The one main difference that I saw -- and as per the differing reactions to his bogey on 12 -- was that in 86 Jack still believed he could win, while in 98 he didn't.
P

[Kalen Braley]

I know we have a lot of talented Photoshop peeps on this site, which certainly excludes me.....<hint, hint>


While you won't get any money, I'm guessing you'll gain total consciousness for your efforts at some point... 

[Jeff Schley]

Peter - yes, one of the reasons I'm convinced that Augusta is a top-flight *design*, ie that at 58, after a recent hip replacement, and in wet conditions without much roll/distance, JN could still find a way to 'play the course' well enough for a (IIRC) a T-5. The one main difference that I saw -- and as per the differing reactions to his bogey on 12 -- was that in 86 Jack still believed he could win, while in 98 he didn't.
P

My favorite masters as I remember pulling so hard for him, similar to how I was pulling for Watson in 09 Turnberry.  He had so many close putts! 

"It may sound silly, but I really think he can win this year,"
says Barbara Nicklaus. "At the Masters two years ago, Jack
finished in a tie for sixth, four shots behind Mark O'Meara.
O'Meara had 105 putts and Jack had 115. If Jack had putted
better, he could have won. Check the numbers, but I think that's
correct." Her late father, a math teacher, would be proud. Her
numbers are exactly correct.