Great courses BECAUSE of their trees!

[Ulrich Mayring]

I think this tree at Hoge Kleij is pretty sound strategically, it is just too large. Maybe cutting it back would solve all problems.

Ulrich

[David Davis]

I realize it sounds like I'm against trees on golf courses but I'm definitely not. Not at all. After all I'm from Oregon and we love us some trees there, we hug them too, or so I'm told. I just think they shouldn't take over courses completely. I really like trees on Bandon Trails for example, also on courses like Pumpkin Ridge, Baltusrol, Somerset Hills, West Sussex and many other courses I've played.

Lou, I really played very well at Sahalee with all those trees and on a couple occasions proved that trees are more air than bark somehow but it felt a bit strange to me and if I could hit the ball on the intended line off the tee like you can then I might not even mind when they completely take over a course.

I'd love to bring you to a course in The Netherlands called Nunspeet and see what you thought of that. I'm sure you would still be unfazed in your play but somehow that has always gone too far for me.

I will say one thing for certain, I'm against trees on links courses!

Back to my original statement that could be further clarified.

I would still argue that the great courses are great because of the great architecture, not because of the trees that happen to be there and while they can enhance the experience, create strategy and add to the challenge, the courses are not great because of the trees.

[Sean_A]

Swinley Forest. Go see it and tell me I'm wrong.

How do the trees transform Swinley into something special?

Ciao

[Jim Hoak]

My opinion is undoubtedly colored by the fact that I grew up on this course, but Wakonda Club in Des Moines, Iowa (where the US Amateur was held in the early '60's) has the most beautiful trees I have ever seen on a golf course.  Of course, anything can grow well in the good, rich Iowa soil, but the Wakonda trees--mainly oaks--are healthy, gorgeous and integral to the golf course.

[Bill Brightly]

Disclaimer- have not been on site.

Obviously ANGC can stand on its own without the trees, but some positives that they provide:

 But I think the trees help make Augusta great. Also, pine needles! You can't have the pine straw without pine trees!

Alex,

What is the big deal about pine straw? Do you think it is a hazard of some sort? Man, give me a clean pine straw lie any day over a random lie in the woods or heavy rough. I can make the ball move any way I need off pine straw...

[Alex Miller]

Disclaimer- have not been on site.

Obviously ANGC can stand on its own without the trees, but some positives that they provide:

 But I think the trees help make Augusta great. Also, pine needles! You can't have the pine straw without pine trees!

Alex,

What is the big deal about pine straw? Do you think it is a hazard of some sort? Man, give me a clean pine straw lie any day over a random lie in the woods or heavy rough. I can make the ball move any way I need off pine straw...

It's iconic. I know it's not a big deal back east, but at least from a playability standpoint it creates more excitement. As you say there is better opportunity for recovery than heavy rough! Thanks for helping make my point!

[Chris Cupit]

Prairie Dunes is one my favorite courses, with one of its more memorable features being the many cottonwood trees dotted throughout. I wouldn't attribute its greatness specifically to the presence of the trees, but they do add a distinct flavor to the course, compared to some of the other great prairie links I've played.

The 12th, for example, employs the trees in the strategy of the hole. See Ran's review ... http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/prairie-dunes/prairie-dunes-pg-iii/

OK, I may get some grief for this and I will concede this is a MAJOR nitpick of a truly great course that I have had the privlege to play but the hole pictured (12 if I remember correctly ?) may have been my least favorite because of the trees.  The cottonwoods seemed out of place compared to the rest of the course to me.

My thought is that I would eliminate every tree on the left side of this hole.  I think then the large tree on the right (which dominates play already)  combined with a new opened up area of bunkers flanked by native grasses changes a very penal hole into a much more strategic one.

With the left trees removed there is an actual incentive to play close to the left bunkers and native area in order to have a less obstruced approach shot.  

As it is, the trees encourage many players to lay well back off the teee (unless you are into a good wind and need driver).  With some "breathing space" more driveres may be used but more importantly, the absolutely beautiful bunkers on the left become more visible and are more impactful on the hole and its strategy.

Just a thought.

Plus, removing the trees here doesn't change too much--it is still a demanding and relatively narrow (given the wind) driving course.

[Jim Hoak]

Leaving aside location and impact on the hole, not all trees are created equal.  In my opinion, cottonwoods have no place on a golf course.  They are basically ugly and dirty.  For the classic courses in the upper part of the country, nothing beats oaks!

[Frank Pont]

Swinley Forest. Go see it and tell me I'm wrong.

How do the trees transform Swinley into something special?

Ciao

They are a beautiful decor, never come into play, just as Colt liked it.
However, they do block some nice long outside views like at hole 8 and left of 16, and the view on the green from the tee at hole 9....

[Tim Leahy]

Although Olympic was built witbout the trees it has only one fairway bunker so unless they were removed it had to designed with trees in mind.

[Adam Lawrence]

Swinley Forest. Go see it and tell me I'm wrong.

How do the trees transform Swinley into something special?

Ciao

They play an important part in its ambience and beauty. Two aspects that make the place so special. Remove them and it would not be the same place. The fact that they don't impact on the architecture is a bonus. The same goes for Sunningdale Old.

I hear you, but I don't think that is the same as saying it is great because of its trees. Of course, if the trees were removed it would be different. But would it not be great? Can't see it myself. And personally I think Sunningdale Old would be significantly better if there were a massive tree cull.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Swinley Forest. Go see it and tell me I'm wrong.

How do the trees transform Swinley into something special?

Ciao

They play an important part in its ambience and beauty. Two aspects that make the place so special. Remove them and it would not be the same place. The fact that they don't impact on the architecture is a bonus. The same goes for Sunningdale Old.

I hear you, but I don't think that is the same as saying it is great because of its trees. Of course, if the trees were removed it would be different. But would it not be great? Can't see it myself. And personally I think Sunningdale Old would be significantly better if there were a massive tree cull.

Well, yeah - it's a pretty restrictive question I guess. I think the trees are fairly integral to the greatness of Swinley - not the architecture of course - but the overall package. Remove them and would it still be great? Well, it would not be the special place it is now. I struggle with the term "great" anyway...

I don't know Swinley but I would have thought that from all the Heathlands, St Georges Hill might be worst affected by mass tree removal... Because it was designed from the forest first of all and it was designed with a lot of large houses placed (and hidden well) just off some of the fairways.

[Sean_A]

Swinley is an interesting case.  Playing around the small wood is quite clever, yet there are some vistas which should be on offer now closed off by trees.  I wouldn't be surprised if there are twice as many trees today than what Colt envisioned.  I guess its also a matter of opinion if one likes the ridge above #4 practically barren or full of trees as is now the case.  Another example such as #17, it would be grand if there were no trees, but as is a screen of trees work magnificently.  #9 is also a case in point, the straightish line of trees down the right is unsightly imo.  There are views that way which could be uncovered.  Imagine also if when looking back from the 15th tee toward the holes on the far side of the course - the view if the trees were better managed should be oustanding.  So I guess I agree with you in principle, trees help make the Swinley experience, but they also detract from what could be a better experience.

Ally

I think St Georges Hill is made better by the trees because its a housing estate course.  They are managed exceptionally well though.

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

I was thinking today and I imagine this has been discussed before but can anyone think of or name courses that are great, or even good because of their trees?

David,

Presently, I can't think of any "courses" that are great because of their trees.

I think there are a good number of "holes" that are great because of a tree or trees

Or does that even exist?

If they do, their names escape me at the moment

Peter,

Crump did essentially what you attributed to modern day architects.
He essentially "bulldozed" or cleared the land at the very beginning.
That's why PV subsequently embarked upon a massive tree planting program.

John Mayhugh,

Thanks for the photos, they are worth a thousand words.

Essex Fells in NJ had a similar situation with a tree in the fairway years ago.

I know other clubs where a tree or trees has/have matured over the years and in doing so have transitioned from a strategic feature to an architectural and playing impediment.

The problem in many cases is that the tree/s has/have taken on a life of their own, a life detached from architectural sanity.

The test would seem to be, if you were building the course today, would you leave the tree in it's current location ?

At my home course there were five holes where a tree or two provided the strategic value to the holes

[archie_struthers]

 


Mac , Pine Valleys's trees are more like a single organism that encircles the holes and property . There really are no specimen trees that impact shots hit from the fairways to the greens with the exception of an outgrowth on 11 if you drive it too far .

The only other tree that impacts play individually would be the small aiming  pine tree on #4 tee shot at the corner of the large bunker.

[MMcCollins]

I think everyone here is forgetting about Blind Brook in Purchase, NY.  I know little about the place, played only twice, but know 20+ members and all everyone talks about is the trees.  The tress on the property are one of the most valuable collection of trees anywhere in the world.  They protect them like no other.  More insight from others is welcomed, but that HAS to be #1 on the list.  I guess the title does say great courses, but its still pretty fun and good enough to be listed.

[Terry Lavin]

I think that I shall never see a course that's great because of its trees.

[PGertner]

Let's see….my clubhouse driveways and plantings….and the trees in the park across the street. 

Other than that, I got nothing. 

Patrick Gertner
Potowomut Golf Club
East Greenwich, RI 

[Joey Chase]

To me, the course that truly base's it's existence on trees more than any other it is Valderrama.  Especially on the front nine the cork oaks are beyond integral to the course.  I wouldn't call the course great, but definitely good.  They have some of the most beautiful trees I have ever seen on a course, even if they are too close to the corridors.  I would love to see the course after they have removed the cork, I imagine a sea of blood red trunks.

[Sean Leary]

Prairie Dunes is one my favorite courses, with one of its more memorable features being the many cottonwood trees dotted throughout. I wouldn't attribute its greatness specifically to the presence of the trees, but they do add a distinct flavor to the course, compared to some of the other great prairie links I've played.

The 12th, for example, employs the trees in the strategy of the hole. See Ran's review ... http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/prairie-dunes/prairie-dunes-pg-iii/

OK, I may get some grief for this and I will concede this is a MAJOR nitpick of a truly great course that I have had the privlege to play but the hole pictured (12 if I remember correctly ?) may have been my least favorite because of the trees.  The cottonwoods seemed out of place compared to the rest of the course to me.

My thought is that I would eliminate every tree on the left side of this hole.  I think then the large tree on the right (which dominates play already)  combined with a new opened up area of bunkers flanked by native grasses changes a very penal hole into a much more strategic one.

With the left trees removed there is an actual incentive to play close to the left bunkers and native area in order to have a less obstruced approach shot.  

As it is, the trees encourage many players to lay well back off the teee (unless you are into a good wind and need driver).  With some "breathing space" more driveres may be used but more importantly, the absolutely beautiful bunkers on the left become more visible and are more impactful on the hole and its strategy.

Just a thought.

Plus, removing the trees here doesn't change too much--it is still a demanding and relatively narrow (given the wind) driving course.

I agree. The right trees are necessary because of the prevailing wind but the left ones can all go as far as I am concerned....I also think that more people would try to drive the green if the left trees were removed, which I think is fun.

[cary lichtenstein]

I remember great trees on the back nine to Pasitempo. I love big old Cypress trees in SF.

[Connor Dougherty]

I've returned from a long hiatus!

We've departed from talking about Harbour Town, but I do think it is a golf course that is made vastly better by its tree plantings. I was trying to think of why that was, and looking through my pictures, I think I reached a conclusion. Take this picture of the 9th as an example:


Note how the trees are maintained and how they grow. They are far more obtrusive for the golfer who hits the high ball (usually a better player) but have far less impact on the weaker golfer, who is less likely to get his golf ball to the height which the trees truly obstruct the golf shot. In that sense, it forces the better player not only to position himself better, but when in the wrong position, it makes him shape the ball. Meanwhile, the weaker golfer still faces these obstacles, but to a lesser extent. Rather than shaping the ball around the obstacles, he has to skirt them. Note in the picture above, the tree on the left obstructs a direct angle to the pin with a high ball flight, but not a lower one.

If the trees blew down in a hurricane, the course may still play well, but I truly feel that the tree plantings add character to the golf course.

[Jim Nelson]

"It's like that other course, Olympic-Lake, with all those uphills and downhills and sidehill lies, and with all that lush vegetation/trees (only there, after all, because of the naturally damp and mild climatic conditions of the region) -- oh, what a waste, for which we can only curse Mr. Watson."

PPallotta -

While I am a little unsure of the scope of your sarcasm, it should be noted that the vast majority of the trees on both the Lake and Ocean courses at the Olympic Club were not there in the 1920's when the courses were first built. Based on a number of aerial photos in the clubhouse, the property back then was actually "natural and windswept."

While it might look like the Lake Course was routed thru a forest, that is not the case. The course was there before the trees were planted.

DT

      

Seems possible that Olympic Lake has resisted and defeated the bombers because of the trees.  Imagine #5 without them.  Trying to cut the corner is hazardous, just ask Lee Westwood.  Without the trees on the corner, modern equipment and balls would allow players to cut the corner easily.  You pretty much have to accept a long shot into the green, or take the risk and hit a perfect cut.  Pull it off, great.  But also remember the fairway cants right to left on the left to right dogleg.  A par on #5 always feels good.  Without the trees… meh.  

[Jason Thurman]

Here we have a perfectly reasonable smug GCA anti-tree thread. It has all the thinly-veiled clamoring you would expect when the "make every hole really easy strategic!" crowd gets going. The original poster even disclosed his personal biases by explaining how he started thinking about how much he hates trees after he recently had to interface with one when he hit his perfect drive "right up the middle and was very happy with it until I arrived at my ball to find in the middle of the fairway and right in front of the green this enormously huge tree." Replace the word "tree" in that sentence with "bunker" and he gets laughed off the site. But we're talking about a tree, not a bunker, and trees being used to drive strategy and angles is bad architecture. In fact, trees are not even part of the architecture of a course at all, as proved by this golden line offered later:

"I would still argue that the great courses are great because of the great architecture, not because of the trees that happen to be there..."

We had a nice thread going, replete with photos backing up discussion about how all the armchair architects on this site could improve some of the best courses in the world if you just handed them a chainsaw and let them go out and fix things. And then some young dude from Oregon had to return from hiatus and ruin it all...

Connor Dougherty doesn't know this thread is a damn show. He thinks it's a damn fight. And his post is one of the most insightful and observant things I've read on this site in a long time.

[Ari Techner]

My vote goes to Eugene Country Club.  The course would be good without the trees but all the different variety of trees including some old growth red woods and some other incredible specimens of trees greatly enhance the course IMO.  There are people who go there specifically to see the trees and don't even play the course.   I have never seen a course with such interesting trees that also help define the character of the course.