[Jeff_Brauer]

Bcowan,

So, your girlfriend is saying size matters?  Who knew? (insert smiley) Hope you didn't mis-speak and tell her you wished her cups were bigger and would make play more fun......tip your waitresses folks!

In my recent very fun and positive big cup experience, I agree it wasn't really just that.  It was the shorter, but fully featured par 3 course, the odd number of holes, faster game, and fun of playing a different game, but MD really tries to promote new golfers, making the whole experience something they can understand, grasp, and not be daunted by.  And, there were still some old school golf factors involved - I was playing with good friends, weather was perfect, small stakes gambling, and just the one time difference from playing "standard" golf.

I have always also had the untested theory that golf could increase popularity with all sorts of other variations, based on schedule, which of course, it has always done to some extent, with ladies day, etc.  I can see some courses doing "large cup Tuesdays" or "Gangsome Wednesdays (large group play) couples Thursday, (or for the racier, "Mistress Mondays) Match Play, Scrambles, pick your partner, stranger golf where you must play with someone new, etc, or any other number of interesting events to vary the game up just a bit, not change its entire core.

So, I agree, just putting big cups out there on a traditional course wouldn't increase golfers trying the game out.  For borderline golfers (well, not a marketing term the game is likely to embrace!) they would have to have some interest anyway, and the real key is to reduce uncertainty and fear that many have in taking up golf.

Which is to say, the best way is still to have family members or friends who play and help introduce you to the game.  But, I still think making it more of a hoop and holler type experience will perhaps widen the appeal.  Speed play with shorter courses, etc. as mentioned.  And, I still think some more high tech, such as instant shot feedback via chips in the ball or other, will appeal to the video game generation who crave instant feedback.  

Of course, also not the type of thing traditionalists hanging around here want to hear, but just me wondering how golf may be forced to adapt to changing times.  I think it has always reflected the culture and its values, and to the extent those seem to have changed, along with the life dynamic (less time, more tech, etc.) I think it will change somehow, and may have to change to stay relevant to any meaningful % of the population.

Of course, I really don't know, and also, still sorry for thread jacking this one a bit from Mike Nuzzo's original more specific intent.  Oh well, it happens.  Just musing here.

[jeffwarne]

I just txted my GF who is at work and asked her if a 15 inch cup would encourage her to take up golf.  her reply:

"That is just dumb.  People who don't play golf aren't playing because of the size of the hole in my opinion''.

hasn't she been telling you size doesn't matter for years?.....

[Garland Bayley]

If they want to play 15 inch holes, they are welcome to come play my course every frozen or super sloppy wet day in the winter. We have big buckets cut in the fairway short of the green to keep people off the green then.

It's the only way I've broken 80. The single digit handicap that plays with my band of 20 handicappers complains bitterly about us being able to beat him on the big buckets, because we can get up and down far more often than normal.

[Peter Pallotta]

Late to this, haven't read all the responses. My two cents:

I've never met a more forgiving golfer than the beginning golfer. He hacks it around, well aware that he isn't any good; consequently, he expects high scores and doesn't blame the game or certainly the architecture for that. (I've played with beginners on courses with slope ratings from 115 to 145, and their reactions are always the same.) Some come back to play again and again, for lots of reasons I suppose: the walk/exercise, the challenge, the fun of that one great shot. Many others don't, as there are plenty of other things to spend time and money on. But if they don't, it's not because the game is too hard or the architecture is too challenging (or the cup too small). I'm not sure of anything else, but of that I'm pretty sure. Best to frame discussions on this topic around the casual golfer -- and then while we're at it focus on price and time instead.

Peter

[Terry Lavin]

I wouldn't play a game of HORSE at an 8 foot rim and I sure as hell won't putt to a sewer cover.

[jeffwarne]

Don't get me wrong.

I'm all for events where they use 15 inch cups, the same as I enjoy longest drive, closest to the pin, flag tournaments,scrambles etc.

I simply fail to see how larger cups will attract any new players.(or at least no more than any other fun format)

an entertaining format for those who already play, just like all the other formats.
that said, how many times have you been to an outing where it was a scramble and you or someone else was pissed that you didn't get to play your own ball?
How about you show up at Oakmont and they've put in 15 inch holes for the outing to quickly shoo you out of the way.

It just seems like a poor allocation of limited resources.
I'd rather see the resources allocated to to promoting all golf IS, not what it isn't.

[BCowan]

Brauer,

   I'd love to see you go into the inner cities of America's finest and replace the 10ft Basketball hops with 8 ft rims, tell them that you are trying to grow the game.  If you do this, please videotape it for us.  

   Also, I'd love for you to cut all the mickey mouse holes on all the greens, instead of the poor asst keeper who has to cut those with his/her eyes rolling and cursing under their breath.

   As Donald Ross said, beware of the guy with the tape measure.  ''It's in the way that you use it, boy don't you know''- Clapton.

[Carl Johnson]

My first comment, and I've only read a few of the prior ones . . . .  15" cups, it seems to me, would reduce the importance of green strategy, and green strategy should be something much easier for a beginner to learn than hitting the ball long and straight.  So, my answer to bringing more people to the game would be to encourage playing from shorter tees.  Now, that would be a problem for the folks who produce and advertize the "longest ball" and "the long-hitting" driver.  If length was de-emphasized as the essence of golf (which it isn't), I'd think more people might take it up, or keep it up.  That having been said, there are only so many who are going to like to play golf in any event.  I don't like to fish - tried it and don't like it.  Putting a zillion hungry trout in a small pond for me to fish in isn't going to make me like it any better even though I'd "catch" a lot more fish.

[David Kelly]

It looks like the people more open to the idea of 15" cups are those that make their living from the sport.  I've made my peace with the fact that the game has peaked and I'll go down with the ship but I recognize that desperate times call for desperate measures.

[Brent Hutto]

I've got nothing against desperate measures. Just stupid desperate measures with no connection to reality.

If the industry is really that desperate and willing to try anything maybe they could try doing some meaningful market research and finding out what particular barriers are keeping the "next million" from taking up the game. Then hopefully they'll find a couple of those salient barriers that they can actually change.

But I suspect the problem is, to the extent any such research has been done, the industry has not found a way to address the barriers that really matter. So they're moving on to stuff that's easy to change...whether it is a barrier or not. It's a classic mistake, right up there with starting land wars in Asia or going up against a Sicilian when death is on the line.

[David Kelly]

But I suspect the problem is, to the extent any such research has been done, the industry has not found a way to address the barriers that really matter.

I think the industry had a chance to really grow the game in the 80s and 90s and pretty much blew it.  They went for the short money and so we got $195 green fees, 6 month equipment product cycles, golf courses as a real estate feature, CCFADs with miles of concrete so that cart rentals could be a profit center, etc.

[jeffwarne]

Brauer,

   I'd love to see you go into the inner cities of America's finest and replace the 10ft Basketball hops with 8 ft rims, tell them that you are trying to grow the game.  If you do this, please videotape it for us.  

I laughed out loud there-
better yet, 6 foot wide hoops

[Jim_Kennedy]

The slippery slope from 15" cups to.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oQAjtXz-Vc

[jeffwarne]

So yesterday I give a lesson to a dedicated local junior (his birthday present) He's had a rough family life and golf has become his escape.
after working on all facets of his game he mentioned he needed some putting work.
i had a series of appointments afterwards so i suggested he arrive today in the morning and I would look at his putting.
He arrived at 8:30 and I left him alone,then gave him a quick look, followed by a 9 hole match which I barely won by making a 12 foot slider on the last hole.
I suggested a couple of drills and left him to practice.
After a couple of hours he came in and asked what he should do-I said "whatever you want"
He played 15 holes walking and carrying and I saw him and realized he hadn't eaten and got him a sandwich, after which he proceeded to hit balls.

My son then arrived around 4:30 pm and he joined him for 9 more.
After that he played 3 more while my son and another friend waited for my wife to pick them up.

Around 8 o'clock I saw his sister who was picking him up. She mentioned she had seen the article in the NY Times and asked me about it. She said "I though it was a joke"   "I mean how stupid is that?"
She doesn't play golf--so clearly the larger holes don't make her more likely to play, but she seriously wanted to know why they would "change the rules of golf"

many ways to grow the game-but again more important to spend precious and limited resources on things that matter.
Just hate to see the PGA chasing and promoting stupid ideas instead of adding golfers one at a time.

[Peter Pallotta]

Beautiful, Jeff.

Those who mock the rules/tradition forget that there are young people around who believe -- and who want to believe -- in some great and good place where everything is by the book, and where you're treated straight up, and where you are judged not by your past or the things you didn't have but by what you can do, and by what you love and by how hard you work.

I'm glad the young fellow has you in his life. You're giving something far more important than lessons; you're telling him that he matters.

Peter 

[jeffwarne]

Those who mock the rules/tradition forget that there are young people around who believe -- and who want to believe -- in some great and good place where everything is by the book, and where you're treated straight up, and where you are judged not by your past or the things you didn't have but by what you can do, and by what you love and by how hard you work.

+1 Peter.
It's too great a game to dilute to simply add participants.
Lots of things growing fast- drug use,crime, twitter.
Golf is meant to be shared-not grown.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

Time after time after time I've heard GCA's and others indicate that modern equipment, hi-tech, and the distances it's produced, have reduced, if not confined, the defenses to the green end, and now some want to dumb down the green end ?  ?  ?

How moronic is that ?

Why is there a desire on the part of some to dumb down this great game, speculating that doing so will attract more golfers ?

Why would you ruin a great game, a game that's evolved over centuries, a game that we enjoy, exactly as it is, in an attempt to please people who don't even play the game

I already play fast.  I don't need 15 inch cups to speed up my pace.

I already enjoy the present challenge.  I don't need 15 inch cups to gain more enjoyment.

Do the people championing the increase in the size of the hole have a financial interest in doing so ?

Or are they championing this moronic cause because they're well intentioned and charitable ? 

The goofy golf course are already being played, it's called miniature golf..... and............ you can play it at night.

Wait, I have the solution.

At dusk, take out the 4.25 inch cups and put in the 15 inch cups.
Then, and dawn, take out the 15 inch cups and put in the 4.25 inch cups.

Then the champions of this moronic idea can play to their hearts content,  and even engage in "night putting" with the Dean's daughter.

It's a win-win.

[Garland Bayley]

You want to grow the game? Put more golf in golf. Alister MacKenzie wanted the ball to go less far. He wanted to play more golf and walk less. But then that radical idea might put some golf companies out of business. Companies that sell carts so you can drive to that monstrous drive. Companies that sell monstrous drivers to hit those monstrous drives. Companies that sell over-engineered balls that make all that extra walking necessary. Probably even put some GCAs out of business that have been working at lengthening courses.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Garland,

You bring up an interesting and a good point, which is unusual for you

Why is it that the people who tend to present ideas to change the game, at the core, have financial incentives to do so ?

Certainly one couldn't consider their interest in the game to be eleemosynary in nature.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Brauer,

   I'd love to see you go into the inner cities of America's finest and replace the 10ft Basketball hops with 8 ft rims, tell them that you are trying to grow the game.  If you do this, please videotape it for us.

Inner city on what planet?  Whenever I see school playgrounds, I see 6 and 8 ft hoops, I see baseball diamonds at 60' rather than 90' basepaths, and I see reduces size soccer fields.  In every sport, the field is reduced to the abilities of those starting the game.  In addition to Tee it Forward, bigger cups on beginner courses might be an additional way to ease entry into the game.  Many would say golf doesn't do enough for its beginning golfers and we have the special challenge of many newcomers being adults, not kids.

   Also, I'd love for you to cut all the mickey mouse holes on all the greens, instead of the poor asst keeper who has to cut those with his/her eyes rolling and cursing under their breath.

Never said "all" the greens, just 5-10% as a test. 

   As Donald Ross said, beware of the guy with the tape measure.  ''It's in the way that you use it, boy don't you know''- Clapton.

[Garland Bayley]

Brauer,

   I'd love to see you go into the inner cities of America's finest and replace the 10ft Basketball hops with 8 ft rims, tell them that you are trying to grow the game.  If you do this, please videotape it for us.

Inner city on what planet?  Whenever I see school playgrounds, I see 6 and 8 ft hoops, I see baseball diamonds at 60' rather than 90' basepaths, and I see reduces size soccer fields.  In every sport, the field is reduced to the abilities of those starting the game.  In addition to Tee it Forward, bigger cups on beginner courses might be an additional way to ease entry into the game.  Many would say golf doesn't do enough for its beginning golfers and we have the special challenge of many newcomers being adults, not kids.

   Also, I'd love for you to cut all the mickey mouse holes on all the greens, instead of the poor asst keeper who has to cut those with his/her eyes rolling and cursing under their breath.

Never said "all" the greens, just 5-10% as a test. 

   As Donald Ross said, beware of the guy with the tape measure.  ''It's in the way that you use it, boy don't you know''- Clapton.

Jeff,

I don't know your experience, but when I took my young son to play miniature golf, he loved it. And guess what, the holes were standard sized.

As Alister said, the people promoting this idea are vandals.

[Dan Herrmann]

This is the same reason I HATE the fact that highly skilled female athletes still use a tiny basketball.  It's a crock, and is disrespectful to the game and to women.

[Jeff_Brauer]

GJ,

Well, neither my opinion or yours or any related friends are really worthwhile, as they are not standard sample size.  Especially in cases where your son really didn't know there was an option!  

I am merely suggesting that it might be okay for a small number of courses to try this - or other ideas - out, in combo with marketing towards newbies, or many courses try it for special events to see if it really does catch on to bring new folks in the game.  Granted, this was based on me going to such a course, truthfully, with about as negative attitude as those expressed here, and then having more fun than I could imagine, so it, too is one (or maybe 4) opinions.

Your overall miniature golf experience is about right though.  Like I say, I think its a strength of golf that hitting a ball with a stick/club, and or trying to put a ball in a hole (similar to many other sports) is just inherently fun.  If it can morph a bit to appeal to others, that's okay, too.  Not some sign of weakness, just sort of a natural evolution.  Of course, it could be tried, and flop, also a part of evolution!

Nor do I see anyone making a profit as necessarily an evil thing. You would think Pat went all commie on us!  

As for your (and others) idea that limiting ball length to promote more interest in golf,  the satisfaction of golf is hitting good golf shots and one of the biggest satisfactions is hitting it long and straight.  Taking that away primarily to either 1) reduce profits of ball mfgs. or 2) punish tour pros for skill is just crazy.  I think you are wrong.  Hitting the ball too far is a "problem" statistically for 1% or less of players.

Again, if we want to argue special tournament balls, fine. It is also logical (to me) to merely move tournaments to a handful of modern courses of mega length, but that's not what we worry about.  It's about new golfers, golfer retention, etc.  and those are really separate arguments.

And yes, someone who has invested $5-10M in a golf facility wants it to stay open, and doesn't want to go broke (too many do anyway)  If you don't have a dog in the hunt, you can say "let the "marginal golfers" go away, etc.  They can't.

If we want to also argue that 5% of golf courses need to be pitch and putt or have large cups, I would also argue that only 5% of courses really need back tees over 7,000 yards, then okay.  

As I have said before, the basic argument here is whether golf needs to strictly stay to the one rules for all, or more specifically, golf courses that are one size fits all?  I think we do less for beginners (or even casual players who might enjoy an easier challenge) than we should.  Is it really THAT bad to think that making the game more fun (possibly) for the recreational golfer?  That it will ruin golf?  I just don't see it.

Not sure where golf will evolve, but I do know its in for changes, because nothing is immune.  Maybe its just more high tech, and the courses stay the same. 15" cups may never catch on, except as a niche thing.  Seems worth discussing and trying. It seems to me that golf is merely demanding everyone loves it in one specific way, not the way they want to love it and certainly not just the essence of the game, but the rules of the game to a T.  We all know how relationships that force someone to do things turn out.......everyone needs a little flexibility.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Dan,

Just out of curiosity, do you know why the WNBA uses smaller balls, who decided to do it, and if the women playing simply accept it like sheep even though they don't like it?  Have their been any protests by players themselves?  Or do the like a ball that fits their hand size better?  

Not sure, but I can see them as thinking you are just another old white guy telling them how to live up to your standards, which they would also find disrespectful.  (again, I don't know, just wondering based on my experiences......and I hate to sound harsh to you, but it is of course no surprise to know that many women think we are just chauvinist pigs, and don't even know it!)  And, I sort of see that as a problem with our 8M core golfers and the powers that be, and I hear it in responses here.

[Garland Bayley]

Jeff,

It's not just men. And, it's not just golfers.

"Around 8 o'clock I saw his sister who was picking him up. She mentioned she had seen the article in the NY Times and asked me about it. She said "I though it was a joke"   "I mean how stupid is that?"
She doesn't play golf"


And, my son didn't know there was an option to standard sized holes in miniature golf? ?? ?
Miniature golf with 15 inch holes would be par 18 with few bogeys. 

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