[Mike Nuzzo]

Geoff Shackelford posted a blog about the 15" cup.
Wouldn't the 15" cup minimize the strategy of the green, green slopes and features?
Playing the 15" cup would seem to be a race to get near the green - bomb away - as chipping in is far more likely - Paul Runyon like - less strategy off the tee.
Wouldn't the "green" eventually have to get much larger to create a strategy similar to regular golf?
And then wouldn't the "green" need to be more highly maintained?
Seems like a bad long term solution
I say more great pitch-n-putt courses - not that I've ever seen a great one.
Cheers

[Brent Hutto]

I think there are people who spend hour after hour banging drivers at driving ranges but who only occasionally play a round of golf.

This tells me that Pitch-and-Putt courses have an uphill battle for customers. Nobody I know goes somewhere to chip and putt for two hours after work a couple evenings a week, even the guys that are range rats.

People like hitting the ball a long way into open areas. This is the root preference that makes any attempt to grow the game through tiny little limited real estate facilities (whether Pitch-and-Putt, Par 3 or "Executive" layouts). I remember as a beginner I would go to a local Par 3 course but that quickly got Real Old because any errant swing was a lost ball or even a danger to someone on an adjacent hole.

Being able to rear back and give the ball a fair old thump is a very attractive element to golf. Attempts to make the game more accessible by limited or eliminating that element are IMO doomed to fail. If you're not going to be whacking the ball and watching it sail through the sky then best to stick to Putt-Putt and be done.

[George Pazin]

Nobody I know goes somewhere to chip and putt for two hours after work a couple evenings a week, even the guys that are range rats.

The handful of very good - meaning low single digit handicap or better - golfers I know do in fact do this, that is, practice chipping and putting for a few hours a week.

The overall idea seems like one of those things that will blow up due to unintended consequences. I believe there are A LOT of times where golfers are penalized playing in from a poor angle, but don't end up realizing it, because they happen to hit a good shot that overcomes the poor angle. I think a 15" hole would magnify this effect times 100, maybe more.

I posted on another thread a couple days ago that many or most learn the wrong lessons in golf and in life. All a 15" hole would do is magnify - or perhaps cement - those wrong lessons. The green stuff is important, no matter how much the ball strikers don't want it to be.

[Tom_Doak]

I think there are people who spend hour after hour banging drivers at driving ranges but who only occasionally play a round of golf.

Yes but there are a lot of people who only play miniature golf, too.

[SL_Solow]

One of the clubs near my home course experimented with larger cups a couple of falls ago.  Apparently Nicklaus was pushing it.  A group of us visited as our course was in the midst of regrassing our greens.  We found it to be quite strange.  we had a faux hole in one and several pitch/chips hole out.  as reported in a 930's experiment sponsored by Sarazen, good putters still made more putts; the zone where the difference shoed up was merely extended several feet so that missing ,say an 8 footer became like missing a 3 footer.  All in all the game was different.  Had I started with the larger cup, maybe I would have liked it as well but it seemed awfully contrived and didn't change the balance of the game as much as one would think.  Finally, for the average player, I suspect the area where he can most emulate his TV heroes is on the green as it takes less coordination.  Making that part easier won't help as much as we think.

[Thomas Dai]

Nobody I know goes somewhere to chip and putt for two hours after work a couple evenings a week, even the guys that are range rats.

The handful of very good - meaning low single digit handicap or better - golfers I know do in fact do this, that is, practice chipping and putting for a few hours a week...........
........All a 15" hole would do is magnify - or perhaps cement - those wrong lessons. The green stuff is important, no matter how much the ball strikers don't want it to be.

Well said.

Keep working solely on your long game guys coz those folk who do bother to develop and maintain good short game and putting skills (plus course management) are usually more than delighted to take money from the wallets of those who just work on their full-shot game.

atb

[Brent Hutto]

Thomas,

I didn't think we were talking about getting 5-handicappers who want to be 2-handicappers going out to play these Pitch-and-Putt courses. I thought we were talking about getting people who never or rarely set foot on a golf course to play Pitch-and-Putt as a gateway activity.

I'm simply describing what I perceive as the three popular golf-related activities. Playing golf (on a real course), hitting balls on a driving range (mostly with the driver I suspect) and playing Putt-Putt.

A bunch of 80-yard holes with 500 square foot greens and 15" cups, presumably built on an acre or two of land per hole, seems neither fish nor fowl when it comes to the most popular activities. Not to say there isn't a huge untapped market there. But I don't see it any more attractive to beginners than the currently popular alternatives and I truly don't see it being attractive to someone who already plays 30-80 rounds as a supplement.

So Mike, were you thinking practice facility for wanna-be scratch golfers or an alternative activity for those who don't want to or can't get out on a real golf course?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Played the Monarch Dunes challenge course recently.  Had both size cups in their 12 greens (it's a 12 hole par 3 course, but not pitch and putt, the back tee yardages range from 120-240 or so and the greens are designed equal to their full course, not downsized or simplified.

Great fun.  As mentioned above, a wedge in, a few chip ins, and more long putts made.  My take was it was more of the kind of shots that bring golfers back.

While traditional golfers may never like it (although, if I liked it, I suspect some or many others will too) new golfers will probably like it more.  And, getting new golfers in the game is the only strategy really in play here.

[Adrian_Stiff]

15 " CUPS will make the game much quicker. A round could drop nearly an hour. A lot of time is spent on greens and the wilder the greens the slower play will be.

It is not GOLF though so no point in taking in any further, some games you just cant change the rules and associated history.

[Jason Topp]

In Iowa when I grew up, nearly every course held an 8 inch cup event at some point late in the season.  The biggest change was that you wanted to hit your putts more firmly.  A six foot comeback was like a 3 foot putt.  It was easier to chip in. 

I thought it dropped my score 3-4 strokes which was fun, but imposed a unique kind of pressure.  I recall getting psyched out one day and leaving a bunch of putts short.

I think this idea is a dumb one.  The game would be just as difficult, we would just expect to score better.     

[Mike Nuzzo]

I am asking about strategy when it comes to the 15" cup - I say it changes far more than Hack golf anticipates - if it were to miraculously become popular.

I wish I didn't mention the pitch-n-putt
The premise of the 15" cup is to make golf more fun and faster
The guy banging on the range doesn't need it more fun or faster - all they have to do is pick up the ball, give themselves a put, shorten their pre shot routing or play nine holes...
The 15" cup is marketed to the occasional golfer
Why mess with an entire golf course when you can play pitch-n-putt - that is how I started and would still play if one were nearby

Since we're building one an hour away I'll let y'all know when done - not a par 3 course - a pitch-n-putt.
This is for a municipality where we will also rebuild their regular courses greens+

Cheers

[JMEvensky]

I am asking about strategy when it comes to the 15" cup - I say it changes far more than Hack golf anticipates - if it were to miraculously become popular.

I think it makes putting less important. Surprisingly,TMAG is more of a driver company,putter sales being less critical.

Color me cynical.

[Josh Tarble]

I think the 15" cups are dumb.  It still does nothing to address the fact that the full swing is the most difficult part of the game.

15" cups don't do much for the guy or girl that can't hit the ball more than 5 yards off the tee.

[BHoover]

I also think this is a dumb idea.  Why not make the cups as big as basketball hoops and change the name from golf to something else?  Better yet, do away with clubs and throw the ball?

[jeffwarne]

30 inch cups-twice as fun, 45 inchers three times as much fun
or better yet, dig out the entire fairway and call it a 40 yard cup
that will speed things up

to answer Mike's question
I'm not sure someone playing to a 15 inch cups wants compensations to greens to make the game more like "regular golf",or he would play "regular golf"

[Rob Curtiss]

Jeff and Brian,

You guys took the words right of my mouth.

Why are we trying so hard to think up ideas to make the game easier or more friendly.

I understand its a money thing- but no matter what I say or do - My 12 year old son has no interest. He chooses not to play.

To me , with golf, you either love it or hate it. I am not sure you can make people convert.

How about you just go practice-

What is difficult is sometimes more enjoyed- if I stripe a drive down a narrow fairway- it is more enjoyable than hitting one down a 100 yard wide fairway. If I hit an iron shot from a 150 yards out over a bunker to a couple of feet - it is more enjoyable than skulling one up the fairway to a few feet from a 15 inch wide cup that I should make.

The game is supposed to be challenging

[jeffwarne]

Jeff and Brian,

You guys took the words right of my mouth.

Why are we trying so hard to think up ideas to make the game easier or more friendly.

I understand its a money thing- but no matter what I say or do - My 12 year old son has no interest. He chooses not to play.

To me , with golf, you either love it or hate it. I am not sure you can make people convert.

How about you just go practice-

What is difficult is sometimes more enjoyed- if I stripe a drive down a narrow fairway- it is more enjoyable than hitting one down a 100 yard wide fairway. If I hit an iron shot from a 150 yards out over a bunker to a couple of feet - it is more enjoyable than skulling one up the fairway to a few feet from a 15 inch wide cup that I should make.

The game is supposed to be challenging

to take this a step further.
How much would it suck if you played on 15 inch cups with a guy that you regularly beat who holed EVERY single putt from on the green and you barely made anything over 10 feet.
So now you're playing a game that's supposed to be easier and more fun, and you feel like you've got the yips on every putt outside 6 feet -because everybody else is draining long putts

Let's fix the people who play and run golf, not the game

[BCowan]

the funny thing i find is the guys who come up with these ridiculous ideas I wonder if they have ever played a muni or a 9 hole track.  People learning at muni's or through caddying would be offended by these dumb ideas. 

Those are my sentiments 
How about a fresca judge?

[Brent Hutto]

It's all a matter of perspective. For 95% of the people who have ever played the game, the idea of learning "through caddying" would be a complete head-scratcher.

[BCowan]

It's all a matter of perspective. For 95% of the people who have ever played the game, the idea of learning "through caddying" would be a complete head-scratcher.

Why?  I had close friends that learned that way and my father did too.  Now many cart boys learn that way through having access from working at upscale pubic.  They first are attracted to the job for the tips, then they try it, they like it or they don't

[Jim_Kennedy]

Don't forget to buy a new hole cutter for your 15" cups.   

[Ryan Coles]

This as with power play etc is just not golf.

Twenty20 gave cricket a boost and other sports seem intent on finding their own watered down version, but you either want to play golf or you don't.

[Carl Rogers]

sounds like a sure way to speed up play.  can concede 8 foot putts??

[Jim_Kennedy]

I played in a charity outing that had a fun twist. Each of the four par 3s had three standard size holes cut into them and a player could putt to the cup of his/her choice, usually the closest. It was fun for all handicap ranges and it had the nice side effect of speeding up the putting as every cup was used, at least by my group.  

Wouldn't be hard to adapt the idea for occasional use, maybe on the threes plus a few of the harder fours. Better than a 15" hole in the ground.  

[Brent Hutto]

It's all a matter of perspective. For 95% of the people who have ever played the game, the idea of learning "through caddying" would be a complete head-scratcher.

Why?  I had close friends that learned that way and my father did too.  Now many cart boys learn that way through having access from working at upscale pubic.  They first are attracted to the job for the tips, then they try it, they like it or they don't

Right. That's the 5%. Lot of people on this forum live in that world. Most golfers (the 95%) do not so they think it's all just something they saw on Caddyshack or that maybe happened back in the 60's before most of them were born.

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