In Praise of Slow Green Speeds

[Patrick_Mucci]

If your playing a Dr Mack or Willie Park Jr course 9 will give you plenty of challenge.  Plus to make greens faster greens are typically made softer.  I don't want to see greens have their slope removed.  Firmer is better.  The 20 handi wants his shot out of the rough to hold on the green and for them to run 11 on the stemp.  He has it all backwards IMHO. 

How is it that fast greens are softer? By my perception, the opposite is true. I can't remember having seen a soft, fast green.

Steve,

The ONLY time I've seen that is with German Bent or Velvet greens.

But, I would agree with you in general.

In addition, if the greens are soft, they're going to show footprints, and that ain't happening in Augusta in April.

[BCowan]

If your playing a Dr Mack or Willie Park Jr course 9 will give you plenty of challenge.  Plus to make greens faster greens are typically made softer.  I don't want to see greens have their slope removed.  Firmer is better.  The 20 handi wants his shot out of the rough to hold on the green and for them to run 11 on the stemp.  He has it all backwards IMHO.  

How is it that fast greens are softer? By my perception, the opposite is true. I can't remember having seen a soft, fast green.

Steve,

The ONLY time I've seen that is with German Bent or Velvet greens.

But, I would agree with you in general.

In addition, if the greens are soft, they're going to show footprints, and that ain't happening in Augusta in April.

Steve/Pat,

    I am not talking about bermuda greens, but bent greens (which there is much poa in many of them) unless you gas or redo your greens every 10 years like some places.  (Foot prints) lets not go GCA extreme Senior Mucci.  Steve when you watch the US Open and they get the greens rock hard and 12 on the stemp many times they come close to losing the greens.  When you water the greens, you soften them and lower the soil temp which enables you to cut them very low, on top with rolling them.  Now Cali style built greens (sand base) maybe firmer then typical push up greens (golden age).  Most greens that are push up greens are hard to make firm and maintain a 11+ on the stemp (yes there are exceptions) day in and day out in the summer time.  Temp. has a major factor too hence late sept/early oct can yield both firm and fast greens.

[jeffwarne]

I think greens Stimping 7 suck to putt on.

Can't imagine they'd be any more interesting to see someone else putt on than they are to play myself.

so golf was boring or worse for its first 400+ years of existence?
amazing so many of us fell for the games charms with greens that speed or slower.
and the greens could be amped to 8.5-9 for an event and blow people's minds.


Tilt and slope cause interest at the greens that affect one's tee shot and second shot placement.
speed merely confounds putting, and greens designed to run at speeds 11 and above have less and less of the above elements.

but don't worry, in 25 years those bemoaning 450 yard drives, driveable par 5's, and flat greens that stimp at 18 will continue to be labeled luddites

signed,
another lone anybody

[Brent Hutto]

You can't keep 'em down on the farm once they've seen the big city.

I like putting on smooth, fast (or at least not slow) greens. What can I say. If I'd never seen a decent putting green then maybe I'd like the old slow ones just fine. Or maybe I'd have never bothered to take up the game. Impossible to say at this point.

My first few years playing golf (in the 90's, not the 60's) I played mostly on a public course with grainy Common Bermuda greens that probably Stimped around 6 or 7 for much of the year and would "amp up" to 8+ when the weather cooperated. Or in winter when they were dormant. Even then, the winter when they sped up was more fun. What can I say.

As soon as I had a chance to putt a few times on faster greens (nothing extreme, I'm talking 9 or so maybe) I started finding ways to play more on the fast, smooth greens and less on the slow, grainy ones. It's just more fun.

Not saying other people's experience isn't the exact opposite. If there's a course whose putting green contours absolutely forbid anything higher than 7 on the Stimpmeter I might enjoy trying it once but then I'd be back to putting on faster greens.

As Peter alluded to earlier, I have never seen true-rolling, really smooth greens that putt at 7 or slower on the Stimpmeter. Or if I have it's been 6,000 miles from home playing on grasses that don't grow around here. Even then I'm pretty sure they've been 8, maybe 9 but to me "7" means bumpy and grainy. Don't like it. Not at all.

[jeffwarne]

You can't keep 'em down on the farm once they've seen the big city.

I like putting on smooth, fast (or at least not slow) greens. What can I say. If I'd never seen a decent putting green then maybe I'd like the old slow ones just fine. Or maybe I'd have never bothered to take up the game. Impossible to say at this point.

My first few years playing golf (in the 90's, not the 60's) I played mostly on a public course with grainy Common Bermuda greens that probably Stimped around 6 or 7 for much of the year and would "amp up" to 8+ when the weather cooperated. Or in winter when they were dormant. Even then, the winter when they sped up was more fun. What can I say.

As soon as I had a chance to putt a few times on faster greens (nothing extreme, I'm talking 9 or so maybe) I started finding ways to play more on the fast, smooth greens and less on the slow, grainy ones. It's just more fun.

Not saying other people's experience isn't the exact opposite. If there's a course whose putting green contours absolutely forbid anything higher than 7 on the Stimpmeter I might enjoy trying it once but then I'd be back to putting on faster greens.

As Peter alluded to earlier, I have never seen true-rolling, really smooth greens that putt at 7 or slower on the Stimpmeter. Or if I have it's been 6,000 miles from home playing on grasses that don't grow around here. Even then I'm pretty sure they've been 8, maybe 9 but to me "7" means bumpy and grainy. Don't like it. Not at all.

Brent,
all very true and valid points.
But what if all the current research and effort went into developing smooth turf that ran at 8,was more sustainable, and cheaper to maintain.
It sounds like you hate grainy greens, not slow greens-there is a vast difference.

and understand that I want greens that roll incredibly fast(in one direction)-due to gravity, and correspondingly slow the other direction.
That Pat, is the ultimate test of touch, not a steady diet of one inch backswings

[BCowan]

''but don't worry, in 25 years those bemoaning 450 yard drives, driveable par 5's, and flat greens that stimp at 18 will continue to be labeled luddites''

  Jeff,

    You have Mr Bogey and myself with you .  Better hope greens in Russia don't run 14, or you are really going to see 18 on the stemp soon ''Greens speed arms race''

''But what if all the current research and effort went into developing smooth turf that ran at 8,was more sustainable, and cheaper to maintain''

   I have witnessed a keeper with his own 1000 lb cement roller that he towed to roll the greens, he had great greens and contours.  Academia would frown upon that as excessive compaction. 

[jeffwarne]

If your playing a Dr Mack or Willie Park Jr course 9 will give you plenty of challenge.  Plus to make greens faster greens are typically made softer.  I don't want to see greens have their slope removed.  Firmer is better.  The 20 handi wants his shot out of the rough to hold on the green and for them to run 11 on the stemp.  He has it all backwards IMHO. 

+1

[jeffwarne]

If your playing a Dr Mack or Willie Park Jr course 9 will give you plenty of challenge.  Plus to make greens faster greens are typically made softer.  I don't want to see greens have their slope removed.  Firmer is better.  The 20 handi wants his shot out of the rough to hold on the green and for them to run 11 on the stemp.  He has it all backwards IMHO.  

How is it that fast greens are softer? By my perception, the opposite is true. I can't remember having seen a soft, fast green.

seriously?
lower height of cut typically demands more water
fast, soft greens are common, especially at clubs pushing the limits of turf health to get absolute speed

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think greens Stimping 7 suck to putt on.

Can't imagine they'd be any more interesting to see someone else putt on than they are to play myself.

so golf was boring or worse for its first 400+ years of existence?
amazing so many of us fell for the games charms with greens that speed or slower.
and the greens could be amped to 8.5-9 for an event and blow people's minds.

So Jeff, how would you like to drive a 1934 Ford on the Interstates today ?

New York to Florida in the winter, back in the Spring ?

I think many of the contoured/sloped greens on the Golden Age courses can handle 9-11 on the Stimp

Tilt and slope cause interest at the greens that affect one's tee shot and second shot placement.
speed merely confounds putting, and greens designed to run at speeds 11 and above have less and less of the above elements.

but don't worry, in 25 years those bemoaning 450 yard drives, driveable par 5's, and flat greens that stimp at 18 will continue to be labeled luddites

signed,
another lone anybody

[BCowan]

''So Jeff, how would you like to drive a 1934 Ford on the Interstates today ?

New York to Florida in the winter, back in the Spring ?

I think many of the contoured/sloped greens on the Golden Age courses can handle 9-11 on the Stimp''

  Your analogy is off, it would be like driving a 1934 Ford with a 2014 Porsche engine in it.  Disagree with you.  Many have reduced slopes in their greens.

[SL_Solow]

While I have said I think the trend is irreversible, I can assure you that there were very smooth greens that ran between 7. and 8.5 during the 70's and 80's.  Several clubs in Chicago's south suburbs were renowned for their greens in those days and the putting was just fine.  I now play on a classic from 1921 with new grass and they can be made as fast and as smooth as we like.  Generally 10-10.5 and a lot of fun.  But the old way was great when done right.

[BCowan]

I agree with you Shell, the cat is out of the bag.

[BHoover]

Greens or good looking women, can't argue with a 10.  

Yep!

Do me a favor, if you like slow greens, please remind me never to join a club where you have influence (kidding!).

[Greg Chambers]

If your playing a Dr Mack or Willie Park Jr course 9 will give you plenty of challenge.  Plus to make greens faster greens are typically made softer.  I don't want to see greens have their slope removed.  Firmer is better.  The 20 handi wants his shot out of the rough to hold on the green and for them to run 11 on the stemp.  He has it all backwards IMHO.  

How is it that fast greens are softer? By my perception, the opposite is true. I can't remember having seen a soft, fast green.

seriously?
lower height of cut typically demands more water
fast, soft greens are common, especially at clubs pushing the limits of turf health to get absolute speed

I disagree.  Fast POA greens may need to be watered more, but not fast bent nor Bermuda greens.

[BCowan]

If your playing a Dr Mack or Willie Park Jr course 9 will give you plenty of challenge.  Plus to make greens faster greens are typically made softer.  I don't want to see greens have their slope removed.  Firmer is better.  The 20 handi wants his shot out of the rough to hold on the green and for them to run 11 on the stemp.  He has it all backwards IMHO.  

How is it that fast greens are softer? By my perception, the opposite is true. I can't remember having seen a soft, fast green.

seriously?
lower height of cut typically demands more water
fast, soft greens are common, especially at clubs pushing the limits of turf health to get absolute speed

I disagree.  Fast POA greens may need to be watered more, but not fast bent nor Bermuda greens.

Greg,

 90%- 100% bent grass greens need to be watered if you are going to run them at 11+!  Especially in 85 deg avg summer heat, your not talking international falls, Minnesota?

[SL_Solow]

It all depends on the weather (heat and humidity) the type of bent (A1, A4, 007 root deeper so can be watered deeper) and the subsurface.  Anthony and Don, correct me if I am wrong.

[Tom_Doak]

If it ever stops snowing in Michigan, I will try to go out and play Crystal Downs this month, before the club opens for real on May 1st.  Before opening day, they don't use a Stimpmeter and don't cut the greens low because the grass is barely growing ... I'd guess the green speed is between 7 and 8.

In short, the course looks and plays exactly like it did IN SEASON 25 years ago.  And it's more fun to play than when the greens get fast.

[Patrick_Mucci]

If it ever stops snowing in Michigan, I will try to go out and play Crystal Downs this month, before the club opens for real on May 1st.  Before opening day, they don't use a Stimpmeter and don't cut the greens low because the grass is barely growing ... I'd guess the green speed is between 7 and 8.

Tom,

Take heart, it's 29 and snowing hard in New Jersey as I type this.

I'm looking at between May 15 and June 1st before conditions return to "normal"

In short, the course looks and plays exactly like it did IN SEASON 25 years ago.  And it's more fun to play than when the greens get fast.

At 29 degrees and 25 years older, I won't be playing golf anytime soon.
This is why people stay in Florida and Arizona until June 

[Greg Chambers]

If your playing a Dr Mack or Willie Park Jr course 9 will give you plenty of challenge.  Plus to make greens faster greens are typically made softer.  I don't want to see greens have their slope removed.  Firmer is better.  The 20 handi wants his shot out of the rough to hold on the green and for them to run 11 on the stemp.  He has it all backwards IMHO.  

How is it that fast greens are softer? By my perception, the opposite is true. I can't remember having seen a soft, fast green.

seriously?
lower height of cut typically demands more water
fast, soft greens are common, especially at clubs pushing the limits of turf health to get absolute speed

I disagree.  Fast POA greens may need to be watered more, but not fast bent nor Bermuda greens.

Greg,

 90%- 100% bent grass greens need to be watered if you are going to run them at 11+!  Especially in 85 deg avg summer heat, your not talking international falls, Minnesota?

Sorry Ben, my 20 years of experience growing grass tells me otherwise.  I was able to keep poa out of new bent greens for ten years BECAUSE I didn't keep them wet.  And I kept my greens right at 10.5, increasing them only when requested.

[BCowan]

Greg,

   ''Keeping wet'', is that the same thing as syringing greens when the temps are 90+ degrees.  I never said to keep them wet or foot print soft.  Yes, poa doesn't do well when it is dry.  defining soft is hard to do and some keepers baby the poa, others try and keep it out like yourself.  Greg, do you roll your greens once a week or more?  Receptiveness would be a better word and people could disagree on that degree. 

[John Kirk]

Greens or good looking women, can't argue with a 10. 

My dial goes to 11, for that little extra something:



I'd much rather watch the ball roll at high Stimpmeter speeds, and in general, I prefer green speeds in the 11-12 range, on those rare occasions I'm treated to those conditions.  But I prefer hitting short putts, say under 10 feet long, on slower greens.  It's more fun to take the break out of the short ones and try to rap them in.

[Greg Chambers]

Greg,

   ''Keeping wet'', is that the same thing as syringing greens when the temps are 90+ degrees.  I never said to keep them wet or foot print soft.  Yes, poa doesn't do well when it is dry.  defining soft is hard to do and some keepers baby the poa, others try and keep it out like yourself.  Greg, do you roll your greens once a week or more?  Receptiveness would be a better word and people could disagree on that degree. 

Syringing is about keeping the canopy cool.  When you say soft, I take that to mean that the soil profile is wet.  Those are two different things.  I alternated days mowing and rolling.  My point is, bent doesn't need additional moisture to be kept at faster speeds.  People that think they do won't have bent greens for very long.

[BCowan]

Greg,

   ''Keeping wet'', is that the same thing as syringing greens when the temps are 90+ degrees.  I never said to keep them wet or foot print soft.  Yes, poa doesn't do well when it is dry.  defining soft is hard to do and some keepers baby the poa, others try and keep it out like yourself.  Greg, do you roll your greens once a week or more?  Receptiveness would be a better word and people could disagree on that degree. 

Syringing is about keeping the canopy cool.  When you say soft, I take that to mean that the soil profile is wet.  Those are two different things.  I alternated days mowing and rolling.  My point is, bent doesn't need additional moisture to be kept at faster speeds.  People that think they do won't have bent greens for very long.

    So you mow your greens 4 times a week and roll 3 times?  I like that.  How many times a week do you water in the mornings?  I understand not watering in the evening.  One still has to syringe bent when temp is 90+ degs?  What some may consider avg firmness i might consider soft, but not a wet soil profile. 

[Sean_A]

When we played the 2013 Midwest Mashie at Kingsley, the greens were both moderately fast and firm.  It was ideal.

There was nothing moderate about being above the hole on 17 on Sunday.

Still, I'm with you. I don't think I've ever thought "These greens would be more fun if they were slower." Not at Kingsley, not at Crystal Downs, not at Idle Hour, not at Erin Hills. I like slope, speed, and firmness.

There are other considerations besides personal enjoyment.  For instance, cost and turf health.  Who knows, private club membership may be just that more affordable if greens were kept under 10 and maybe some clubs wouldn't fold.  Its one more piece of the golf economic puzzle which adds up to trouble for some clubs. 

Ciao

[Lou_Duran]

I have survived long enough to remember playing when fast greens were in the 8 range and everybody thought they were lightening quick.  People actually putted off greens.  But I have worked with enough greens' committees to know that we won't be able to turn the clock back, even if we want to because players have seen how fast and smooth modern grasses and techniques allow supers to get their greens and the members demand it.  The tougher issue is keeping that demand from compelling clubs to increase speeds to ridiculous extremes.  At some point, turf health is jeopardized.  Additionally, for non-professional play putting becomes uncontrolable and the pace of play is harmed.  Of course, this also eliminates some interesting hole locations.  The pros putt on greens in excess of 12 or 13 some weeks.  Truly absurd for the regular game.  10.5 really pushes it in my experience.  Incidentally, posting stimp readings only feeds the frenzy.

As an advocate of transparency and decision-making based on data compiled properly over time, I am all for accurately measuring and reporting Stimp readings.  I suspect that most folks overestimate actual green speeds, and if the greens are the differentiating feature of the course, it is probably important to have a good understanding of the Stimp figure they refer to.

My recollections of green speeds from the '70s are a bit different, probably 8'+ on average, though the consistency and variance, even within a green, was much greater than today.  I remember playing in the 1978 CDGA Open at Muirfield Village where  Nicklaus berated his superintendent for getting green speeds in the 14' range.  I have only experienced greens approaching those once, at Beverly CC in the early 2000s, which, given their considerable slope, I thought they were nearly unplayable and obscured the architecture.  On courses with relatively subdued contouring, I prefer 10' greens.  Those with considerable slope and difficult to read, say Pasatiempo, maybe 9'.  In the DFW area, Colonial at 11'-12' is fun;  Dallas National over 10' and with some wind is too hard.