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Jason Topp

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ANGC 12 Green
« on: April 11, 2014, 01:17:44 PM »
It seems pretty clear they had some trouble getting 12 green in good condition for this year's event.  They appear to have aerated and I think I even see some Poa Annua or other splotches on the green.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 03:52:38 PM by Jason Topp »

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: ANGC 12 Green
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2014, 01:24:36 PM »
Synchronicity, Mr Topp. Synch-ro-nic-it-ee. For at the moment you were having these thoughts, I was too. Perhaps the electricity from your firing synapses powered this screen grab taken 1:13:25PM US EDT:

Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Chris_Hufnagel

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Re: ANGC 12 Green
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2014, 01:41:58 PM »
I am sure someone knows better than me, but I would guess of all the greens at AGNC, #12 gives them the most issues given its location, lack of sunlight, and the heavy concentration of trees which I suspect impacts airflow.  It is interesting to note that much of the vegetation on the hill behind the green has been recently removed - not sure what the intent was, but perhaps it was to help with air circulation to help promote healthier grass...

BHoover

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Re: ANGC 12 Green
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2014, 01:51:00 PM »
Since joining GCA and learning more about architecture and turfgrass, I've always been curious about how the location of the 12th green affects the health of the turf.  As Chris pointed out, the green seems to have issues with airflow and sunlight.  I'm sure that airflow could be addressed by the legions of workers who could sit there with handheld fans all day, but sunlight seems to be the bigger issue on that green.

So it's not really surprising that the green might not be as pristine as most would imagine. 

Thomas Dai

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Re: ANGC 12 Green
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2014, 03:46:34 PM »
Note the amount of light on the 12th green in this photo from the 1935 Masters programme - the photo is taken from Joshua Pettits interesting thread entitled In Reverence of Eight Decades at Augusta - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58239.msg1365787.html#new



BTW, which version of the hole would posters rather play - 1935 or 2014?

atb

Jason Topp

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Re: ANGC 12 Green
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2014, 03:53:14 PM »
Synchronicity, Mr Topp. Synch-ro-nic-it-ee. For at the moment you were having these thoughts, I was too. Perhaps the electricity from your firing synapses powered this screen grab taken 1:13:25PM US EDT:


It was probably exactly that screen shot.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: ANGC 12 Green
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2014, 08:52:37 PM »
Thomas:

Another old photo of the 12th:

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Brett Hochstein

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Re: ANGC 12 Green
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2014, 11:39:42 PM »
Let's not also forget the size of the green and that it's a shortish par 3--a double whammy when it comes to traffic/wear and tear.  If it were more the size of the original in those '34 images, the effects might be lessened.  I have a feeling this winter and late coming spring (more lingering moisture in the soil) probably have more to do with it though.  Pointing out flaws though will probably only make Augusta increase their efforts for perfection.  HD isn't helping them, and super HD won't either.
"From now on, ask yourself, after every round, if you have more energy than before you began.  'Tis much more important than the score, Michael, much more important than the score."     --John Stark - 'To the Linksland'

http://www.hochsteindesign.com

David Ober

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Re: ANGC 12 Green
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2014, 11:44:52 PM »
Note the amount of light on the 12th green in this photo from the 1935 Masters programme - the photo is taken from Joshua Pettits interesting thread entitled In Reverence of Eight Decades at Augusta -
BTW, which version of the hole would posters rather play - 1935 or 2014?

atb

1935, but I much prefer that aesthetic. No right or wrong here.

Joe Sponcia

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Re: ANGC 12 Green
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2014, 08:22:15 AM »
Note the amount of light on the 12th green in this photo from the 1935 Masters programme - the photo is taken from Joshua Pettits interesting thread entitled In Reverence of Eight Decades at Augusta - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58239.msg1365787.html#new



BTW, which version of the hole would posters rather play - 1935 or 2014?

atb

Just wow!  Thanks for posting that.
Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo

Patrick_Mucci

Re: ANGC 12 Green
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2014, 08:26:03 AM »

Sven,

Great photo.

Do you know when that elevated back bunker was built ?


Another old photo of the 12th:



Colin Macqueen

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Re: ANGC 12 Green
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2014, 08:35:20 AM »
Gentlemen,
When Brett says,
"Pointing out flaws though will probably only make Augusta increase their efforts for perfection." he is clearly thinking along the same lines as Clifford Roberts.
According to David Owens in "The Making of The Masters", when Roberts was told once what a marvellous tournament it was he replied "Thank you, but we never really get it right.".

Perfection is the goal!

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Niall C

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Re: ANGC 12 Green
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2014, 08:53:18 AM »
Very interesting photo from early days. What strikes me is how abrupt the change from green to bank both in terms of contour and vegetation. Also hard to tell from the photo whether there was always a bit of a moat at the bottom of the bank for drainage purposes and to stop players hitting into the bank to allow for the ball to run back onto the green.

If there was a moat then whats the purpose of the back bunker exactly ?

Thinking of the 2014 version, if you removed the front bunker and left it with similar banking as elsewhere along the front of the green, how much more difficult would you make the hole and would it be less strategic ? (I'd suggest yes)

Niall

Sven Nilsen

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Re: ANGC 12 Green
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2014, 09:06:25 AM »
Pat:

That back elevated bunker was part of the original design.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Patrick_Mucci

Re: ANGC 12 Green
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2014, 05:26:37 PM »
Pat:

That back elevated bunker was part of the original design.

Sven,

It's certainly evident in the 1935 photo, but, it seems so far removed from the target green, so high up on that bank, that it had to be primarily for visual and not practical purposes.

And, in the Olmsted schematic, it doesn't appear to be in the location reflected in the 1935 photo.


So, was this part of the original design, or a modification during construction or prior to 1935 ?


Sven Nilsen

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Re: ANGC 12 Green
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2014, 05:48:39 PM »
Pat:

No idea.  That photo is from very early on, so my best guess is that the bunker was original to the course.  Whether it was part of the original design or if it was a design modification during construction, I don't know.  And it is possible that it was an addition made after the course opened and prior to the taking of the photo. 

Here's a summary of the early changes to the hole:

1934 - 150 yards - The tee was positioned beneath a frame of three pines, which soon died.  The wide, flat green was built by cutting earth from the far bank of Rae's Creek and depositing it on a ledge.  The original bunkering consisted of a long, skinny one in front and a tiny one atop a hill behind.

1939 - 155 yards - Roberts directed Maxwell to enlarge the green on the right by digging out dirt from the bank behind the green with the possibility of exposing rock.  Roberts wrote "I think it will add to the thrill of the hole, as a very strong shot will strike the rock and bounce most anywhere."  A month later he wrote Maxwell to say "We do not wish to expose any rocks on the bank."  Maxwell turned the pits into bunkers.

1951 - 155 yards - For years the area between the tee and the creek as an oft flooded bog (in 1936 rowboats were considered to get players to the green).  When Rae's Creek was dammed for flood control in 1950, a tiny stream off the tee was buried in pipe, and the entire area was raised a bit.  A swale was created behind the green to remove water, and the bunkers were relocated.

As for the Olmsted plan, I'm going to quote some moron on its reliability as a source:  "While the Olmsted schematic is a nice rendering, it should not be regarded as definitive."

I would note that since the bunker was at the top of an incline, in actual distance as viewed from overhead it was probably closer to the green than it appears in the photo.

By the way, any thoughts on Bubba's shot into 15 on Sunday (which was from left of the three trees the designers located in the 15th fairway as they appear in the Olmsted plan)?

Sven

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Patrick_Mucci

Re: ANGC 12 Green
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2014, 06:01:09 PM »
Pat:

No idea.  That photo is from very early on, so my best guess is that the bunker was original to the course. 

It's a 1935 photo.
It can also be seen in a 1935 photo of the 11th green


Whether it was part of the original design or if it was a design modification during construction, I don't know. 
And it is possible that it was an addition made after the course opened and prior to the taking of the photo. 

Here's a summary of the early changes to the hole:

1934 - 150 yards - The tee was positioned beneath a frame of three pines, which soon died.  The wide, flat green was built by cutting earth from the far bank of Rae's Creek and depositing it on a ledge.  The original bunkering consisted of a long, skinny one in front and a tiny one atop a hill behind.

1939 - 155 yards - Roberts directed Maxwell to enlarge the green on the right by digging out dirt from the bank behind the green with the possibility of exposing rock.  Roberts wrote "I think it will add to the thrill of the hole, as a very strong shot will strike the rock and bounce most anywhere."  A month later he wrote Maxwell to say "We do not wish to expose any rocks on the bank."  Maxwell turned the pits into bunkers.

1951 - 155 yards - For years the area between the tee and the creek as an oft flooded bog (in 1936 rowboats were considered to get players to the green).  When Rae's Creek was dammed for flood control in 1950, a tiny stream off the tee was buried in pipe, and the entire area was raised a bit.  A swale was created behind the green to remove water, and the bunkers were relocated.

As for the Olmsted plan, I'm going to quote some moron on its reliability as a source: 

"While the Olmsted schematic is a nice rendering, it should not be regarded as definitive."

When it comes to identifying individual trees, I think the above statement is true.
When it comes to locating greenside bunkers, I think the schematic becomes more reliable
When


I would note that since the bunker was at the top of an incline, in actual distance as viewed from overhead it was probably closer to the green than it appears in the photo.

I would disagree.
A bunker positioned at the top of the incline is a significant distance from the green
Viewing that bunker from the left side of the 11th green, in the 1935 photo would seem to confirm that it's a good distance from # 12 green


By the way, any thoughts on Bubba's shot into 15 on Sunday (which was from left of the three trees the designers located in the 15th fairway as they appear in the Olmsted plan)?

There are many who thought that Bubba, with the lead he had, was insane to try that shot.
But, evidently, Bubba thought otherwise and hit a spectacular shot.

They say that you have to have a little luck to win a tournament and I think Bubba got very lucky on 13 with his tee shot.
I'd have to stand on the fairway from where he hit the shot on # 15 before commenting, since TV often distorts position based upon cameral angles.


Brett Morris

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Re: ANGC 12 Green
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2014, 06:20:07 PM »
This is another old image of 12 I had on file.  Not too sure of year, but looks like Mr Hogan and the second back bunker added in near the 13th tee. 

A good indication of the old contours.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: ANGC 12 Green
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2014, 09:51:32 PM »
Brett,

I think your photo was taken after the bunker had been repositioned and a second bunker added.

You can see the change in the 1948/9 photo

BCowan

Re: ANGC 12 Green
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2014, 10:05:04 PM »
Pat,

   Looking at the photo, did they raise the modern green up?  It looks like a flooding issue in that photo

Ronald Montesano

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Re: ANGC 12 Green
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2014, 10:13:19 PM »
Who has one foot in the water? Don't have that option today.
Coming in 2024
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Sven Nilsen

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Re: ANGC 12 Green
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2014, 10:30:26 PM »
Pat,

   Looking at the photo, did they raise the modern green up?  It looks like a flooding issue in that photo

Ben:

Here's the description of the changes which raised the green:

1966 - 155 yards - The arched Ben Hogan Bridge was added in 1958, its grass surface soon replaced by artificial turf.  Further changes were made in 1965 to address flood control, including bringing in dirt with wheelbarrows to raise the entire putting surface 18 inches.  Land between the tee and creek was raised another two feet, and side-by-side-split-level tees were built, the Masters tee being lower than the tee used by the members.

Sven

Edit:  Note that the bunkers have been in the same positions since 1951.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 10:42:49 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

BCowan

Re: ANGC 12 Green
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2014, 12:02:02 AM »
Sven,

    thanks for re-posting that paragraph, I apologize for not scrolling up the page. 

Carson Pilcher

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Re: ANGC 12 Green
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2014, 08:51:19 AM »
I do believe the 12th green was the first to receive the Sub-Air system due to the reduced air circulation a number of years ago.  After it's success, it prompted the club to place it under a majority of the greens.

Carson Pilcher

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Re: ANGC 12 Green
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2014, 08:53:22 AM »
After a quick search, I found this:

"The micro-management of Augusta National’s greens is nowhere more impressive than in the notoriously low-lying area of Amen Corner, where holes 11, 12 and 13 are located along Rae’s Creek and a smaller, unnamed tributary. There, 170 feet below the elevation of the clubhouse, air circulation is more limited than anywhere on the course and the area remains marginally cooler and with less sunlight than other sections of the course. A system of pipes allows for warming and/or cooling of these putting surfaces. Grow lights at the 12th green afford a means of counteracting shade. And gradual progress has been made in opening up some corridors in the trees for sun."

http://golfweek.com/news/2012/apr/05/augustas-greens-secrets-magic-carpet-ride/