Arizona Grand Hotel golf course

[Martin Toal]

Guys, going to a meeting at this place in early May. Hope it has warmed up by then (kidding).

Anyway, will have a slot for a game of golf, and there is a course on site.

Any good (I think I have an idea what the answer will be) or any suitable alternatives nearby. Probably won't have a rental car so it would be taxi.

Note: not angling for any access, a tourist public course is just fine.

[Gary_K]

If the ASU Karsten Course is a 0, the course at the Arizona Grand Hotel (Shadow Horse?) is a -10.  The course is very awkward with bad blind shots, quirky desert/mountain holes and some ghetto golf (houses packed along both sides of the fairway).  A dog getting hit by a car on the road adjacent to the #6 hole didn't add to the experience.  I would not recommend this course even if you are staying at the hotel.  If you play it, please provide a trip report. 

Maybe consider the Raven Club 2 miles west on baseline, Papago ~6 miles north or one of the courses at Wildhorse Pass casino ~6 south.

[Matthew Petersen]

I would agree that the course at Arizona Grand is not worth it. Might have been a fun quirky course at one time but the homes are so packed around it now that's it's an absolute disaster.

There are some decent options just west down Baseline, which would be easily accessible by cab--including Raven, the Legacy, and Vistal. Raven is an odd sort of course with a bunch of imported pine trees lining the fairways. Legacy was never a favorite of mine and based on aerials has had significant housing added, which sure isn't going to help.

Vistal is a pretty decent track, and good bang for your buck. It's built more on the hillside than the other two and has no housing around. Some fun holes and good views.

There's also a Phoenix muni even further down the road to the west--Aguila. That's a Gary Panks course and is pretty good as well. Both Vistal and Aguila are walkable, depending on how, um, warm it is.

[Martin Toal]

Wow, a Doak -10, sounds like an experience.

I will look at Vistal and Raven on the net, but looks like Arizona Grand is off the agenda!

Thanks for the advice, guys.

[Jason Topp]

Is that the old Point at South Mountain course? 

Vistal is a very fun course. It might  be worth it to rent a car for a day and go to we ko pa or southern dunes.

[Jason Topp]

The whirlwind courses are close as well.  I played the Devil's Claw course and really liked it. 
Unless there is a big cost difference that would be my recommendation.

[Forrest Richardson]

Gee, a guy creates a golf course 30 years ago and it goes all the way the Arizona Supreme Court, gets held up for 3 years, and is finished less 13 acres of land that was in the original design….and you hate it to the point of a -10 Doak ??  Wow. I am not sure whether to be dissed or honored. Or both.

There are some very nice holes, you just have to love golf to appreciate them.

Maybe you just did not adapt to the blind shots, or the "awkward" holes. Better never venture to Cruden Bay or North Berwick. I hear they have some awkward holes, too.  

[Matthew Petersen]

Gee, a guy creates a golf course 30 years ago and it goes all the way the Arizona Supreme Court, gets held up for 3 years, and is finished less 13 acres of land that was in the original design….and you hate it to the point of a -10 Doak ??  Wow. I am not sure whether to be dissed or honored. Or both.

There are some very nice holes, you just have to love golf to appreciate them.

Maybe you just did not adapt to the blind shots, or the "awkward" holes. Better never venture to Cruden Bay or North Berwick. I hear they have some awkward holes, too.  

The problem with the awkward and/or blind holes at AZ Grand is that there are homes immediately off the fairways here. That's not really your fault, or the fault of anyone else who built the course, because I know they weren't there then. But it's a pretty miserable place to try to play today.

There are a few nice holes. One par 3 on the back (11 maybe?) in particular stands out.

[Forrest Richardson]

Well, it always hurts to hear golfers are not happy with a course of your creation. The good news, it makes money and fills rooms. The close-in home lots were a bad idea. We worked very diligently to keep them back, but the developer saw other needs. We lost and our original plan suffers at Holes 7, 9, 11, 16, and 17. Those 5 are not ideal. Unfortunately, they are not treated as the Sheds at TOC #17  

Holes I have always enjoyed: 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12 (the par-3 you cite), 13, 14 and 18.

Here is 13:

[Pete_Pittock]

Gee, a guy creates a golf course 30 years ago and it goes all the way the Arizona Supreme Court, gets held up for 3 years, and is finished less 13 acres of land that was in the original design….and you hate it to the point of a -10 Doak ??  Wow. I am not sure whether to be dissed or honored. Or both.

There are some very nice holes, you just have to love golf to appreciate them.

Maybe you just did not adapt to the blind shots, or the "awkward" holes. Better never venture to Cruden Bay or North Berwick. I hear they have some awkward holes, too.  

Forrest,
If it is any consolation the person who thought it was a Doak -10 didn't even know the name of the course, so his rating may be suspect, too

[Alex Miller]

What a coincidence! The only course I've played in Phoenix on a family vacation years ago! At the time the 18th was an island green and that suited my tastes...  That's all I can remember well-enough to comment on. 

[DMoriarty]

Gee, a guy creates a golf course 30 years ago and it goes all the way the Arizona Supreme Court, gets held up for 3 years, and is finished less 13 acres of land that was in the original design….

What does any of this have to do with whether or not it is worth a play?

[Ken Moum]

Gee, a guy creates a golf course 30 years ago and it goes all the way the Arizona Supreme Court, gets held up for 3 years, and is finished less 13 acres of land that was in the original design….and you hate it to the point of a -10 Doak ??  Wow. I am not sure whether to be dissed or honored. Or both.

There are some very nice holes, you just have to love golf to appreciate them.

Maybe you just did not adapt to the blind shots, or the "awkward" holes. Better never venture to Cruden Bay or North Berwick. I hear they have some awkward holes, too.  

You know Forrest, I played it as Phantom Horse several years ago and could only remember that I thought was too hard to figure out for a "resort" course. But then I think that a lot as my theory is that resort courses shouldn't baffle everyone on first playing.

But a couple of weeks ago my wife and I were wrapping up a winter trip to AZ and I was trying to find one more place to play at a decent price. Arizona Grand came up on Golf now and when I realized that it was Phantom Horse I booked and warned my wife that she might think it too quirky.

But you know what? We played it, and I fairly enjoyed the day.  Methinks my earlier problems were due to an errant driver, because the two ladies we were paired with suffered mightily by not being able to keep it in play for most of the second nine.

K

[Forrest Richardson]

D Moriarty:  It was a very tough assignment that involved a land exchange. Ultimately it resulted in a referendum and the vote of the City of Phoenix was sent it to the Supreme Court to be sorted out. Since it was always going to be a golf course (regardless of delays, reduced land, lawsuits, etc.), the background story is pertinent. Golf courses are like children, not all are perfect or model citizens. The Pointe (later called Phantom Horse, now Arizona Grand) is a good story of how to make the best of things gone bad. Whether that makes it "worth playing" was not my point. I was providing the context to some of the quirkiness that now gets criticizes. I do not ever expect the criticism to vanish.

Alex: The island green was added by the previous owner in the 1990s. Bad idea. Not my work. (Why add quirk to a course that has so much to begin with?) This owner had reversed the opening hole and made it #18. You could not see the island on the par-4 second shot unless you were exactly at the right spot. Some tee balls ended up in the drink if hit too far! I reversed it (back) 7 years ago and we left the island for the tees in order to avoid changing the expensive lake work. The island now has a small practice green and, once again, you play off up the hill and through the pass. The clubhouse now has a pleasant path to the bridge and  island where a restaurant and bar now looks over the action at the 1st tees.

Ken: A to of women love the course, as do short hitters with accurate tee balls. These remains today as the two categories that pay the course the best accolades. Big hitters used to wide open spaces do not typically like it at all. Ron Whitten called it a PRECISION COURSE, which I have always embraced as a very good description.

---

Want you all to know that my comments are not necessarily meant to get you to drop other plans and play Arizona Grand. I am only defending my first-born child… 

[Mark Smolens]

Very definitely a course you can take a senior woman to play (took my Mom there and had a great time). Shot 69 there, with an eagle on a par-4 (short hole, toward the end of the round?). Lowest career score at the time.

I would go to Vistal or down to Whirlwind over PH, but far from a -10 imo...

[William_G]

Well, it always hurts to hear golfers are not happy with a course of your creation. The good news, it makes money and fills rooms. The close-in home lots were a bad idea. We worked very diligently to keep them back, but the developer saw other needs. We lost and our original plan suffers at Holes 7, 9, 11, 16, and 17. Those 5 are not ideal. Unfortunately, they are not treated as the Sheds at TOC #17  

Holes I have always enjoyed: 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12 (the par-3 you cite), 13, 14 and 18.

Here is 13:

I have the book, LOL

[Howard Riefs]

I have the book, LOL

Me, too.  I thought that hole looked familiar. 

I haven't played the course but can highly recommend Forrest's book, Routing the Golf Course.

http://www.amazon.com/Routing-Golf-Course-Science-Journey/dp/0471434809

[Bill_McBride]

I have the book, LOL

Me, too.  I thought that hole looked familiar. 

I haven't played the course but can highly recommend Forrest's book, Routing the Golf Course.

http://www.amazon.com/Routing-Golf-Course-Science-Journey/dp/0471434809

And his other really good one on hazards, bunkers etc.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

http://www.arizonagrandresort.com/arizona-golf-resort-map.php

My wife and I played there about 2 years ago.  13 is certainly a memorable hole. No doubt it is a  "precision course."  I'd like a return visit.

[Matthew Petersen]

Well, it always hurts to hear golfers are not happy with a course of your creation. The good news, it makes money and fills rooms. The close-in home lots were a bad idea. We worked very diligently to keep them back, but the developer saw other needs. We lost and our original plan suffers at Holes 7, 9, 11, 16, and 17. Those 5 are not ideal. Unfortunately, they are not treated as the Sheds at TOC #17  

Holes I have always enjoyed: 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12 (the par-3 you cite), 13, 14 and 18.

Here is 13:

12-14 is a good stretch. I like 15, too, but it's a bit too narrow maybe? I've played there just twice, and many years apart.

Those are the holes that stick out into the nature preserve, so a wayward ball is in the desert, but not someone's back yard.

In theory, I think features of 6,9, 16, and 17 have a lot of potential, but those are holes where homes intrude very directly. In some cases there's vegetation to "protect" the homes that further hurts the hole.

Anyway, I was not the one who called it a -10. I'd play most other courses in the area before going back there, but a large portion of that is because the conditions were very poor the last time I was there. Greens that were comically shaggy, except for the spots that were dead. But maybe I caught them at a bad time.

[Bill_McBride]

http://www.arizonagrandresort.com/arizona-golf-resort-map.php

My wife and I played there about 2 years ago.  13 is certainly a memorable hole. No doubt it is a  "precision course."  I'd like a return visit.

If I recall correctly, you and your missus have never missed a fairway.  Even the narrow ones!

[Ben Baldwin]

If the ASU Karsten Course is a 0, the course at the Arizona Grand Hotel (Shadow Horse?) is a -10.  The course is very awkward with bad blind shots, quirky desert/mountain holes and some ghetto golf (houses packed along both sides of the fairway).  A dog getting hit by a car on the road adjacent to the #6 hole didn't add to the experience.  I would not recommend this course even if you are staying at the hotel.  If you play it, please provide a trip report. 

Maybe consider the Raven Club 2 miles west on baseline, Papago ~6 miles north or one of the courses at Wildhorse Pass casino ~6 south.

Played Raven this morning...in great shape.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Bill,

Mrs S is much more accurate than I am; however, I'm doing ok these days. If I could only putt, I'd be dangerous. I'll let you know when I return to Arizona Grand.