Collusion - Yes, I'm a Broken Record

[George Pazin]

No, because others can still look for it. And you're accepting the penalty as well.

Many years ago,I was playing in a Mid Am qualifier at Southern Hills. On the long 3-par on the back(13?) with OB left,a guy in my group hit his tee shot on a line toward OB but I THOUGHT I saw it come down in bounds and told him. He announced a provisional, re-loaded, and knocked it in the hole. Just so happened a USGA official was standing there.

The guy almost sprints toward the green while only cursorily looking for his original tee shot. I'm walking about 50 yards behind him and just as soon as he reaches in the hole to pull out his ball, I see his first tee shot --right in the middle of an oak tree's roots.

He asks the USGA official if he has to play his original--but I'm pretty sure he already knew the answer.

Long to short,after several really ugly stares at me and an unplayable,the guy makes 6 after he thought he'd made 3 the hard way.

And he missed qualifying by 2 shots.

I never did make his Christmas card list.

Wonderful story. I truly pray that someday I can begin a post with the following:

Many years ago,I was playing in a Mid Am qualifier at Southern Hills.

That's just too cool.

Even so, I wonder where the problem lies. My admittedly woeful understanding of the rules is that, once a ball is holed out, it is over. So, wouldn't a par 3 provisional re-tee then be a par, holed out? One needn't hit the next shot to put the provisional in play, it's already holed out.

I would fight Rules Maven JohnV on this one! Not really, he's a lot bigger than me, but I would argue the point. Strenuously, even.

[George Pazin]

Sorry George, that doesn't make me feel any better about it.  You are assuming the penalty for finding the first ball will match the penalty inherent in playing the provisional.

The whole idea behind a provisional is to get a second ball in play if the first ball cannot be found.  To make the decision that the first is irretrievable without even looking seems highly capricious and ripe for abuse.

It is an attempt to gain an advantage, as the player will only not look for the first ball if they believe they are going to be better off by playing their provisional.

Even worse is the player who tells their caddy or their playing partners they don't want to find the first one, as that removes any doubt of intention.

If you are hoping to always equalize penalties, you too are tilting at windmills. Tufts says you treat like situations alike. It doesn't guarantee an equitable outcome to all.

Nobody does that, not even Barry...

[SL_Solow]

George;  the ball was never in play.  So it couldn't be holed out.

[Wade Whitehead]

No, because others can still look for it. And you're accepting the penalty as well.

Many years ago,I was playing in a Mid Am qualifier at Southern Hills. On the long 3-par on the back(13?) with OB left,a guy in my group hit his tee shot on a line toward OB but I THOUGHT I saw it come down in bounds and told him. He announced a provisional, re-loaded, and knocked it in the hole. Just so happened a USGA official was standing there.

The guy almost sprints toward the green while only cursorily looking for his original tee shot. I'm walking about 50 yards behind him and just as soon as he reaches in the hole to pull out his ball, I see his first tee shot --right in the middle of an oak tree's roots.

He asks the USGA official if he has to play his original--but I'm pretty sure he already knew the answer.

Long to short,after several really ugly stares at me and an unplayable,the guy makes 6 after he thought he'd made 3 the hard way.

And he missed qualifying by 2 shots.

I never did make his Christmas card list.

After you found it, he should have declared the first ball unplayable, returned to the tee, and holed his third shot.

Then he would have qualified.  Simple as that.

WW

[JMEvensky]

Wonderful story. I truly pray that someday I can begin a post with the following:

Many years ago,I was playing in a Mid Am qualifier at Southern Hills.

That's just too cool.

Thanks,but anybody can pay their $100 and try to qualify.

If it matters,I'll never be able to start an anecdote "when I was PLAYING in the Mid Am".

As others stated,his provisional was if his tee shot was OB--it wasn't.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sorry George, that doesn't make me feel any better about it.  You are assuming the penalty for finding the first ball will match the penalty inherent in playing the provisional.

The whole idea behind a provisional is to get a second ball in play if the first ball cannot be found.  To make the decision that the first is irretrievable without even looking seems highly capricious and ripe for abuse.

It is an attempt to gain an advantage, as the player will only not look for the first ball if they believe they are going to be better off by playing their provisional.

Even worse is the player who tells their caddy or their playing partners they don't want to find the first one, as that removes any doubt of intention.

If you are hoping to always equalize penalties, you too are tilting at windmills. Tufts says you treat like situations alike. It doesn't guarantee an equitable outcome to all.

Nobody does that, not even Barry...

George:

You are missing the point.  I'm not hoping to equalize penalties, I'm more concerned about the opportunities for abuse.  Why should a player be able to turn a blind eye to a ball that is in many cases could be found?  This runs completely contrary to the spirit of playing your ball as it lies.  

I guess I just have an issue with the thought that you can declare a ball lost if you don't even make a reasonable effort to look for it, if it suits your purposes.  I guarantee that if that provisional suffered a worse fate than the first, the search would be on for the original shot.

Sven

[Jon Wiggett]

It is an attempt to gain an advantage, as the player will only not look for the first ball if they believe they are going to be better off by playing their provisional.

Sven,

there is nothing wrong in using the rules to the full advantage as long as you do not breech them. I am not sure that not looking for your ball is poor sportsmanship though I do understand why you may not wish not look for your ball.

Jon

[Sven Nilsen]

It is an attempt to gain an advantage, as the player will only not look for the first ball if they believe they are going to be better off by playing their provisional.

Sven,

there is nothing wrong in using the rules to the full advantage as long as you do not breech them. I am not sure that not looking for your ball is poor sportsmanship though I do understand why you may not wish not look for your ball.

Jon

Jon:

I agree.  Its within the rules and all that.

But it sure smells fishy.

Sven

[Sean_A]

No, because others can still look for it. And you're accepting the penalty as well.

Many years ago,I was playing in a Mid Am qualifier at Southern Hills. On the long 3-par on the back(13?) with OB left,a guy in my group hit his tee shot on a line toward OB but I THOUGHT I saw it come down in bounds and told him. He announced a provisional, re-loaded, and knocked it in the hole. Just so happened a USGA official was standing there.

The guy almost sprints toward the green while only cursorily looking for his original tee shot. I'm walking about 50 yards behind him and just as soon as he reaches in the hole to pull out his ball, I see his first tee shot --right in the middle of an oak tree's roots.

He asks the USGA official if he has to play his original--but I'm pretty sure he already knew the answer.

Long to short,after several really ugly stares at me and an unplayable,the guy makes 6 after he thought he'd made 3 the hard way.

And he missed qualifying by 2 shots.

I never did make his Christmas card list.

What if the provisional hadn't gone in the hole and he was still outside his playing partners shots?  Could a guy go putt while others are looking for his ball and then declare his provisional in play?  I think that would be my answer to a guy looking for my ball when its obvious I don't want anything to do with it.  One good tit deserves a tat.

Ciao

[Jim_Coleman]

   I dare anyone to explain the upside of not hitting a provisional?

[V. Kmetz]

I haven't seen all the thrusts in this thread, but this last situation, where the player made 3 on the provisional...

Fuck him; he DOES have the wrong spirit (or whatever you call it) in his heart because he wanted it both ways.  He used the provisional declaration to cover his ass (in agreement with Jim C) --with or without anecdotal reports that it might be "in"-- before he saw the insurance was unnecessary. The fellow competitor (in this case, within a top tournament) was absolutely protecting the field by locating the ball.  Before he knew if he would "lose" another or get plugged in a bunker face he wanted that "find" and willingly took the protection of the rules, for which the cost is precisely the situation he encountered.  If his original ball was in the cup or on the green, he would have sung a different tune.  It's like you taking back insurance on the black jack dealer's ace once you see he has a "4" and you're at 20.

When your ball is, or might be, lost, the rules offer options at a cost - sometimes strokes, sometime distance, sometimes difficulty of next shot, they give you 5 minutes to fully exercise your options.  It is up to the player to exercise those options as judiciously as they are given.

What I would like to know is when does the hole "end" for the player whose provisional has been holed out?  At the moment he holes out (or discovers he has holed out) or when the 5 minutes is officially exhausted? When he removes the ball from the cup, when the other player is done with play?

Yet a fuller possible answer to Jim C is that I can envision an extremely limited and rare scenario where you were playing a match and your opponent had already whacked into the woods and then played his provisional poorly and then YOU get up do the same and judge that a terrible fate has claimed your original ball, perhaps its just worth it to quarantine yourself from any chance that he could use that apple against you and you'll take your chances on the second one.

cheers

vk

[Sean_A]

V

I don't play tourny golf, just club stuff, and I will be damned if I am gonna look for someone's ball after holing out for a 3.  Lets say I do find the ball, no way am I gonna feel good about that sort of thing.  Its a backass way to win and if I need to win that way I would rather not compete. So you have taught me a lesson, if this situation arises, don't walk near where the original ball is, just be happy for a guy making a 3 in this wild manner.  Its only a game.

Ciao

[Brent Hutto]

I'm with Sean here. Let the guy have his stinking hole-in-three or whatever you want to call it.

The bloody-mindedness of this forum lately concerns me. I've played golf with quite a few of you guys over the years and never met one who struck me as having his head up his ass like some of the discussion in this thread. Are you guys just posturing to gin up discussion and wile away an endless winter or has an epidemic of sheer cussedness broken out while I wasn't looking?

[Sven Nilsen]

Brent:

Pretty strong statement there.  I don't think anyone is posturing, just expressing an opinion (and it seemed to me it was pretty clear it was an opinion on golf played under the rules, not what you allow for in your normal game). 

But I guess your statement about "some" of us having our heads up our asses is just an opinion as well.

Sven

[SL_Solow]

Brent;  I think you have it wrong.  The discussion was about the rules of golf.  A player can decide however he wants to play so long as he is not in a tournament or playing for money with someone who wants to play by the rules of golf.  But if someone wants to know what the rules provide, those providing the correct answer should not be accused of being mean spirited because the answer is different than what someone would prefer.  As for me, although I spend a little time officiating, I don't care what my companions do in a casual game so long as they keep up and have a good time.  But I have noticed over the years in club tourneys that when rules infractions occur, they usually come from those who ignore the rules in their usual games.  Either way., its just a habit

[Pete_Pittock]

Victor,
A provisional ball that has been holed out becomes the ball in play when it is pulled from the cup.

A provisional ball that is tapped in becomes the ball in play when it it is struck for the tap in, because the ball is definitely closer to the hole than the original.

Because I know that a player does not have to search for a ball under the Rules of Golf, and he has hit a provisional ball, when I am in the general area of the original ball and its lie is not obvious I will not begin my search if it seems to me that the best unplayable ball option is stroke and distance. I take my cue from the actions of the player.

[V. Kmetz]

A couple of experienced rules authorities whom I respect chimed in privately and I realized I'm really trying to answer:

How much control over his own search does a player retain?

On one hand, it begins five minutes when he (his caddie or his partner) arrive at the "general" area where the ball is thought to be lost...does the same standard apply to his fellow competitor or opponent...to a bystander, spectator, marshal or guy having lunch on the hill.

As to the "its only a game" aspect...I think my "Fuck him" tone was misinterpreted on two counts (my fault).

A. Absolutely, it's a game, I get it...I wouldn't shit on someone else's odd joyful fortune by going out and actively looking for the ball; I'll take my cue from him.  But if it is seen and found in the normal course of events, I'm not going to ignore it and certainly not in a match against that player.
Aa. As a regular tournament caddie and sometimes player, I have never begun a search for a ball without the player's say-so...my bag or someone else's.

B.  Is there no "it's just a game finger-wagging" at the player who runs up to the green as fast as he can to pluck it out of the cup?

Unless you have caddied for B flight ladies in the quarter-finals of __________________________'s ladies' presidents cup and seen two    senior housewives come to blows over the rules, I reserve the right to keep my own counsel as to who is taking who too seriously and carrying out misanthropy via the sport and rules of golf.

All I really want to know is the limits for the player (and anyone else who might wander by) as to the search and whether or not an abandonment clause might not be worthy amendment to the rules.

cheers

vk

[Michael Whitaker]

Some of you guys don't seem to understand the purpose of the provisional... it is to speed up play by avoiding the "walk of shame" back to hit another ball after five minutes of searching. It is NOT to give the player a playing option as you CANNOT have two balls in play at the same time.

Since you can't have two balls in play at the same time the provisional is only in play once it has been decided that original ball is out of play. If it is determined (by ANY means or ANYONE) that the original ball is still in play the provisional, in essence, never happened. It doesn't matter if the provisional is in the hole. The only action by the player that can put the provisional in play (other than the five minute search) is to play a stroke with the provisional from a position beyond the "probable" location of the original ball. Once that happens the original is deemed out of play and the provisional becomes the ball in play.

But, always remember... the provisional option is only provided to speed things along. If you have ever had to wait on someone to walk back to a tee to put a ball in play or walked onto a tee to see a player walking back to replay a shot you can appreciate the concept of the provisional.

[Sven Nilsen]

Michael:

I think we all understand the purpose of the provisional.

What I don't understand is why the player doesn't need to at least look for the first ball if there is any question as to whether or not it may still be in play.  It is a quirk in the rules that runs counter to the general idea of playing the ball as it lies.

Sven

[Michael Whitaker]

Michael:

I think we all understand the purpose of the provisional.

What I don't understand is why the player doesn't need to at least look for the first ball if there is any question as to whether or not it may still be in play.  It is a quirk in the rules that runs counter to the general idea of playing the ball as it lies.

Sven

I guess the rules makers decided that if a player wants to accept a stroke and distance penalty rather than look for a ball, then so be it.

[Sven Nilsen]

Michael:

I think we all understand the purpose of the provisional.

What I don't understand is why the player doesn't need to at least look for the first ball if there is any question as to whether or not it may still be in play.  It is a quirk in the rules that runs counter to the general idea of playing the ball as it lies.

Sven

I guess the rules makers decided that if a player wants to accept a stroke and distance penalty rather than look for a ball, then so be it.

And the only time a player is going to accept that penalty without looking for the first ball is if they think they are gaining an advantage.  Otherwise, the search is on.  

Perhaps its more of a maintenance and marking issue, but the whole idea of willful blindness when a player is potentially faced with being "in jail" strikes me as contrived and unnatural.  

Sven

Edit:  I found this statement on the etiquette of searching for someone else's errant shot:

"In stroke play, it is considered good etiquette for a fellow competitor not to search for a ball that the player wishes to abandon, but in match play an opponent may choose to search for it if they consider that it is to their advantage to find it."

So much for protecting the field.

[Michael Whitaker]

Sven,

You ALWAYS have the option of hitting another shot from the location of your last one under a stroke & distance penalty. All a provisional does is speed up this process if that becomes your choice. No one is ever forced to play a ball from deep in the woods if they don't want to do so. If someone chooses not to look they might very well be giving up an opportunity at recovery, so it works both ways. But, regardless, they will ALWAYS have the option of hitting another shot from the previous location, so no advantage is gained over the field.

[Pete Blaisdell]

   I refer you to USGA Decision 27-2B/2

   Pretty cut and dried. Should give you the info you seek. Echoes what Pete Palotta posted.

[Brent Hutto]

Thanks for the link, Pete.

So the other player is entirely within his rights to go look for that ball while the first player is racing to the cup to retrieve his ball. And in match play it's no more gamesmanship than any number of other tactics I suppose.

It would still be a ludicrous (IMO) sight to watch the first player literally drop his clubs and sprint to the hole in hopes of pulling his ball from the before the other guy can sprint into the wood and look for the original.

[Michael Whitaker]

Here is Pete's decision:

27-2b/2
When Provisional Ball Holed Becomes Ball in Play

Q.At a short hole, A's tee shot may be out of bounds or lost, so he plays a provisional ball, which he holes. A does not wish to look for his original ball. B, A's opponent or a fellow-competitor, goes to look for the original ball. When does the provisional ball become the ball in play?

A.In equity (Rule 1-4) the provisional ball becomes the ball in play as soon as A picks it out of the hole, provided his original ball has not already been found in bounds within five minutes of B starting to search for it.