[JC Jones]

So my 30 handicap father in law just said "I don't think this hole makes sense, it seems like the risk/reward is off if EVERYBODY bails out right"

I think that is a keen observation.  Should they shorten 11 to make the risk/reward balance make sense because it doesn't seem like many take the risk.

[Dwight Phelps]

One of the first things I remember reading about golf architecture was a comment about ANGC #11 saying it now played too long and would be better to shorten or move back to original tees, widen the fairway to the right, and re-introduce the long-gone fairway bunker in the right center of the fairway.

This observation caught my imagination - I really like the idea of a wider faiway and centerline bunker - it would allow players to challenge the bunker to the right for a better angle than is currently available on the hole.

Please note - I have never played or walked ANGC - all my observations are from TV and books only.

[Phil McDade]

So my 30 handicap father in law just said "I don't think this hole makes sense, it seems like the risk/reward is off if EVERYBODY bails out right"

I think that is a keen observation.  Should they shorten 11 to make the risk/reward balance make sense because it doesn't seem like many take the risk.

No -- the greatness of Augusta National as a championship venue is its great ying and yang -- easy holes followed by hard ones, then easy, then hard, with the course yo-yoing the player for all 18 holes. Doak's thread from a couple of years ago addresses this:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47931.0.html (correct link now)

In my view, some holes at majors should just be a bi..ch to par; 11 fits the bill perfectly.

[Keith Grande]

Moving the tees right, adding trees, and removing the bunker all served to reduce strategic options from this hole.  Now it an only be played one way from off the tee. 

[Mark Bourgeois]

The tree planting wrecked the strategy of this hole. To Keith's point the planted trees on the right were located in what formerly was Position A. Now, with the driving corridor over to the left, a second shot taking the direct route raises the risk beyond apparently what the pros calculate the reward to be. So most bail out.

[Jordan Standefer]

How much of the bailing out that we saw today was because of the pin position?  I would guess that most guys were trying to hit a big hook into the center of the green (best case scenario) knowing that they would end up in the bail out area right (worst case scenario) if they didn't pull it off.

If the pin was in a more benign position, like front right, I think we'd see more players attacking the green.

That was my first thought anyhow.

[Tim Martin]

So my 30 handicap father in law just said "I don't think this hole makes sense, it seems like the risk/reward is off if EVERYBODY bails out right"

I think that is a keen observation.  Should they shorten 11 to make the risk/reward balance make sense because it doesn't seem like many take the risk.

My initial reaction is that he is a very astute individual but then I considered that he allowed you to marry his daughter....

[BCrosby]

The current 11th is a bad hole. Hundreds of new trees force you down the left side of the old, much wider fw. Even if you find the very narrow landing zone, you are left with the worst possible angle into the green. Which is why almost everyone bails right, hoping to save par with a chip back to the green. There is sometimes a fine line between making a hole harder and making it dopey.  

Take out the trees, restore the old fw width and put back the PN bunker in the middle of the fw. It would still be a hard hole, but a vastly more interesting one.

Bob    

[Patrick_Mucci]

I believe that Ben Hogan or another prominent golfer once stated that if you saw their ball near the flag, that they had pulled or hooked their second shot badly.

# 11 is a fabulous hole, although I preferred it before all the planting to the right side.

The second shot is one of the most daunting risk/reward shots in golf

[Tom_Doak]

So my 30 handicap father in law just said "I don't think this hole makes sense, it seems like the risk/reward is off if EVERYBODY bails out right"

I think that is a keen observation.  Should they shorten 11 to make the risk/reward balance make sense because it doesn't seem like many take the risk.

No -- the greatness of Augusta National as a championship venue is its great ying and yang -- easy holes followed by hard ones, then easy, then hard, with the course yo-yoing the player for all 18 holes. Doak's thread from a couple of years ago addresses this:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47931.0.html (correct link now)

In my view, some holes at majors should just be a bi..ch to par; 11 fits the bill perfectly.

Phil:

The 11th was always a hard hole, before all the trees.  They are just overkill in my view.  But I don't want to see the hole shortened as JC says ... as the other thread espouses, the golf is more interesting if there is a variety of harder and easier holes, rather than a steady stream of "balanced" holes.

Somewhere many years ago I wrote that 11-12-13 represented the three different schools of architecture ... 12 is penal with the water in front and bunker in back, 13 is heroic because of the second-shot decision.  11 was strategic ... if you played to the right to get an angle to the pin, it also made you more likely to pull the approach into the water.  It's not strategic anymore.

[Wyatt Halliday]

So my 30 handicap father in law just said "I don't think this hole makes sense, it seems like the risk/reward is off if EVERYBODY bails out right"

I think that is a keen observation.  Should they shorten 11 to make the risk/reward balance make sense because it doesn't seem like many take the risk.

No -- the greatness of Augusta National as a championship venue is its great ying and yang -- easy holes followed by hard ones, then easy, then hard, with the course yo-yoing the player for all 18 holes. Doak's thread from a couple of years ago addresses this:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47931.0.html (correct link now)

In my view, some holes at majors should just be a bi..ch to par; 11 fits the bill perfectly.

Phil:

The 11th was always a hard hole, before all the trees.  They are just overkill in my view.  But I don't want to see the hole shortened as JC says ... as the other thread espouses, the golf is more interesting if there is a variety of harder and easier holes, rather than a steady stream of "balanced" holes.

Somewhere many years ago I wrote that 11-12-13 represented the three different schools of architecture ... 12 is penal with the water in front and bunker in back, 13 is heroic because of the second-shot decision.  11 was strategic ... if you played to the right to get an angle to the pin, it also made you more likely to pull the approach into the water.  It's not strategic anymore.

Tom,

Just for clarification, you mean playing right off the tee on 11 correct?

[archie_struthers]

 

Leave the distance , take the trees out

[Scott McWethy]

From a fan viewpoint, it is the most boring hole to watch these days.  Unless you bust it 300+ yards off the tee, most every player just bails right on the second shot because the risk is too great to play at the green.  I think it's a great hole turned average.  I'd love to see these guys be able to play a shot between 180 and 210 into that green to make things more exciting.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,

From 180 to 210 NOBODY is going to attack that flag off of the lies at 180 to 210 when the flag is to the left portion of the green in a medal play tournament.

You can't win the Masters on # 11, but you sure can lose it there, especially with dumb play.

Just ask Larry Mize

[BCowan]

Does anyone know the reason for taking the creek out and making it a pond on #11?  (Drainage/Retention)?

[Tom_Doak]

Scott,

From 180 to 210 NOBODY is going to attack that flag off of the lies at 180 to 210 when the flag is to the left portion of the green in a medal play tournament.

You can't win the Masters on # 11, but you sure can lose it there, especially with dumb play.

Just ask Larry Mize

Shouldn't you really ask Raymond Floyd?

P.S. to Wyatt:  Yes, in my description above I meant playing to the right off the tee on #11, which you can't do anymore.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,

From 180 to 210 NOBODY is going to attack that flag off of the lies at 180 to 210 when the flag is to the left portion of the green in a medal play tournament.

You can't win the Masters on # 11, but you sure can lose it there, especially with dumb play.

Just ask Larry Mize

Shouldn't you really ask Raymond Floyd?

He certainly suffered on that hole
With Ray, we know the result of his shot into # 11, but I'm not sure we know his intent.
Larry indicated that he played away from the water as have numerous others

P.S. to Wyatt:  Yes, in my description above I meant playing to the right off the tee on #11, which you can't do anymore.

It's a very uncomfortable tee shot now, one that essentially forces the golfer to have another awkward angle into that green from the fairway.
Before the trees, by driving right, you had an easier angle of attack into the green.

In addition the terrain short of the green allows the golfer to play conservatively

[Scott McWethy]

Pat, I'm not saying to fire right at the flag.  I would just like to see some guys put the ball on the green.  I thought the flag yesterday was in a good spot for some guys to be able to put it pin high on the right side of the green.  As a spectator, I'd like to see a portion of the field have a chance to putt for a birdie, instead of playing 20 to 30 yards right of the green and chipping all day.  I think with the demands on the tee shot, the risk/reward on the second shot has become irrelevant for most players.  With the pin position today in the back of the green, I would imagine 90% of the field is going to lay up short of the green and it will become a chipping contest.  I just think it would bring a little more excitement to a hole that has become increasingly boring to watch with the added length and trees.          

[Will Lozier]

With Ray, we know the result of his shot into # 11, but I'm not sure we know his intent.

Patrick,

Interesting that you claimed to know the intent of Nicklaus' tee shot on #13 in '86 on another thread yesterday.  Claiming to know what the greatest player and thinker around a golf course - EVER - was actually thinking during perhaps his greatest round is the height of arrogance.  Why wouldn't Nicklaus have pulled the 3-wood to draw his tee shot around the corner using the slope of the landing area to gain a distinct advantage for his approach - in terms of his lie and angle into the green - on one of the great risk/reward shots in the world?  

Just a few posts ago, you again claimed to know EVERY player's intent on the approach at #11 - From 180 to 210 NOBODY is going to attack that flag off of the lies at 180 to 210 when the flag is to the left portion of the green in a medal play tournament. Are you now not so certain thinking back to Floyd?  Yes, Hogan did state his intent.  That doesn't mean there aren't PGA players today who wouldn't be, perhaps foolishly, daring enough to go at a left pin...and perhaps pull it off.  Furthermore, there are multiple ways to get the ball to that pin.  Can you think of another method rather than flying it?

[Tim_Weiman]

My two observations:

1) Wow, the view from the new back tee is terrifying. Very tight.

2) Besides everything else, the number of the hole may weigh against firing at the pin. Too early to risk being taken out of the tournament.

[Phil McDade]

I'm also wondering if we're making observations about 11 based on yesterday's (small?) sample size. The wind yesterday seemed to be against the players on 11, thus shortening their drives, and with yesterday's pin (a really nasty pin with the winds yesterday; see this: http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golf-central/hole-locations-round-1-2014-masters/) I can see a lot of players simply bailing out to the right. As Pat notes, you can easily lose the tournament around Amen Corner (see Dufner); also notable to me yesterday was that many players had difficulty judging the wind at 12, which is nearly adjacent to the 11th green. Maybe the smart option was short and right of that green.

[Will Lozier]

I saw quite a few players yesterday pin high 15-20' right hitting obviously a draw.  Not everyone was "bailing out". 

[Scott McWethy]

Phil, I certainly see your point and I'm sure it was the prudent play given the conditions yesterday.  The point I was trying to make is that it wasn't just yesterday.  Ever since they lengthened the hole and added the trees making that tee shot even harder, this hole is very boring to watch as a spectator.

Tom mentioned Raymond Floyd's heartbreak on that hole.  Given the holes current state, it would never happen these days because everyone bails out to the right on the hole.  He hit a bad shot and paid the price.  At least he was in a position where he could play to the green.  I'm a Masters fan and love the saying that the Masters begins on the back nine on Sunday.  I love the excitement and the players that make the great shots we'll remember for the rest of our lives.  I just don't think the 11th hole provides that opportunity these days.
  
Pat, I'm not an expert on the hole to speak about it from an architectural standpoint and whether the hole is better today than 20 years ago.  I'm sure Hogan's comments about playing out to the right served him and some others very well over the years.  I believe it was also Hogan that said he would never play to the green on Winged Foot's par three 10th hole.  He'd prefer to lay up in front, chip on and make his one putt par.  A strategy that worked well for him.  However, I don't recall too many players doing the same thing when the PGA and US Open were played there in recent years.  It's just a different game now with the technology and how these pros can hit the ball a long way and control it so well.  The 11th at Augusta is a very hard hole and nothing wrong with that, but I'm just not a fan watching a majority of the field taking three shots to put the ball on the green.            

[BHoover]

I'll add the disclaimer that I've never played ANGC (and not holding my breath that I ever will) nor have I seen the course in person, so my observations are based solely on what I see on television (I haven't even played the course in video game form).  That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with having a ball-buster par 4 that exceeds 500 yards in length.  So I wouldn't necessarily want to see the 11th shortened.  But, I would like to see the trees on the right cleared out so that players have a chance to hit a big slinging right-to-left shot off the tee.  Those trees don't seem to allow that option any longer, unless you're Bubba Watson and can hit it both miles and curve the ball ridiculously.

[Keith Grande]

Question - if they left the hole in its present form, but built a large bunker where the pond is, would that make it a more interesting and exciting hole?

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()