[David_Tepper]

NY Times article on AGNC #15:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/10/sports/golf/masters-dreams-are-dashed-at-augusta-nationals-15th-hole.html?hpw&rref=sports&_r=0

[JMEvensky]

NY Times article on AGNC #15:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/10/sports/golf/masters-dreams-are-dashed-at-augusta-nationals-15th-hole.html?hpw&rref=sports&_r=0

Saw this and thought about posting the link--then I realized you'd do it.

What took you so long?

[Patrick_Mucci]

David & JME,

Do all of those comments have a familiar ring ?

I'm just shocked that I wasn't quoted 

[David_Tepper]

I thought one of the more interesting items in the article was that the bunker right of the green was added at Ben Hogan's suggestion and was not part of the original design. Does anyone know what year that bunker was added?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I thought one of the more interesting items in the article was that the bunker right of the green was added at Ben Hogan's suggestion and was not part of the original design. Does anyone know what year that bunker was added?

1957

[Thomas Dai]

Before the bunker was installed in 1957, and given that there was presumably no rough, were players able to play to the 15th green by coming in with a big hook and kinda running the ball around the right hand side of the pond? Just curious.

atb

[Patrick_Mucci]

Before the bunker was installed in 1957, and given that there was presumably no rough, were players able to play to the 15th green by coming in with a big hook and kinda running the ball around the right hand side of the pond? Just curious.

No,

There were trees on the right to contend with and a big hook into that green, which slopes significantly from high right to low left, is not a shot that will yield positive results most of the time.

[Jason Thurman]

Thomas, the pond wasn't even a pond until 1955. You can see in the 1941 aerial that it was originally a stream running all the way across the front of 15 from 17 fairway. By the time the pond was brought into existence in 1955, the trees right would have been very tight to the water's edge, if there was even an edge on the right side at all (I'm unable to confirm the pond's shape at that time, but looking for more evidence). I can't imagine many people would aim for a 5 yard wide sliver of land between trees and water to play a run-up shot, and those that did had two years before the bunker was installed.

The bailout on 15 has always been long and right. The bunker added some penalty to employing that strategy and forced players who bailed to choose between leaving themselves a sand shot or going well long off the rear downslope to leave a dicey approach back toward the water.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Balls ending up long and right are left with one of the diciest recoveries in golf.

You're hitting from a tightly mown area to a narrow green that runs away from you with a bank behind it that slopes precipitously into the water.

Nerves of steel and lots of talent are required for that shot.

I actually think the bunker is a prefered LZ provided you don't plug.

[Thomas Dai]

Jason and Pat,

Thank you for these insights about the 15th. Now I have a better understanding of the holes development and playability.

Off to watch the TV coverage.

atb

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

I'm not sure you bothered to read Josh Pettit's post with the original Masters program, because you know the course so well, but I thought you'd get a kick out of Dr. MacKenzie's description of the original 6th hole (today's 15th) herein:



Now, I don't know if the hole ever really played the way MacKenzie intended it to be played -- and neither do you -- but it seems that Dr. MacKenzie's description of the intent is at odds with your answer to Thomas Dai's question, above.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

MacKenzie's statement is not at odds with my response to Thomas Dai's inquiry.

If you look closely at the right side of the schematic you'll notice two significant features.
1.   The tree line
2.   The raised "large hillock" to the right of the green

Mackenzie is suggesting that the golfer play his second shot TO THE RIGHT, "OFF" that "large hillock"

That shot is dramatically different from a "big hook" into the green.

But you knew that, right ?

[Sven Nilsen]

The most interesting aspect of the description of the 15th is that AM clearly describes the fronting water as a pond, and not as the stream that existed for the early years of the course. 

This raises two thoughts:

1.  Was it his intention all along to have the pond created?

2.  Why was the pond not created from the get go (cost being one obvious answer)?

Interesting to think that what is there today may more closely resemble his desires for the hole than what was initially built.

[Sven Nilsen]

That being said, I think he would hate the trees on the left.

[Patrick_Mucci]

That being said, I think he would hate the trees on the left.

Sven,

They're in his schematic.

I also noticed the reference to the pond and had the same question.

It makes you question the alleged quote as well.

[David_Tepper]

Phil Mickelson didn't play it so perfectly today.

[Jim Nugent]

The most interesting aspect of the description of the 15th is that AM clearly describes the fronting water as a pond, and not as the stream that existed for the early years of the course. 

This raises two thoughts:

1.  Was it his intention all along to have the pond created?

2.  Why was the pond not created from the get go (cost being one obvious answer)?

Interesting to think that what is there today may more closely resemble his desires for the hole than what was initially built.

I noticed the pond reference as well.  But some of Mac's routing drawings show a stream.  So it may not be so clear cut. 

[Sven Nilsen]

That being said, I think he would hate the trees on the left.

Sven,

They're in his schematic.

I also noticed the reference to the pond and had the same question.

It makes you question the alleged quote as well.

Pat:

The trees in the schematic were a group of three small pines that the player could play left or right of, which is in line with AM's thoughts on maneuvering for position from the tee onwards. 

Do you think they way that cluster evolved is in accord with AM's intentions for the hole?

Sven

[DMoriarty]

Sven, would you feel the same if they they hadn't planted all the trees on the right?

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven, would you feel the same if they they hadn't planted all the trees on the right?

David:

I think both moves limited the options for setting up a second or third shot.




Sven

[DMoriarty]

Thanks for posting that photo again.  The photo really highlights how much room there was to actually plot a path to the left of the (yet grown up) trees, so that the short hitter could tack his way to an ideal angle for the third shot.   Once that space left was lost and once the trees grew up, though, it seems like there would probably have been plenty of room to tack to the same or similar position by playing well right off the tee, then playing back to the left side, essentially going around the trees left.  But the addition of the trees right seems like it would have closed off this option as well for the short hitter.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The trees in the schematic were a group of three small pines that the player could play left or right of, which is in line with AM's thoughts on maneuvering for position from the tee onwards. 

Sven,

Actually, you could play over them, no need to go left or right.

I'm sure that AM was enough of a visionary to understand that those trees  would grow and provide a far more significant impediment to advancing one 's ball.

If you view numerous photos from circa 1933-4 you see an abundance of small trees that will mature over the years and shape the playing corridors.

In addition, the two curators of the course who were with AM from the inception, Jones and Roberts, were there until 1971 and 1977 respectively, hence I believe that the course evolved as they planned, not as you theorize

Do you think they way that cluster evolved is in accord with AM's intentions for the hole?

Sven

What makes you think that intentions for # 15 were solely AM's, absent any input from Jones ?

Do you know what AM's long term intentions were ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

The trees in the schematic were a group of three small pines that the player could play left or right of, which is in line with AM's thoughts on maneuvering for position from the tee onwards. 

Sven,

Actually, you could play over them, no need to go left or right.

I'm sure that AM was enough of a visionary to understand that those trees would grow and provide a far more significant impediment to advancing one 's ball.

If you view numerous photos from circa 1933-4 you see an abundance of small trees that will mature over the years and shape the playing corridors.

In addition, the two curators of the course who were with AM from the inception, Jones and Roberts, were there until 1971 and 1977 respectively, hence I believe that the course evolved as they planned, not as you might theorize

Do you think they way that cluster evolved is in accord with AM's intentions for the hole?

What makes you think that intentions for # 15 were solely AM's, absent any input from Jones ?

And, do you know what AM's intentions were ?

[Sven Nilsen]

What makes you think that intentions for # 15 were solely AM's, absent any input from Jones ?

Because some moron once told me it wasn't a collaboration.

And, do you know what AM's intentions were?

I know what the quote attributed to Mackenzie said in the program for the inaugural tournament.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The trees in the schematic were a group of three small pines that the player could play left or right of,

Look again !

Look at the schematic on the bottom of the page.

You'll notice MORE than three trees and they aren't small

which is in line with AM's thoughts on maneuvering for position from the tee onwards. 

Again, that's based on tour interpretation of AM's thoughts.

Do you think they way that cluster evolved is in accord with AM's intentions for the hole?

Again, I don't know what his intentions were, do you ?

Sven

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