[Bill Brightly]

My club is going to create a scorecard with two "composite" courses, one that combines black-blue-white-red (forward), and one for seniors that combines some white and some reds. I am thrilled, because I sort of led the charge for the former, and the later was requested by a few of the seniors. I think this is a low cost way to add interest to a course that the members have played a thousand times, a quick way to add FUN to the game.

My problem is that while those in charge agreed with 95% of my suggested tees, the one they rejected is using the red tees on a short par 4 for the senior composite scorecard. For those of you familiar with Hackensack, it is our "famous" tree hole pictured below.




(I know it is a stupid tree, but it has been there since the course opened.) It plays 335 from the Blues, 350 from the Blacks, and the tree is no issue for better players, we go right over it. (I hit 3 wood to stay short of the fairway bunkers.) But most shorter hitters have to play left of the tree, or go UNDER it... There is a forward tee 25 yards to the left, halfway down the hill.The hole is 300 from there, playing uphill.

I think it is a FAR better hole from there for shorter hitters. The tree is to the side, and now these players have to deal with the fairway bunkers. It may be one of the few times these players may consider hitting less than driver to avoid reaching a fairway bunker. Or they can be aggressive and try to split the bunkers to get into wedge range. I'm crushed that the powers that be think an already short hole is not one that needs to be shortened.

Thoughts?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

I'm familiar with the hole.

Why not suggest splitting the hole with an "/", with the long yardage on one side of the slash and the short yardage on the other.

By July 1st you should know which direction and which tee is the tee of choice.

And, it also gives you the option of altering play on the hole until a definitive selection is made.

Hope that helps

[Bill Brightly]

Pat,

We are going to get the composite courses rated, so that you could enter scores from 6 sets of tees: Black, Blue, White, Red, Long composite or   the Hawthorne tees (short composite.) As an aside, Tom Hawthorne is our old pro, who worked for a Scottish pro of some note: Charles Mayo.

So if you start out playing the Hawthorne course, you really should continue playing the assigned tees.

[Jim_Kennedy]

95% ain't too bad Bill - give yourself a pat on the back. 

[Gary Slatter]

Bill, Trees are never stupid, they are not capable of being stupid.  Now golfers, we can often be stupid, and as my friend in Atlanta recently told me, there's no cure for stupid!

[Lyne Morrison]

Bill, I copied this image when you posted it a few years back for my 'poor example' file, of tee siting for women golfers.

Do you not feel there is some irony in the fact that the location is apparently satisfactory for the women members, yet the same situation - teeing up and having to play away from, or under the tree - is seen as problematic for the shorter hitting men?

Something not quite right there.

With regards your question why not have the seniors play both tees for a temporary period, prior to the rating, and then decide which tee works best for the Hawthorne Course?

It is also worth considering that 300 yards from the forward tee - uphill, is not a 'short' hole, for most seniors. This is a more reasonable yardage, that is a better fit for their game but what is the true playing yardage - 325y? I have my doubts about driver wedge for a senior, this hole may play longer than you think for these golfers.

Perhaps this may also be a good time to discuss the true merit or value of this particular, problematic, tree - or alternatively - the problematic location of the red tee.

Lyne

[Bill Brightly]

Lyne,

I'm glad that you responded, and I agree that this was one of the worst womens tees you could ever find! The picture I posted above is old, and we have added a newer red tee far to the left and halfway down the hill. You can see the new tee on this aerial, just below the irrigation pond. I think this shows how the women can now easily avoid the tree.



But can you guess what happened when we put this tee in? A few of the women got mad and complained. They said they liked the challenege of going UNDER the tree... And the very few that could go over the tree were not happy that they had lost a huge competitive advantage.

In any event, the new red tee to the left near the pond is the one I feel STRONGLY should be used on the senior composite course.

[Brett_Morrissy]

well done Bill, I think this concept could be used widely, as it is a really creative solution - the difficult part for me in the process is trying to define exactly why we know it is good, and why the collective "they" cannot see the merit.

So, WHY do you feel STRONGLY that this tee should be used - exactly, what are the elements this tee shot provides that enhances or balances out this hole as it sits in routing and flow of holes and shots? How did you describe the benefits in plan? It seems to me that it could be even shorter and still be interesting and stimulating, but I of course don't know the hole, so your opinion is what matters. From the comments you made above to Lynne's post, it seems the Ladies may have had a big say in the decision about this hole as part of your plan?

[Bill Brightly]

Brett,

To be clear, a new forward tee has already been built, so the ladies no long have to go under the tree. This new tee is far to the left, and halway down the hill. This is the tee I feel should be used on the senior composite course. My reasons are that the big tree is a ridiculous obstacle to ak shorter hitters to deal with off the tee. Secondly, from the forward tee, player now can reach all the fairway bunker, so they have to make a choice. Maybe some will hit 3 wood short of the right bunker, (preferred angle to the green is from the right.) Other will try to split the bunkers to get closer. Options are fun.

But most importantly, the seniors who will play this composite course have probably played HGC a thousand times. The lower left tee will be a new and fun change for them. I know they will enjoy it, but others are looking to keep the total yardage on the scorecard above some mythical number...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

I think "scorecard" yardage is a problem at local clubs today.

From the lower tee that hole plays uphill and longer than the yardage on the card.

Years ago Bobby Jones declared that Montclair was the longest short course that he had ever played.

Golfers forget that the important issue is how a hole plays, and not as it appears on a scorecard

[Bill Brightly]

Bill,
Golfers forget that the important issue is how a hole plays, and not as it appears on a scorecard

Bingo. That comment just earned you a round at HGC with our Golf Chair! He happens to be a great player and better guy, but has SOOOO much to learn about architecture... We should play the senior composite with no more than a four iron... I think that would make the point, right?

[Jud_T]

Sounds like a no brained to use the tee you suggest.  Lock 'em in a room, spike the coffee with LSD and play the worst "play it forward" ad you can find at full volume.  Seriously, as I've gotten older I've enjoyed playing much more once getting over macho distance envy.

[Adam Clayman]

Bill, will the committee listen to Mike Davis? If so, just show them recorded versions of the several times Mike has done this type of setup for u.s. opens. Torrey in 08' comes to mind, first.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,
Golfers forget that the important issue is how a hole plays, and not as it appears on a scorecard

Bingo.

That comment just earned you a round at HGC with our Golf Chair! He happens to be a great player and better guy, but has SOOOO much to learn about architecture...

I'm available.

We should play the senior composite with no more than a four iron...

Speak for yourself young man.

From the lower tee you'll get no roll and the hole will play far longer than the yardage indicates.

I think that would make the point, right?

Yes, I think it would

[Carl Johnson]

Bill, my thought is that you are very, very lucky.  You have a golf committee that would even think about this sort of thing.

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