[Tim Johnson]

One of the reasons for my enjoyment of Carne is that it was not "constructed" but  Hackett simply let the lay of the land dictate where and how the course was to be laid out.

While I cant disagree with Sean regarding a bigger budget would lead to a better course as I haven't been at Carne enough to say it is possible nor do I have the necessary knowledge to build a course. But an argument can be made that there are a lot of courses that were hurt by a larger budget to make it "better" when simply letting the land dictate the layout. Sometimes simple is better. I would have loved to see what Hackett would have done at Trump International.

[Tom_Doak]

Most links golf is above average by its nature, but there are a lot of links courses that could have been much better if they'd been given a reasonably interesting set of greens.  I don't mean they had to have wild greens; a lot of links just have greens that are pretty boring, especially the ones built after 1960 -- Hillside and Waterville come immediately to mind.

[Charlie Gallagher]

Ally,
   I will give Norman that, he was bold, but I am confident that there are other architects that would have avoided some of the mistakes. I know that there was a significant amount of tweeking that occured after the course was constructed. They did tinker with the landing area on 3, I believe they adjusted the width of fairway on 15, and I also believe there was some expansion of the collection area around 18th green.
   As I said before, the environmental challenges made Doonbeg a harder site to fit good golf into, but two of the holes with poor design elements are on the flatter, interior land that is more agricultural than links.  To be fair, I think the opener at Doonbeg is a corker of a hole, and I like a number of the other holes and think they work well.
   There was a comment earlier about amateurs critiquing professionals. I think its fair to say that professionals have to be cognizant of many elements of design that amateurs are ignorant about;  site restrictions certainly influenced Norman's choices at Doonbeg, and amateurs often are unmindful of the importance of drainage, the costs of moving material on site, and lots of other intricasies, but there seem to be a number of professionals who are just plain better at consistently making good design decisions than others. My bet is despite the good choices Norman made at Doonbeg, other architects would have made fewer errors. I'd also add that Golf Club Atlas is by its nature is a web site where there is going to necessarily be amateur criticism of professional's work product. That doesn't render the critique instantly inaccurate.
 

[Ryan Coles]

Most links golf is above average by its nature, but there are a lot of links courses that could have been much better if they'd been given a reasonably interesting set of greens.  I don't mean they had to have wild greens; a lot of links just have greens that are pretty boring, especially the ones built after 1960 -- Hillside and Waterville come immediately to mind.

Tom

Other than the old course, in your view, which greens are the exception to this rule?

[Ryan Coles]

Carne
Princes
Royal Porthcawl

I really don't know about Carne because its a wild site.  I suspect that if there was a bigger budget, perhaps some land could have been shifted to create a better course, but that is a guess.  

Porthcawl uses the land pretty well I think.  I always think the features are not terribly adventurous, but for all that, its a very good course.  

I like Princes a lot, but I am sure if it were only 18 holes a better design could be had.  The land is actually quite good but because of the squeeze for 27 holes, I get the feeling there is no room to run holes contrary to the dunes system.  as it holes, many holes run between the low lying dunes.  Good stuff for sure, but man, if they could go for a restoration of the original course it may be a world beater.

I think more could have been had out of Hillside.  I think more could be had out of Burham. The course is based around what was the available land, but things have changed.  There is an entire dune ridge practically untouched and a few holes on the Channel Course which are outstanding.

Ciao

Sean

Agree re: Channel Course Holes. Whereabouts are the untouched dunes?

[Sean_A]

Carne
Princes
Royal Porthcawl

I really don't know about Carne because its a wild site.  I suspect that if there was a bigger budget, perhaps some land could have been shifted to create a better course, but that is a guess.  

Porthcawl uses the land pretty well I think.  I always think the features are not terribly adventurous, but for all that, its a very good course.  

I like Princes a lot, but I am sure if it were only 18 holes a better design could be had.  The land is actually quite good but because of the squeeze for 27 holes, I get the feeling there is no room to run holes contrary to the dunes system.  as it holes, many holes run between the low lying dunes.  Good stuff for sure, but man, if they could go for a restoration of the original course it may be a world beater.

I think more could have been had out of Hillside.  I think more could be had out of Burham. The course is based around what was the available land, but things have changed.  There is an entire dune ridge practically untouched and a few holes on the Channel Course which are outstanding.

Ciao

Sean

Agree re: Channel Course Holes. Whereabouts are the untouched dunes?

Yes, the Channel Course is one of the best 9 holers in the UK and nobody talks about it.  4, 6, 8 & 9 are all excelent holes.  Its only £20 to play all day.  Sometimes I hop off the Champ Course after the 15th and play 7-9 on the Channel then hop back onto the 18th.  I actually think the finish on the Channel gives the Champ Course a rund for its money.   

Right down the middle of the property!  After crossing the dune from 9 to 10, it is on the right for the length of 10, 11 and 12 green heads back (#s 7 & 8 going out) into the dune.  There is a huge reservoir in the middle of this section off the 12th fairway.  Once you climb up there the unused dunes are obvious.  Okay, I like the flat holes, but I would also like a hole or two more like the 10th tee shot or the 15th.  maybe I am greedy and should just leave well enough alone, but that lovely short 8th always makes me wonder what if....

Ciao

[Pete Lavallee]

The Links at Spanish Bay was built on an old sand quarry and was grassed with fescue. Carts killed all of it off and the course doesn't play like the links it was designed to be!

[Jaeger Kovich]

How is the fescue coming along at Awarii Dunes? Did they complete their conversion to fescue? Either way, that place is a huge disappointment.

[Mark Pearce]

Noordwijkse must be the standard bearer here.  It's a really good golf course but it's on an absolutely world class bit of land and could have been one of the absolute greats.

[Thomas Dai]

Tenby - have all 18-holes on the seaward side of the railway line.
Portstewart - re-work the back-9 of the Strand course - lots of space available
Royal St Georges - can't be specific, but I've always felt that given the amount of land/space available more could be made of this opportunity
Pyle & Kenfig - 'if only' you could use more of the dunes adjacent to the back-9 toward the seashore
Saunton - not a criticism of the two current courses, but just imagine what could be done golf-wise in the dunes beyond the current two courses
St Andrews - a composite course for holding The Open using holes 1, 11, 16, 17 & 18 from TOC with the balance of the holes coming from the New, Eden and Jubilee Courses.
Cruden Bay - use the dunes to the rear/right of the 4th green and all along the left of the 5th, 6th and 7th holes.
Enniscrone - use the dunes west of holes 12, 13 and 14 of the Championship course. They are big dunes though, maybe too big, so perhaps you'd need to head west along the shore of the River Moy after the 11th or 12th and then follow the shoreline all the way around the point until rejoining the existing course along the shoreline at the rear of 15th tee.
County Sligo - stop using holes 1, 2, 3, 17 and 18. Move the clubhouse to the top of the rise near the 5th tee and play in the land below incorporating the land of the existing Bomore course plus the dunes to the north and east of the existing 10th/11th/12th holes. Trouble is, this would mean not playing the current wonderful par-3 4th so might have to compromise and reinstate the vile 17th and use the wonderful 4th green as the 18th!
Speculation, speculation, speculation, fun, fun, fun!

atb

[Scott Weersing]

I have two courses that could have been better:

1. Sandpines, Florence, OR. It has plenty of sand but they decided to go with a big lake on 17 and 18. It is Oregon's version of the Blue Monster.
Many have written that it is a missed opportunity. I still remember some fun rounds there on the way to Bandon, back when Bandon only had two courses.

2. Bandon Preserve- This one could have some longer holes and some of the greens could be revamped. The greens are not your typically Coore Crenshaw greens. They have way too many mounds on the greens and around the greens. The views are great but I was hoping for more holes like no. 2 and no 5 at Bandon Trails. There are 13 holes at the Preserve and only 4 I can remember. I would have liked to see 9 great par 3 holes rather than 13.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()