[JC Jones]

I'm not sure the English model is one that would work here.  I think we want some sort of exclusivity and don't want to share the course with daily fee people.  Many courses already have a quasi-English model, in the form of the season pass.

JC,

   Take the Australia model.  Please explain the English private model, i didn't know that the public was allowed on Sat morning?  What if that exclusivity is hanging on by it's chin and is a great course that could potentially end up a housing development?  Due to inability of old folk (who make the rules) to adjust or open up their eyes to another model?  Season passes are offered at public US courses with no restricted times for those season pass members (so it is pointless).  

Season passes are valuable for public courses like Radrick or others because they give the value to the public golfer who likes the "feeling" of private.  I don't think exclusivity will ever go out of fashion because not everyone wants to hang out with you or anyone else, even if you or they can "pay the fee."

[BCowan]

I'm not sure the English model is one that would work here.  I think we want some sort of exclusivity and don't want to share the course with daily fee people.  Many courses already have a quasi-English model, in the form of the season pass.

JC,

   Take the Australia model.  Please explain the English private model, i didn't know that the public was allowed on Sat morning?  What if that exclusivity is hanging on by it's chin and is a great course that could potentially end up a housing development?  Due to inability of old folk (who make the rules) to adjust or open up their eyes to another model?  Season passes are offered at public US courses with no restricted times for those season pass members (so it is pointless).  

Season passes are valuable for public courses like Radrick or others because they give the value to the public golfer who likes the "feeling" of private.  I don't think exclusivity will ever go out of fashion because not everyone wants to hang out with you or anyone else, even if you or they can "pay the fee."

It is a season membership pass, they have the right to not renew a membership from the likes of you  !
Yeah, exclusivity is really doing well!  Does your club have a 3-5 year waiting list?

[Mike Sweeney]

I'm not sure the English model is one that would work here.  I think we want some sort of exclusivity and don't want to share the course with daily fee people.  Many courses already have a quasi-English model, in the form of the season pass.

JC,

1. I really don't understand what you are saying, please clarify.

2. I have taken many cheap shot at your Midwest roots, but once you drive above Fairfield County (CT) and exclude "Inside 128" in Boston, New England golf has a different vibe. Private is much closer to London than NYC.

3. I said "Euro" not "England". John Kavanaugh will take his cheap shots at me, but the reality is I am a member of Enniscrone Golf Club in Ireland. It makes no sense, and John will not dip into his frequent flyer account to even visit his heritage let alone pay a membership fee in Ireland. I hide it from my 1/2 English, 1/2 Ukraine wife (who is dreaming of Bruce Springsteen at some fake Rock n Roll event in Brooklyn on a "Girl Power" night as we type), and everybody is happy that way Well, John is tortured because he has to play flat courses and we all know that he really wants to be a real member of a MacRaynor course

4. Okay, 2 and 3 are GCA.com humor, but "exclusivity" is the most boring thing in the world to me. I know enough guys like me.  

[JC Jones]

Mike,

I know enough guys like you too 

[BHoover]

What's the point of this thread? I stopped paying attention days ago. Honestly, I've been staring at photos of Meghan Hardin instead.

According to the federal government, I believe I have a right to a club membership regardless of cost or ability to pay. As for exclusivity, this is the age of Obama; exclusivity is a thing of the past! So when can I expect my membership number from Seminole?

[JC Jones]

There is no point beyond hearing from people of our generation, Hoover, explaining the issues in joining more clubs.  Beyond that it is a bunch of old people and others who don't or haven't belonged to clubs trying to explain why more people of the under 35 generation don't belong to clubs.  Nonsense, really.

[BHoover]

There is no point beyond hearing from people of our generation, Hoover, explaining the issues in joining more clubs.  Beyond that it is a bunch of old people and others who don't or haven't belonged to clubs trying to explain why more people of the under 35 generation don't belong to clubs.  Nonsense, really.

So when these old folks die off, and their clubs go belly up, we should buy one in receivership.

[BCowan]

There is no point beyond hearing from people of our generation, Hoover, explaining the issues in joining more clubs.  Beyond that it is a bunch of old people and others who don't or haven't belonged to clubs trying to explain why more people of the under 35 generation don't belong to clubs.  Nonsense, really.

So when these old folks die off, and their clubs go belly up, we should buy one in receivership.

 
We got a winner

[Mike Sweeney]

I stopped paying attention days ago.

According to the federal government, I believe I have a right to a club membership regardless of cost of ability to pay.

Brian,

Congratulations. You just joined the GCA Double Standard Club with Pat Mucci, Tom Doak, and John Kavanaugh.

Who in the world is outlawing private golf clubs?

I totally support private golf, I just think the second tier should be realistic/adjust and they should blow up the club houses, tennis courts, and bocci ball courts. Let's get back to golf and if I have to let a scammer like JC Jones onto my "private" course on a Tuesday at 10 am, let's charge him full freight rather than let him on with a Rater Card so that I can attract more members on a Top 100 list, maybe.

[BHoover]

Obviously sarcasm is lost on you. I was JOKING.  

I don't care for clubhouses, food & beverage minimums and superfluous stuff either. Unfortunately the only true golf club in my area is well out of reach for me. 

[Mike Sweeney]

Obviously sarcasm is lost on you. I was JOKING.  

I don't care for clubhouses, food & beverage minimums and superfluous stuff either. Unfortunately the only true golf club in my area is well out of reach for me.  

Brian,

Honestly, I did not pick up on your humor.

And this is exactly why I started this thread. There is a niche in golf in the USA that is being missed, imo. Every area seems to have one or two "true golf clubs", and it is my opinion that there is a need for two or three.

Sean Arble posted a question about a "stigma" towards public golf. I only have one stigma towards public golf in the NYC (and other) areas. I hate 5 hour rounds, otherwise, I would not drive 45 minutes each way to Yale. There is a GREAT group of golfers at many munis. Unfortunately, I have a architecture hang-up and I can't stand around for for each and every shot. Yale is never a rarely a quick round, but it is never boring even when you don't have your "A" game (channeling Tiger while watching The Masters).

[BHoover]

Obviously sarcasm is lost on you. I was JOKING.  

I don't care for clubhouses, food & beverage minimums and superfluous stuff either. Unfortunately the only true golf club in my area is well out of reach for me. 

Brian,

Honestly, I did not pick up on your humor.

And this is exactly why I started this thread. There is a niche in golf in the USA that is being missed, imo. Every area seems to have one or two "true golf clubs", and it is my opinion that there is a need for two or three.

But it doesn't mean I want or need to know about the finances at any club that I'm never going to join.

[BCowan]

Hoover,

   The same yahoo's that love Supply side economics, think it doesn't apply to private golf clubs that are hurting.  That is the hypocrisy i love.  Voodoo golf club model

[BHoover]

Hoover,

   The same yahoo's that love Supply side economics, think it doesn't apply to private golf clubs that are hurting.  That is the hypocrisy i love.  Voodoo golf club model

I haven't read the rest of this thread so I can't comment. I enjoy the occasional steam or hot towel in a posh locker room, and it's awesome to sit in a plush leather chair and sip fine whiskey. But I'd rather play golf.

[Joe_Tucholski]

Will one of you guys that think it's valuable (necessary even) please explain how having costs online makes it more likely for you to join a club?

In no way do I think it's necessary for clubs to post membership costs online, I won't even say it will be valuable for a club to post these costs (my experiences below may lead some to believe there is value for some clubs), but I will say I want to see costs.  I've said why previously:

I didn’t like that I had to give my name and information to the club and then have the club contact me.  I felt like it was the same process when buying a car...From my perspective the only logical reasons to keep the information under wraps is so they can charge different customers different prices without upsetting those that pay more and to allow the sales guys to sell.

Jud said:

I'm flabbergasted that guys seem to have no idea of what the costs are.  That means 1) you've never belonged to a private club and 2) you don't socialize or work with many people who belong to a private club and 3) you've played very few private clubs and 4) you aren't serious about joining anyway.

1) Technically I was a member at a private club during the summers when I was 13-14, but I just knew my grandma paid for it as a Christmas gift.  I wasn't welcome in the locker room, or dining facility and only on the course and range when full members weren't around  2)  I don't socialize or work with many people who belong to a private club.  3)  Before joining a club I only played 3 private courses, all as a result of junior golf.  4)  I was serious about joining a club and did join a club.
I don't see how it is difficult to comprehend that I wasn't familiar with the process or the finances associated with private clubs.  I went to most of high school in Monterey CA.  There are a few private courses in the area, and there were outlandish rumors about million dollar membership fees and ex-presidents being denied membership.  That was my experience with private clubs.

Sean asked

Do you think there is a certain stigma about privates that pushes some folks into thinking don't think they belong there?  Do you think publishing dues and entrance fees is one way to break down a barrier thats puts people off privates?

I can say I grew up under the impression I wasn’t welcomed at private clubs.  In the US isn’t it fair to say if you’re not a member or a guest you are not welcome?  Less than a block from where I lived in Maine there was a private beach club for those who summered in the area.  Locals referred to it as the Mayflower Club because they said you had to be a descendant of someone on the Mayflower to join.  I realize now that isn’t the case but it’s symbolic of people’s beliefs.  It’s not like I grew up underprivileged.  My dad is an officer in the military (there is a pretty rigid caste system between officer and enlisted).  I do think publishing dues and entrance fees will at least let people see if it’s a realistic option.  If places aren’t publishing prices I assume it’s because they don’t want me to enquire.  It makes sense that CPC, PV, Seminole, ANGC, LACC and the likes have no membership information online…they don’t want me there.  I get the same message from other private courses that follow the same model…only it may not be the case at other places.


To talk specifics I’m willing to talk about my experiences.
1)  We move every 3 years or so due to work but wanted to have a house paid off when we retired.  Luckily both of us have managed to finish our undergrad and graduate degrees without debt, so decided to look into buying a house.  One of my requirements was it needed to be in an area with great golf.  We narrowed down places we thought we would consider living, then started to look at golf courses in these areas.  Because we had no real specific locations the number of courses to look at was overwhelming.  I ended up looking at places listed online (on sites like this or articles online) that were reportedly good values and I looked at places that published information online.  There were definitely a lot of clubs/courses I didn’t consider because I assumed they were impossible to join.  We ended up buying a house in Pinehurst and joining the club there (also provides a clubcorp membership).  From my perspective it’s very similar to the British club model.  Residents of the village have the opportunity to join the club and pay annual dues for playing privileges.  I feel very comfortable with this set up.  After one of my first posts John K said something condescending about my European Luxury cars to which I responded I drive a 1997 Jeep.  I don’t feel like fellow members will look down at me when I park the Jeep in the Pinehurst parking lot.  It’s pretty clear there are people that wouldn’t let me through their vetting process because I choose to drive an older car…and that’s probably a good thing because I don’t think I’d enjoy being a member at a club where that is the opinion of most members.

2)  We are pretty sure at some point we will move to Dayton OH (thought it was going to be last year) so I looked into the options there.  NCR is the big name course in the area.  They list their membership categories online and I saw there was a military membership category.  I contacted NCR because I saw a listed promotion on their website.  If they didn’t list a military membership category, I never would have contacted them.  I looked at other courses in the area online and don’t remember seeing information on pricing so haven’t contacted any of them, and chances are when we do move to Dayton I will play my golf at NCR or at the base course.

3)  There are a number of US members on this site who spend part of their time in the UK and have overseas memberships.  I fully expect to be a member at a club in the UK/Ireland as an overseas/international member.  When planning my month+ long trip to the UK I researched overseas memberships because I wanted to play courses that offer overseas memberships so when the time comes to join I’ll know the courses I like.  I’ve done the same thing for Ireland, and really appreciate all the information that’s available about courses in Northern Ireland with life memberships.  When the Ireland trip occurs I’ll be visiting courses that list life memberships online.

[Sean_A]

Thanks Joe.  Your responses help answer my questions.  My line of thinking had nothing to do with private clubs being snobbish because they don't publish membership info or that they must publish info.  Private clubs can do whatever they want.  I was getting more into ways privates that need more members can possibly attract them by offering more info online.  It seems like a no brainer to me and is a very common way to operate in the UK - practically all UK clubs need more members     Besides, publishing online makes it easy for clubs to check up on the competition.  It must be a pesky jobfor the Sec to call the local clubs with a fake accent  

Ciao

[Jud_T]

Joe,

So you're saying that even though there may be a more enjoyable course or club, and possibly even a less expensive one, you won't bother to look into it because they don't post prices? For instance, Dayton Country Club is a Ross course that also has military memberships.  You wouldn't even bother to call to check it out because that makes you feel unwelcome somehow?

I guess I really am a golf snob.  I'm more concerned with which course won't bore the s*#% out of me after 200 rounds and has the right vibe and only then decide whether I can afford it and how to go about joining.  Interesting to know that others view it more like buying a used car from a snooty fraternity brother.

As Sean states that most UK clubs need members, the Semi-Private model everyone is promoting on this side of the pond, while more politically correct to some, may not be the answer to our prayers.

[Sean_A]

Jud

What are you on about?  I think the bottom line for most saying use a webpage to sell a club is about hooking up potential members with a potential club.  Why you are so entrenched in thinking that membership info on a website is pointless.  Would you be upset if your club published its membership info and if so, why?

Ciao

[Jud_T]

I wouldn't be in favor of it because that would be implying that price is the best thing we have to offer and would attract members accordingly.  Golf clubs aren't a commodity.  It's not like searching for the cheapest gallon of milk in town.  If it is you're wasting a lot of time on the wrong website.

[Sean_A]

I wouldn't be in favor of it because that would be implying that price is the best thing we have to offer and would attract members accordingly.  Golf clubs aren't a commodity.  It's not like searching for the cheapest gallon of milk in town.  If it is you're wasting a lot of time on the wrong website.

Jud

Thats very bourgeois attitude  .  Of course, if you have bags of money, money isn't an issue.  But if you are on a budget, money is critical.  I am talking about the first step of membership - is it affordable?  Many don't have to ask themselves that question and they should consider themselves fortunate.  For many others the affordable question is easily the most important question.  You seem to be talking about a guy who will join a club, its just a question of where.  Its fine if clubs don't want to publish membership info, but in addition to many other reasons, it makes it difficult to have sympathy for struggling clubs.  I would feel the same about a single sex club.  I have no issue with it, but if the club is struggling, wouldn't it make sense to open the doors to other 50% of the population?  Again, its about making it easy to hook up potential members with potential clubs.  If for any reason a club is seen as standoffish and loses interest because of it, is it down to the customer or the club to change? 

I would also say keeping info strictly private puts a lot of power into the hands of office workers.  I don't know how many times I have contacted a club and felt the club's rep was less than friendly or helpful.  It can be a trivial matter which if happens often enough, can earn a club a poor public rep (in this age of rating sites such as Top100 - its amazing how many comments are about the club welcome) and thus lose even more interest in joining.  Sure, snobby culture about who gets in and who doesn't still lingers about in the US and that will be the case forever, but I think this attitude is becoming less prevalent in the age of transparency, or at least it isn't so obvious     

Ciao     

[Jud_T]

Sean,

Price is certainly important to virtually all of us.  I guess the question is are you looking to attract members for whom price is the most important variable.  Of course clubs who are struggling need to do whats in the club's best interest.  My point is 1) they are- many list pricing and 2) if they are struggling it's probably got little to nothing to do with whether or not they post prices.

[Ryan Coles]

I wouldn't be in favor of it because that would be implying that price is the best thing we have to offer and would attract members accordingly.  Golf clubs aren't a commodity.  It's not like searching for the cheapest gallon of milk in town.  If it is you're wasting a lot of time on the wrong website.

I disagree with this. I can find the list price on everything from milk, to a rolls royce to a private jet to a small island. It's only the petty minded who think it adds kudos to have things clouded in secrecy. Some Clubs wise up, some don't and the top 1% don't need to.

Costs are facts and do not enhance or reduce exclusivity in any way. The Club either wishes to receive applications for membership or it doesn't.

You're assuming that everyone equates value with price. Give people the facts, they will either see it as good value or they won't. It is terrible business to lose a potential member/visitor because he or she wrongly "assumes" that the cost is higher than it is.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Price is certainly important to virtually all of us.  I guess the question is are you looking to attract members for whom price is the most important variable.  Of course clubs who are struggling need to do whats in the club's best interest.  My point is 1) they are- many list pricing and 2) if they are struggling it's probably got little to nothing to do with whether or not they post prices.

Jud

I am guessing that for a significant percentage of first time private club shoppers, price is the most important element of the decision.  This is the market clubs need to exploit.  Whether or not publishing membership info will attract members is a question to which I don't know the answer. But, one big reason for a website is to attract members - no?  So, why not provide the most pertinent information for a signicant percentage of shoppers?  I can understand if a club doesn't want "walk ins" as prospective members because its ideal for members to find prospective members.  But much of the world operates in less than ideal conditions.  That said, its quite easy for events to overtake clubs who aren't thinking 5-10 years down the line.  I know if it were my club, I would want to know that steps are being taken to recruit new members regardless if they are needed at the moment. 

In any case, we can agree to disagree.  I was just speaking from experience and situation of not wanting to deal with plastic smiling suits where golf is concerned.   

Ciao

[BCowan]

I wouldn't be in favor of it because that would be implying that price is the best thing we have to offer and would attract members accordingly.  Golf clubs aren't a commodity.  It's not like searching for the cheapest gallon of milk in town.  If it is you're wasting a lot of time on the wrong website.

I disagree with this. I can find the list price on everything from milk, to a rolls royce to a private jet to a small island. It's only the petty minded who think it adds kudos to have things clouded in secrecy. Some Clubs wise up, some don't and the top 1% don't need to.

Costs are facts and do not enhance or reduce exclusivity in any way. The Club either wishes to receive applications for membership or it doesn't.

You're assuming that everyone equates value with price. Give people the facts, they will either see it as good value or they won't. It is terrible business to lose a potential member/visitor because he or she wrongly "assumes" that the cost is higher than it is.

Spot on Ryan!  Plus all the semi-private clubs i know are doing well and there are different semi-private models.  It is funny i know of a few Top top clubs that their annual fees are very very low.  So i guess you can have your cake and eat it too.

[Adam Warren]

Some of the comments here are precisely the reason some people, with the means to do so, do not want to join private clubs.  I would need to be paid to be around some of these attitudes.

Let me throw out a couple of real world thoughts here.  My area has one club that does not list their rates online.  They have a website where you can view information and read about the course.  It is in great condition, has a well-known designer, has a sizeable initiation and I honestly have no idea on the monthly prices.  There is a waiting list to get OUT and they can sell their memberships for whatever amount they like.  It is part owned by the membership and part by another entity.  I would wager any member there has the money to continue to stay a member there as long as they like, but they don't feel they get the value they would like. 

Another club, is the "old money" of my area.  If you are not a member you can only see the homepage.  It is an early 1900's design by a well known designer that has been modified a couple times I believe.  I have no idea of initiation or monthly fees. 

Another, down the street from the first, has all information online and is probably the only club in the area to have a waiting list to get IN.  If it were closer to my home it would be in consideration of a club I would join.

Another, closer to my home has most of their information online except for all pricing, is run by a golf club company, has a small initiation, is not full, and decent prices.  It is a generally unwalkable subdivision course so it does not really interest me.

I say this to say it is all about value.  The first is one you would think would have an initiation to get in, but the players arent getting the value.  The second probably has a similar price to the first, but nobody would ever know.  They are ultra exclusive and they may not even have minority members here in 2014.  The third is an active club that is probably the second or third membership of many of the first two.  The fourth is a good course, presents the illusion of exclusivity, yet actually has room for members based on conversations I have had.  The place I would like to join is the one with info online, although it is probably more expensive than the last and is actually, if pressed to join somewhere besides where I am, would be the place I had to join because of proximity and facilities.

Another club in town is very in tune with social media and up to date information on their website.  It's a decent course, in a subdivision but not crowded.  They actually are the most expensive of the two courses I spoke of I would consider.  They have a huge clubhouse with an excellent practice facility, tennis courts, two pools, etc.   They were on the verge of bankruptcy a decade ago.  They re-structured, built the best or second best online presence in the area, maintained an upscale profile, and are not full on membership, but have a good number.  Roughly half of their membership is under 50.  This model lets me believe there is something to the transparency and younger generation responding to them embracing the fact that they actually live in this century and not the previous one like so many others that are struggling. 

A lot of the people here that are pushing for info online, do hold memberships, and are in the generation that should be focused on by struggling clubs.  I think instead of the old guard pushing back on the customers they should be attempting to gain, they should shut up and listen so they have a place to play. 

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