[Lou_Duran]

Thanks for posting. That is very well organized despite some errors that you mention. The cart girl of the year is ..... interesting? 

The owner/publisher of AG deserves credit for being quite the golf entrepreneur without heavy capital investment in hard assets.  His strengths appear to be not in distinguishing the finest courses, but in catering to the preferences of the "retail golfer" in DFW.  The magazine might be better named the "Avid Bon-Vivant" as the coverage of upscale cars, drink, food, women, and other toys often associated with golf for the upwardly mobile male appears to be far superior than what is devoted to the actual golf course (this is no knock as the "avid golfer" is probably more interested in the clubhouse and the "amenities" than he is on the course itself).  Like SI's swim suit issue, Avid Golfer's annual cart girl issue is highly anticipated.

I have been following this thread closely as I can relate to the frustrations shared by the posters.  I am 36 and have taken advantage of junior membership deals at a couple clubs over the past 10 years.  I subsequently declined full membership when I reached the age where full membership was required.  I did my research and have found other options that will satisfy my golf needs.

While I really enjoyed the golf aspect at these clubs, the following "extras" are really just added barriers to playing golf and increase the cost of membership to levels that I can't justify.
......

I see that most clubs are trying to add services in order to attract more members.  I think the best model for many clubs is to reduce services and focus on core operations.  This would negate the need for more members and help to drive down costs for 90% of members who really just want to play golf. 

First of all, congratulations.

At the risk of delving into the forbidden subject of politics, in reading your post, I just couldn't help but thinking how what you note about golf memberships also describes my thoughts about the ACA and much of what our federal government does, supposedly on my behalf.  The crucial difference is that while I can opt out of a club whose policies aren't to my liking, if I do the same vis-à-vis my protectors in Washington, guys with guns will come after me.  I suppose it is unreasonable, certainly futile, to ask the Beast to take your advice and cut services.  And when membership is essentially free, no luck in curtailing the number of members.  Yes, I got my tax stuff in front of me and I am just procrastinating.  Don't mind me.   

[Jason Topp]

While I do not recommend asking a club about its finances . . . .

Assuming you are seriously interested in becoming a member, why not ask?  That's something I would recommend.

Now that I think about it you are probably correct, although I rarely find members well informed about the issue.

[Jason Topp]

One fundamental problem with club membership structure is the fact that people move much more often today than they did in the past.  If working my way up within my company were a primary goal of mine, I would probably never join a club because I would be much more likely to move within the next couple of years.  Because I know we are unlikely to move, I can join.

I would think clubs would want upwardly mobile professionals as members.  There has to be a membership structure that can accomodate someone that will live in town for a limited period of time.

[JMEvensky]

One fundamental problem with club membership structure is the fact that people move much more often today than they did in the past.  If working my way up within my company were a primary goal of mine, I would probably never join a club because I would be much more likely to move within the next couple of years.  Because I know we are unlikely to move, I can join.

I would think clubs would want upwardly mobile professionals as members.  There has to be a membership structure that can accomodate someone that will live in town for a limited period of time.

This is a huge,and currently unsolvable,problem in my part of the world.

[Lou_Duran]

One fundamental problem with club membership structure is the fact that people move much more often today than they did in the past.  If working my way up within my company were a primary goal of mine, I would probably never join a club because I would be much more likely to move within the next couple of years.  Because I know we are unlikely to move, I can join.

I would think clubs would want upwardly mobile professionals as members.  There has to be a membership structure that can accomodate someone that will live in town for a limited period of time.

That has been an issue for the past 50 years, and it was a consideration early in my career, albeit, in hindsight, not one deserving much merit.  Folks with some stretch in an organization who love golf can typically make room in their budgets, particularly if they're joining as junior members.  Assuming that they might return and are the type of members a club wishes to keep, they can probably go on non-resident or inactive status.  Club Corp. and other non-equity private, multi-club owners also provide the attractive option of being able to transfer the membership to a location of the new job.

Next to the condition of the economy and the risk of stable employment which in the past 20 years or so has affected white-collar workers as much as it always has their blue collar colleagues, I think that the time pressures on the groups who join clubs coupled with the availability of very good CCFADs at much lower prices might have something to do with the decline in the private club market.   I suspect that the number of members at private clubs who only play a handful of times each year has decreased considerably.  It takes a special person to not give a passing thought to the cost per round.  And if the a la carte alternative down the street is just as good and a great deal cheaper, why not?

[Tom_Doak]

Lou:

While the potential of moving out of town has always been a barrier for some to join private clubs, the difference now from 25-50 years ago is that there are more options available to someone who opts NOT to join a club -- better daily-fee courses, destination clubs for long weekends, and a much better selection of resort courses.  The old-school private clubs have made a mistake in not addressing this in their structure -- though of course, the best of them don't have to.

[John Kavanaugh]

One fundamental problem with club membership structure is the fact that people move much more often today than they did in the past.  If working my way up within my company were a primary goal of mine, I would probably never join a club because I would be much more likely to move within the next couple of years.  Because I know we are unlikely to move, I can join.

I would think clubs would want upwardly mobile professionals as members.  There has to be a membership structure that can accomodate someone that will live in town for a limited period of time.

This is exactly why you call the membership director.  Clubs are very flexible if you are a serious golfer who will become an asset to the club.

I'll never forget the 45 minute phone conversation I had with the membership director at St.Louis CC.  I was young and not familiar with true old money clubs.  He could not have been nicer and actually made me feel that I just might get in if I survived the eight year vetting process.  It would have been impossible to outline on an internet page.

[Mike Sweeney]

This is exactly why you call the membership director.  Clubs are very flexible if you are a serious golfer who will become an asset to the club.

I'll never forget the 45 minute phone conversation I had with the membership director at St.Louis CC.  I was young and not familiar with true old money clubs.  He could not have been nicer and actually made me feel that I just might get in if I survived the eight year vetting process.  It would have been impossible to outline on an internet page.

John,

You are referencing a conversation from 20+ years ago? I think that is an incorrect reference point, and to be candid I think you are stretching the truth. There was someone with the title of "Membership Director" at Saint Louis Country Club 20some years ago? Please clarify.

[Craig Van Egmond]

This is exactly why you call the membership director.  Clubs are very flexible if you are a serious golfer who will become an asset to the club.

I'll never forget the 45 minute phone conversation I had with the membership director at St.Louis CC.  I was young and not familiar with true old money clubs.  He could not have been nicer and actually made me feel that I just might get in if I survived the eight year vetting process.  It would have been impossible to outline on an internet page.

John,

You are referencing a conversation from 20+ years ago? I think that is an incorrect reference point, and to be candid I think you are stretching the truth. There was someone with the title of "Membership Director" at Saint Louis Country Club 20some years ago? Please clarify.

JakaB stretching the truth?  Say it isn't so!!! 

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,

I can respond later. On way to ride bikes with the wife.

[John Kavanaugh]

I had to stop at Sears to take a dump, so let me clarify. I called StLCC to join after 9/11/2001 because I was already a member of VN. If I were to guess I would say that I left my name and number and was called back by the director of the membership committee. I went on to join Norwood Hills instead. Even at Norwood I obtained a variance from their stated rules on the distance required to be a national member. I also was not required to introduce my wife to the women's committee when I told them that she didn't know all the clubs where I had memberships and I did not plan on telling her about this one. My point being, all this is impossible over the internet.

Back on the bike!!

[George Pazin]

When times are good, there are folks with excess $$$ who don't analyze the bottom line down to the last penny.

Times won't be good for most for a long long long long time. If you want to succeed with the model as is, you'd best be catering to one of the extremes.

[Russ Arbuthnot]

Fascinating thread!

Put me in the camp of guys in their 30's who have searched all the private clubs' websites around me to see how much it would be to join.

I just want to play golf. I love the game. I don't want to call anyone until I know it's within the realm of possibility of affording it. And if I do contact them, it's more likely to be through email, than by calling them. Looks like I'm not the only one.

I don't have a lot of extra time away from work and family to play, mostly very early in the morning. I work from home, so am not going to meet other members of clubs in the office, etc.

One of the main reasons I participate in golf forums is to meet new golfers to play with. Luckily, I don't have to play thousands of dollars to sign up and hundreds of dollars a month to do that!

[Adam Warren]

I do agree there needs to be some level of privacy, I mean it is a private course.  However, times are different now than they used to be.  You can find out financial information on almost any person or business on the internet.  We are in an age where we have access to whatever we want, whenever we want, from anywhere.  As a matter of fact, you can really get all of this info pretty easily.  If, as someone stated previously, a club price competes against another, they can do as little as send an email, make a call, or stop by that club and gather all of the financial information, or even have a friend do it for them so they can get it.  Since it is as easy as that, why not put the info out for all to see.

I think the best solution would be at the very least, to list your categories, and the monthly price of said membership, along with some type of description of the additional fees.  Leave the initiation out of it.  I think that is one of the bigger identifiers of the level and exclusivity of the place.  It also allows the club to decide on the fly how they would apply it, if they choose.  Most people making a decision based on the money associated with it know if they can afford $300, $400, $500 or $600 per month.  That number often times will tell what the initiation would likely be. 

The Louisville Business Journal recently released financial info on all the not-for-profit clubs in the area and how they had performed the last 4 years.  It was an interesting look at what is going on in the area, especially if you are aware of the clubs in our area.  I will have to find it again and link it here.

[BCowan]

I have been following this thread closely as I can relate to the frustrations shared by the posters.  I am 36 and have taken advantage of junior membership deals at a couple clubs over the past 10 years.  I subsequently declined full membership when I reached the age where full membership was required.  I did my research and have found other options that will satisfy my golf needs.

While I really enjoyed the golf aspect at these clubs, the following "extras" are really just added barriers to playing golf and increase the cost of membership to levels that I can't justify.

- Mandatory Caddies - While everyone enjoys having a caddy, the fact is that the going rate of $70-$80 in the northeast is not sustainable.  There might be value in paying that much for a caddy when you have never played the course, but after your 50th round, what can a caddy really add to the round other that carrying the bag?  This rate has also pushed out the high school kid in favor of the career caddy at most clubs.  Why is there such a stigma around carrying your own bag or pulling a cart?

- Club Tournaments - I've paid my dues and now I have to pay a fee to play on a Saturday morning because there is an ABCD best ball going on?  On top of that I'm not going to be able to play the back tees and I'm paired with partners who have no chance of breaking 100.  It seems like there are two of these weekend tournaments every month at most clubs. 

- Restaurant Minimums - I have no interest in eating dinner at a club.  I don't like subsidizing the restaurant for the 30 members who want the restaurant open 6 days a week.  The entire board of the club is usually found within this group of 30 members. 

- Climate - This is obviously geography related but we have a 7 month golf season at best in the northeast.  Paying full monthly dues when you have no use for the club November to March is a tough one to get your head around.

- Debt - Most clubs have it right now and it will be 10-20 years before its paid off.  Many boards have taken the "kick the can down the road" strategy to address necessary capital improvements.  Even worse, the debt is usually related to the clubhouse which I don't even want in the first place.  When you are my age and pay your initiation fee, you have assumed this debt. 

I see that most clubs are trying to add services in order to attract more members.  I think the best model for many clubs is to reduce services and focus on core operations.  This would negate the need for more members and help to drive down costs for 90% of members who really just want to play golf. 

Great post!!! 

[Dave Doxey]

One fundamental problem with club membership structure is the fact that people move much more often today than they did in the past.  If working my way up within my company were a primary goal of mine, I would probably never join a club because I would be much more likely to move within the next couple of years.  Because I know we are unlikely to move, I can join.

I would think clubs would want upwardly mobile professionals as members.  There has to be a membership structure that can accomodate someone that will live in town for a limited period of time.

Great observation, Jason!  Being a club member stopped for me after 30 years, when I moved for a 'short term' job.  For 10 years, I've been 18-24 months away from moving back to where I came from.  As a result I've never joined a private club here, not wanting to put up the initiation fee for a short period of membership.

I can't say that I have a solution.  A club needs people to commit, otherwise it's little more than a public course. Some 'membership exchange' that clubs could belong to and allow initiation fees to transfer among them might work, although the logistics of that would be difficult, as would getting it to critical mass.

One would think that the 'country club for a day' concept would do better for this type of player, but CCFADs seem to be little more than high priced publics.  What I miss from membership is having a group of guys that play together regularly and a closed population where one can always show up and know someone for a match.  If somehow non-private courses could foster that tight community of players, it would be a success.  I've seen the 'inner club' idea at some publics, but not often and usually limited to old farts. Unfortunately I'm approaching that classification .

For me, a private club has always been entirely about enjoying my fellow members and having a decent course.  I could care less about the rest of the amenities.

[Carl Johnson]

While I do not recommend asking a club about its finances . . . .

Assuming you are seriously interested in becoming a member, why not ask?  That's something I would recommend.

Now that I think about it you are probably correct, although I rarely find members well informed about the issue.

Then, I would suggest, going to the membership committee, GM, or someone who does know.  If that doesn't work, for whatever reason, this may be a club you should pass up.

[Jud_T]

I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.  Guess what- private clubs have heard of the internet.  They are free to post their fees on a website.  Some do.  This is generally a sign that the membership isn't full or close to it.  If a guy isn't willing to play a course with a couple members, really check out the course and the club, and get the real scoop on the place in the process, then perhaps they should sit home and look for Groupons for their local pitch and putt.  If you don't like all the stuff that comes with a full service country club, then join a golf club.  There are clubs out there for all demographics- families, hard-core sticks, folks who want tons of service and luxury and guys who prefer great golf and a cooler of beers and sandwiches.  And yes, finding the perfect club for you involves more than googling it in your jockeys.

[Mike Sweeney]

My point being, all this is impossible over the internet.

I had a friend compare the process of applying to private golf clubs as similar to applying to private colleges:

• The ROI rarely works - http://www.bestcolleges.com/features/best-roi-colleges/
• The membership committee and admission committee process is unclear/black box
• SAT's and handicaps are NOT really optional
• What you actually pay versus the other members/students is often similar to airline seating pricing, it varies
• Both golf courses and colleges hate ranking - http://www.reed.edu/apply/news_and_articles/college_rankings.html

Somehow, Harvard (private), Berkley (public), and Cornell (semi-private) all publish their pricing in the internet era, and then all seem to be doing okay.

Does it make sense for private clubs that are down 20-30% in their numbers to publish something like:

Financial Structure - In a perfect world, we could run our non-profit club with a small profit at 200 members @ $10,000 per year. However, we prefer to have a diverse membership in age, demographics and ethnicity. As a result, we look at each golfer on an individual basis, and we hope to achieve a membership of 275 - 325 golfers who love the game, our club, and appreciate their fellow members.

Before you take your shots, I remind all that few would have said that:

• Augusta National in Augusta, Georgia would become the most prestigious golf club in the world
• Sand Hills in the middle of Nebraska would become the #1 modern course in America
• A golf resort on the remote coast of Oregon would become (arguably) the number 1 resort in America

Thinking different in golf seems to work!

[John Kavanaugh]

We all have family, friends, employees and even employers who we would not like to know how much money we piss away on golf. Some of us even have internet stalkers. Pissing away money on a hobby does not compare to sacrificing for your child's education.

I'm really not interested in some jerk googling what I pay for golf. What I will pay next year at LSU, not so much.

[Mike Sweeney]

We all have family, friends, employees and even employers who we would not like to know how much money we piss away on golf. Some of us even have internet stalkers. Pissing away money on a hobby does not compare to sacrificing for your child's education.

I'm really not interested in some jerk googling what I pay for golf. What I will pay next year at LSU, not so much.

John,

Let's be honest, you are many things but terms like "average" "on the mean" or "typical" do not spring to mind.

If your wife does not know all the clubs you belong to, how would anyone else? Oh wait, you have a login at GCA.com, and you have no self-control!

[BCowan]

Mike,

    Great post.  I've noticed more Country clubs closing than Golf clubs.  I also notice not many Golf Club options, the ones that are, seem to be doing well.  It just would be to bad to lose a great gem of a golf course due to stubborn out dated outlooks.  It seems to be a lack of adjusting to reality.  The quasi-private golf course I play at posts their fees and has a 3-5 year waiting list, they must be doing something wrong....

[Jud_T]

Mike S,

Are you seriously suggesting that you don't have a pretty good idea of what the downstroke and dues are at most of the clubs in your neck of the woods just from experience and word of mouth?  If that's the case, and I'm willing to wager a fair amount that it is, then what's to be gained from public disclosure aside from some semblance of egalitarian mental masturbation? Cost is only one of many criteria when evaluating a potential club.  One generally has a pretty good idea what economic strata they are in in golf just as in society at large.  If you're new to town and have no clue, then it's probably in everyone's best interest for you to spend a season or two getting to know people and clubs in the area before getting out the excel spreadsheet and the Vaseline.

[John Kavanaugh]

We all have family, friends, employees and even employers who we would not like to know how much money we piss away on golf. Some of us even have internet stalkers. Pissing away money on a hobby does not compare to sacrificing for your child's education.

I'm really not interested in some jerk googling what I pay for golf. What I will pay next year at LSU, not so much.

John,

Let's be honest, you are many things but terms like "average" "on the mean" or "typical" do not spring to mind.

If your wife does not know all the clubs you belong to, how would anyone else? Oh wait, you have a login at GCA.com, and you have no self-control!

Exactly, and that's why they build public courses that subscribe to Golfnow.com. Go play!!!

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike S,

Are you seriously suggesting that you don't have a pretty good idea of what the downstroke and dues are at most of the clubs in your neck of the woods just from experience and word of mouth?  If that's the case, and I'm willing to wager a fair amount that it is, then what's to be gained from public disclosure aside from some semblance of egalitarian mental masturbation? Cost is only one of many criteria when evaluating a potential club.  One generally has a pretty good idea what economic stratus they are in in golf just as in society at large.  If you're new to town and have no clue, then it's probably in everyone's best interest for you to spend a season or two getting to know people and clubs in the area before getting out the excel spreadsheet and the Vaseline.

I know EXACTLY what the numbers are, but I think it is pretty clear that I have some issues, golf being one of them.  As I said earlier in the thread, "information is the cure".

I have an ability in life to separate myself from a conversation. I love golf, not as much as Pat Mucci or John Kavanaugh, and I would like to see more "Golf Clubs" come out of this recession. I am sure that John and Pat disagree with much of what I am saying. While I get a kick out of that because they are my friends, I am truly interested in the "Euro Model" for golf in this country.

I am headed to Maine for July 4th, which I chose over many other locations. Some small part of it is due to my appreciation for the Euro-style of golf in Maine. I have always loved Cape Arundel for its course, it's clubhouse with a few candy bars and Gatorades, and its membership with lobsterman in plaid shirts and jeans (now made popular by Brooklyn Hipsters) and former a President of the United States who plays golf in long sleeved Brooks Brothers button downs!

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