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BCowan

''That being said, I belong to a club that asks that you take your hat off before entering the clubhouse.  I don't see a problem with that and was always taught to take my hat off before entering any building.  The game has always expected a certain level of decency and  decorum, and I think that is fine.  How decent is an interesting question and there is certainly a happy place in between requiring all golf be played in long pants and allowing people to play in jeans.''   +1

''The younger generations were raised on tee ball and not keeping score.'' +1 ;D ;D

   I just think people on here tend to go to extremes.  Blazer to blue jeans, come on.  I have actually witnessed a top club allow jeans in their clubhouse area to try and bring in more revenue from the family aspect, very sad IMHO.  Can't people wear Khakis.  :)

   Many people have made valid points.  Besides it varying from region to region, it comes down to less purchasing power, more upscale public (that didn't exist 25 years ago to the same extent), college debt, less interest in CC life, and outdated model.  There are a lot a guys who's wives don't play and they both work, and he can't justify spending $5,000+ a year in dues to play 40 times a year.  They can go to Europe, buddies trips to Bandon ext., and travel sports for Jr.  Single memberships, smaller clubhouses, and a good value is what more people are looking for IMHO.  I do like when clubs are transparent on their website, but I respect their privacy since most don't like to post info.  I just can't stand talking to the membership rep/Secretary telling me all the platitudes of their course.


John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
^ if you had to wait for other runners/cyclists/hikers to get out of your way, you'd bitch too!  ;D

I live on a beautiful paved path that runs along the river.  The damn thing is so full with dog walkers and children that I had to buy a truck to transport my cycles to an urban environment that is less crowded with people looking for a healthy alternative.  To either hike or cycle in pristine environments without human intrusion the costs equal golf.  Your friends are not serious about either to save money.

I also agree with Thomas that golf is best suited for the old.  Get out and run and jump till you can't run and jump no more.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
One of the great joys in life is to have friends that cover the spectrum of all aspects of life.  One great way to keep that from happening is to leave the price tag on your toys.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
I also agree with Thomas that golf is best suited for the old.  Get out and run and jump till you can't run and jump no more.

I shot a few baskets the other day while waiting for a session with a personal trainer.  I attempted a jump shot.  My feet did not leave the floor and my shot got half way to the basket.  I am headed back to the golf course. 

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0

That is a good call.  $50,000 in student loan debt is roughly equal to $500/mo for 20+ years.



JC,

I agree with you point about cost being the number 1 issue but your math on student loans is wrong by about $150/month...unless you've got the worst loan in history.

I'd put available time (not pace of play) as the number 2 issue. Hard to start January 1 spending $10,000 (reasonable all in here in the Philly area) on golf and a couple months swimming and tennis is tough. Even a generous/wishful look at the ROI is difficult. If I knew I'd have the time to play 50 rounds the ROI looks fine but hoping to get in 20 is different.


Regarding the posting of membership rates at a private club; the whole point is to be invited to join by a member so shopping for a club like it's Amazon isn't really the right flow of information.

Keith Grande

  • Karma: +0/-0
One of the great joys in life is to have friends that cover the spectrum of all aspects of life.  One great way to keep that from happening is to leave the price tag on your toys.

Back in the day, I had a friend who wouldn't take the plastic covering off his nerf football...

Many "private" courses could market themselves alot better if there was more transparency.  Alot of times, you "hear" about special deals to join, so and so course is having a centennial deal, information is hard to come by, and unless you know someone at the club, it's not the easiest thing to determine.  Go to their website, and it's bare bones information.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0

Regarding the posting of membership rates at a private club; the whole point is to be invited to join by a member so shopping for a club like it's Amazon isn't really the right flow of information.

Sully:

I'm guessing in many communities these days, it's not so much that folks are shopping ala Amazon for clubs -- it's that clubs are pretty keen on selling like Amazon. ;D As Sweeney suggests (I have no inside information, but my hunch is that he's right), a few top-tier clubs are doing fine and not worried about memberships. But I'd bet two-thirds to three-quarters of golf-centric clubs in any given community want (and need) membership. The Madison WI area has five major private golf-centric clubs, and I'm pretty sure I could join four of them with little trouble and a general inquiry. I might -- maybe -- need an invitation to the fifth one.

Paul OConnor

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Alot of times, you "hear" about special deals to join, so and so course is having a centennial deal, information is hard to come by, and unless you know someone at the club, it's not the easiest thing to determine.  Go to their website, and it's bare bones information."

The rates and specials aren't published because they are not available to everyone.  The Club needs to be able to screen applicants, this is not the local health club, where anyone can join.  It doesn't take more than a handful of jagoff Members to ruin an otherwise good club.  And just because you have the money doesn't mean the rest of the Members want you to join them.  It's exclusive, which means the club retains the right to exclude YOU.  

How hard is it to pick up the phone and have a conversation with the Membership Director?  Their job is to sell memberships, for fuck's sakes, is is impossible for someone under 35 to have an actual human interaction, pick up the phone and call.  


Kevin_D

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Alot of times, you "hear" about special deals to join, so and so course is having a centennial deal, information is hard to come by, and unless you know someone at the club, it's not the easiest thing to determine.  Go to their website, and it's bare bones information."

The rates and specials aren't published because they are not available to everyone.  The Club needs to be able to screen applicants, this is not the local health club, where anyone can join.  It doesn't take more than a handful of jagoff Members to ruin an otherwise good club.  And just because you have the money doesn't mean the rest of the Members want you to join them.  It's exclusive, which means the club retains the right to exclude YOU.  

How hard is it to pick up the phone and have a conversation with the Membership Director?  Their job is to sell memberships, for fuck's sakes, is is impossible for someone under 35 to have an actual human interaction, pick up the phone and call.  



Perfect!  :)

BCowan

''Regarding the posting of membership rates at a private club; the whole point is to be invited to join by a member so shopping for a club like it's Amazon isn't really the right flow of information.''

   I don't think a club that is 60-70% full is going to be selective.  But that wouldn't shock me.  Amazon is doing very well i hear.

''How hard is it to pick up the phone and have a conversation with the Membership Director?  Their job is to sell memberships, for fuck's sakes, is is impossible for someone under 35 to have an actual human interaction, pick up the phone and call. ''

   It is very hard to listen to someone tell me about the club that doesn't play golf and the tired old platitudes.  Human interaction with people who actually listens to the consumer, now that is a breath of fresh air.  We aren't talking about the business model of top 50 golf courses who are mostly immune to hurting private model.   

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
How hard is it to pick up the phone and have a conversation with the Membership Director?  Their job is to sell memberships, for fuck's sakes, is is impossible for someone under 35 to have an actual human interaction, pick up the phone and call.  

Can't we text? Or hit them up on Twitter? Phone calls are so 1876.

I don't think anyone is saying clubs should be forced to post rates online or anything ridiculous like that. I do think if a club is struggling and looking for members, it's a whole lot easier to attract them with transparency. That's especially true if they want younger members. Some clubs may not want a lot of younger guys to join, and that's their prerogative. Whatever gets the bills paid. A membership shortage will ruin a club much faster than those "few jagoff applicants" you mention. Can you name one club that went under because three jagoffs applied for membership? Or are you just citing the same excuses that every member tends to cite when their club is operating in the red but can't muster the courage to change anything about how they've always operated?

Ben, you make a good point about platitudes. Every golf course website I visit sounds like it was written by the same 13 year old. It's always something like "Our lush, pristine, manicured golf course winds up and down hills and through trees with beautiful white sand bunkers and fast, undulating greens. Our beauty and challenge make Slobbersuck Hills a favorite to every member and guest." It's amazing to me that there doesn't appear to be a club in a metro area within 200 miles of me that has figured out a way to break the mold and market itself differently and offer a substantially different and more interesting product, particularly for younger people and families.

Actually, I take that back. There is one club in Lexington that just came up with what appears to me to be an exceptional package. Their geographic location isn't the best, but I suspect they could be very successful in spite of that.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Dave Doxey

  • Karma: +0/-0
If someone is relocating to an area that has a dozen private clubs, it's disappointing to have to waste 2 or 3 days playing phone tag with membership directors.  How hard it it to add a simple price chart to the club web site?  I've had cases where a membership director called me every few months with a lower initiation fee "deal" each time.  What does that say?

As for membership directors screening out A-holes, I can say from experience that it doesn't work.  Having been a member of a few clubs, I interestingly found that the more "exclusive" the club, the higher the A-hole ratio!

It's the age of easy access to information and competition.  Have a good product at a fair price and stop hiding behind secrecy.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
A difficult problem caused in large measure by oversupply in many metropolitan areas.  Our club is in one such area.  Here is a variation which appears to be working although one can never tell when one is completely out of the woods.  We are a full service family oriented club with a wonderful old Colt & Alison course and a very nice but relatively modest sized clubhouse.  Like many clubs, our membership has aged and during the downturn we fell below an optimum size.  We took the following steps.  To respond to competition we reduced initiation fees.  I attended a seminar where the consultant recommended raising initiation fees but we went the other way.  We made some improvements in our facilities in response to requests of mostly younger members.  But most importantly, we went to the membership and urged it to become much more active in introducing new members, particularly those below the age of 50, to our club.  We thought that the facilities and members would sell if people were exposed.  Over the last 3 or 4 years , even allowing for the usual attrition, we have increased our membership by more than 10% and we are very pleased with the quality of our new members.  There are no "special deals",prospective members, who must be introduced by 2 existing members, get a fact sheet showing the classes of membership, where they fall and what it will cost.  We are now in an acceptable range and hope to add another 7-10% over the next few years.  Like all clubs there are issues for the long term.  We took on some debt to make the improvements which will be paid by the members in the relatively near term. Like Pat, I hate taking on debt. Capital items wear out; in the future we will need to replace our irrigation system (long term) and our equipment shed (somewnat sooner).  But we are budgeting for those items now and getting a buy in from the members.  A lot of this depends on the atmosphere of a club, if the young and old interact and there is respect for the desires of the various groups, you have a chance.  We try to remind the older members (like me) that we were young once and wanted to make the club work for our families so we should understand the motivation of our younger group.  We try to tell the young folk that before they know it they will be in our position and they want to be able to enjoy the club then.  Of course, not everyone buys in, any group of 200 or more people contains some who don't get it.  But if the leadership works to foster camaraderie and understanding a club can thrive because the members have more in common than most would believe.  Its just a question of making them understand their common interests.  If done right, it can be a lot of fun.  I have friends who I play with at the club who are about 20 years older than me and several who are at least 20 years younger.  Until you understand that aspect of club life, you really can't evaluate the pluses and minuses.  If it is just a dollars and sense proposition, a private club rarely makes sense.  Of course it helps if you have a really good golf course in a desirable location.

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
   I don't think a club that is 60-70% full is going to be selective.  But that wouldn't shock me. 

Groucho Marx: "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member."  Sorry if this has been posted on this thread earlier.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
It's the age of easy access to information and competition.  Have a good product at a fair price and stop hiding behind secrecy.

It is a matter of perspective as well as geography.  We have 8-10 private clubs in the DFW area that are doing very well with wait lists and joining fees at or above historic highs.  For many folks, finances are very personal, something not discussed in public and only occasionally in close relationships.  Those clubs seeking new blood get the word out via their membership.  If someone has the qualifications- demeanor, financial, reputational- it is not a problem learning this information.  We also have some publications like Avid Golfer which publishes this information every so often, however, it is often wrong.

I think JC is right.  It is mostly a matter of economics.  We are blessed in Texas that most of our major cities are doing very well and there are a large number of people making sufficient money to afford the private club lifestyle.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Guys,

If the prices are posted online and anyone with a paypal account can join with a mouse click, what exactly is private about the private club?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

BCowan

J,

   Come on.  Paypal, that was a good one.  Posted prices are transparent and helps people avoid agonizing phone conversations.  I am sure people are going to equate those people with non loyal members and that is fine.  Transparency screams public golfer!!!???

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0

I think JC is right.  It is mostly a matter of economics.

Lou, I'm going to frame this.

Most of the privates in Charlotte seem to be doing well.  In fact, the publics seem to be in the most pain.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
 8)  Discussed openly... NO

seems like due diligence, making a sincere effort to check out a club, talk to folks, play it, think on it ... is now to be replaced with online dude diligence???





Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
It sounds like there are at least some cities where one could do well being a broker of memberships.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Can't wait for Augusta, Cypress and Seminole to post their initiation and dues structure on their websites.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Can't wait for Augusta, Cypress and Seminole to post their initiation and dues structure on their websites.

Step 1 for those courses will be to create websites.

Mike Sweeney

Someone mention that this is not like joining a health club. From a historical perspective, I see this period as similar to the era of "City Athletic Clubs".

Social Stratification In New York
City Athletic Clubs, 1865-1915
by: J. Willis and R. Wettan
Queens College

http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/JSH/JSH1976/JSH0301/jsh0301e.pdf

Almost all of them are gone now with the exception of the NYAC and have been replaced the NY Sports Club, Chelsea Piers, Equinox and similar for-profit health clubs with multiple locations and flexible memberships.

Lou Duran,

How accurate is this list for Dallas?

http://golfersbag.com/private-golf-course-directory.php

Keith Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
A few points:

1. agree these are 'private clubs' and the idea of posting entry fees and dues in the public domain seems counter to the ideal - 10 years ago few clubs even had a membership director, so there was no one to call...you had to really 'know' a member or three to understand the realities...anyone unwilling to pick up the phone to speak to a market-oriented membership director doesn't really care enough to join...these are private 'clubs' after all, not private 'courses'
2. the costs at most clubs are remarkably close on an all-in basis (and also remarkably high) - you either can or cannot afford to be a member of a private club - there is generally no way to justify membership on a cost per round basis - those that 'can' afford membership should focus on the softer aspects of membership...do they like the course, do they like the membership, is there a caddie program, are there starting times etc.
3.  dress code - anyone who finds it a challenge to remove their cap when walking into the clubhouse really shouldn't be concerned about joining a private club; if you can't deal with that inconvenience there are many other issues that will turn you off!  and yes, can't people put on khakis?

Patrick_Mucci


If someone is relocating to an area that has a dozen private clubs, it's disappointing to have to waste 2 or 3 days playing phone tag with membership directors. 

One would hope that the process of joining a private club isn't limited to forwarding a check to the lowest bidder


How hard it it to add a simple price chart to the club web site.

Depends on how stupid the club is.

Why provide your pricing model to your competitors such that they can "shadow price" you ?


I've had cases where a membership director called me every few months with a lower initiation fee "deal" each time.  What does that say?
It says that they're in financial trouble and desperate for members


As for membership directors screening out A-holes, I can say from experience that it doesn't work. 

If all you had to do was write a check to gain admission that wouldn't surprise me


Having been a member of a few clubs, I interestingly found that the more "exclusive" the club, the higher the A-hole ratio!

I've found just the opposite.
The more thorough the vetting process the stronger the membership.
What clubs are you referencing ?


It's the age of easy access to information and competition. 
Have a good product at a fair price and stop hiding behind secrecy.

For whom ?
People who walk in from off the street whose only requirement for membership is writing a check ?

I'm pretty sure that ANGC, Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Seminole and others all have tried and true admissions policies that produce the desired membership results.

Joining a private golf club isn't like shopping in a discount super market.