Should the private golf club business model be discussed openly on GCA.com?

[Bill Seitz]

The Club needs to be able to screen applicants, this is not the local health club, where anyone can join.  It doesn't take more than a handful of jagoff Members to ruin an otherwise good club.

I don't know about that.  I belong to a club with Jud and JC, and I still think the club is pretty good. 

[Sean_A]

Clubs in financial straits should do what they must to attract members.  I know I want to avoid talking to a Membership Director as much for not wanting them to have my contact details as anything.  As a matter of fact, I would wonder why in the hell a club would waste money on a membership director  .   Can't the club manager do this as part of his/her duty.  Most of the time, I bet its taking calls about the, you guessed it, pricing structure  .  Surely, once a potential member has his foot in the office door there is a pleasant handover to members and they sell the club by being good, genuine guys.  If a club is lucky, they will have a pro who can be instrumental in the process, but for gods sake, keep the suits out of it, that sort of extra layer would bug the hell out of me.  And if the club is well known, it sells itself. 

I understand if a club is ticking along fine, no need to go fishing.  I also understand that its best if future members are located by current members.  Which begs the question, why do so many cubs then charge a stupidly high guest fee?  For someone to become well acquainted with the club before joining, it may cost a small fortune. 

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Out of interest, do private clubs in the US - and anywhere else for that matter - allow new members to spread payment of joining/initiation fees over a few years or does payment have to be made as a one-off lump sum upfront payment?

In the UK in recent years spreading payments appears to have become a more regular option for newbie members at private clubs.

atb

[Jud_T]

Thomas,

Depends on the club, but I believe it has become more common here as well as the market has become more competitive.

[Mike Sweeney]

For those speaking about the traditions of the private club, I offer this conclusion section from the report on city athletic clubs:

http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/JSH/JSH1976/JSH0301/jsh0301e.pdf


From 1880 to 1893 the leading clubs of the city underwent a
drastic change in focus. Competition among clubs for status
and prestige led to the building of extravagant facilities, an
increase in activities of a social nature, and the instituting of
highly selective membership policies. The most prestigious
athletic club of the period based upon members’ occupational
scores and social club memberships was the University A.C.
followed by the Manhattan and New York A.C.’s.

The period of transition which occurred between 1893 and
1900 was marked by the financial collapse of many of the leading
clubs and the consolidation of others. The financial difficulties
experienced by most clubs was due to the combination of
poor management, overextension of financial resources and
economic recession.

After the turn of the century there was a resurgence of small
athletic clubs which were unencumbered by grandiose clubhouses
and social preoccupations. Once again clubs were readily accessible
to a larger segment of New York society through the
organization of neighborhood, occupational, religious, social
welfare agency, public school, and park department athletic
associations. This era can best be characterized by the vast
number of clubs, the transitory nature of many of the clubs, and
the unprecedented involvement of athletes from socio-economic
levels to whom athletic competition had been beyond reach.

____________________________________________________

Is the pending purchase of Torresdale Frankfort by The Union League the start of a new trend?

I was surprised to see a golf resort, Seaview, purchased by a college but perhaps it is a trend towards different ownership models in golf:

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/09/stockton_college_purchases_sea.html

[Keith Grande]

How are private clubs looking to fill their membership ranks?  Relying on word of mouth from their members?  Surely there are other methods?

So there are at least 20 private courses within a 10 mile radius from where I live.  I probably know a member of about 5 of them.  So there's an in for a handful, what about the other 15 or so courses in the area?  Looking for me to call them?  And if I don't happen to know anyone there, no deal? 

[Dave Doxey]

We can't generalize across the spectrum of private clubs.

Clearly, clubs that are doing well financially and have a waiting list to join can do as they please, make whatever rules they want, and keep the membership a secret. No argument there.

Clubs that need members to sustain themselves need to adapt to survive.  Make membership fees & process more transparent.  Lighten up on rules to attract younger members & families.  It's an evolutionary process, as the environment changes, it's adapt or become extinct.  These are the clubs that I'm talking about.  From what I read, clubs in this category are in the majority these days.

No one expects to fill out an on-line application for Augusta National.  It's not unreasonable to expect to be able to see membership process any pricing information online for the “average” private club.

On the positive side, time and the economy will sort this all out.

[Lou_Duran]

How are private clubs looking to fill their membership ranks?  Relying on word of mouth from their members?  Surely there are other methods?

So there are at least 20 private courses within a 10 mile radius from where I live.  I probably know a member of about 5 of them.  So there's an in for a handful, what about the other 15 or so courses in the area?  Looking for me to call them?  And if I don't happen to know anyone there, no deal? 

I knew no one when I moved to DFW zillions of years ago.  It took but a few months to get the lay of the land and garner invitations from new acquaintances and work colleagues to join a number of clubs.  Colonial CC in Fort Worth near my office was one, and for just a little more than a no-name/bad course club near our home.  My wife, working in Dallas and wanting to play tennis, lobbied for the other club with the lame excuse that she would never drive to Fort Worth after work, so we joined the lesser club.  It was a decision I have always regretted, but to this day, location remains the most important factor driving many of our decisions.  There is not a club in the DFW area where a call to the Membership Director would not get you the necessary information to begin the process of evaluating a potential match.  In most cases, there is at least general information available publicly for self pre-qualification prior to making that call.

Mike Sweeney,

The linked information is not accurate.  In a number of cases, even the names of the clubs have changed.  Couldn't easily find the date, but the data seems very old.  Here is a more current one that also contains numerous errors.

http://www.avidgolferonline.com/issues/2014/1404agdfw/cover-story-best-of-private-clubs-2014.aspx

[Keith Grande]

Lou, you're missing my point.  It's not about me finding a club to join.  How are clubs in the area who are looking for members getting access to me?  Hoping I know a member?  Hoping I call them out of the blue?  What should the 15 other clubs in the area be doing to get my business?

[JESII]

Keith,

They should have their members looking for you. If the membership isn't working hard to "sell" the benefits and value of the club how can they expect to survive?



Phil McDade,

Of course you're correct...every club wants to "sell like Amazon". It's pretty clearly an over supply issue don't you think? Eliminate one of those clubs in Madison and the whole entry process changes, right?


Dave Doxey,

There has certainly been a trend in the direction you're talking about but the real question is how is that good for anyone? If you were to pay a $5,000 initiation fee and $5,000 a year for a few years and felt invested in and connected to the "club", would you want someone to simply see the price and write a check with no invitation or screening process?

[Will MacEwen]

I was looking at a well known club recently.  Well regarded, great pedigree.  I would think they are concerned about finding the next generation of members, people my age (43) and younger.

This is a club that anyone here would be happy to play or join.  The club has initiation fees, membership categories and dues posted online.  I don't perceive this degree of transparency as lowering the image of the club; there was no paypal tab, and you still need sponsors.  

I think that invoking Cypress, Seminole and Augusta is kind of a silly comparison to make.  Local, non top 100 clubs that model themselves on the elite are likely choosing a perilous path.

[Lou_Duran]

Lou, you're missing my point.  It's not about me finding a club to join.  How are clubs in the area who are looking for members getting access to me?  Hoping I know a member?  Hoping I call them out of the blue?  What should the 15 other clubs in the area be doing to get my business?

Sorry.  I am not an expert in finding members for private clubs, but that shouldn't stop me from opining, right? 

The link I provided is from a free glossy magazine available at nearly all public and private courses in north Texas.  This one and others contain offerings from a number of facilities.  The local paper carries occasional ads as well and publishes a "Texas Golf Annual" issue (this year on May 11) which attempts to rate the top courses throughout the state with some segmentation for the different market categories (e.g. on the public side- high, medium, low-priced).  Courses can and do market in this edition as well.  Marketing or membership directors apparently have access to targeted lists of potential members (I get emails occasionally).  Many of the "needy" courses have generous incentive programs for their current members to sponsor new members.  "Guest Day" specials are common and a good way to introduce like-minded folks to the club.  I suspect that member referral is the most effective marketing tool.  Couponing, primarily during the week, working with hotels, corporate and charity outings, and other similar marketing endeavors serve to give exposure to the course.

IMO, once they get you there, much of this goes for naught unless the course is properly maintained and the set up is thoughtful every day.  Add to that staff and members who are helpful without being over-the-top, friendly, and welcoming.  Getting the little details right is important in promoting a desirable experience.  I had a guest one time who was just moving his lunch special around the plate.  I finally asked him if he wasn't feeling well and, with some embarrassment, he confessed that the fish was not cooked in the inside.  In fact, it was still frozen, the cook probably harried or distracted in the kitchen making a lasting impression even though my friend had a decent day on the course.     

[Dave Doxey]

Dave Doxey,

There has certainly been a trend in the direction you're talking about but the real question is how is that good for anyone? If you were to pay a $5,000 initiation fee and $5,000 a year for a few years and felt invested in and connected to the "club", would you want someone to simply see the price and write a check with no invitation or screening process?

Of course not.  I'm not suggesting on-line joining - just posting of membership costs and requirements to allow prospective members to decide which club they want to apply to.  As was mentioned here a couple of times, moving to a new area now requires a long information gathering process.

Once a prospective member narrows down choices (location? costs? openings?) the application, course visit process, etc. would proceed.

[Carl Nichols]

I can't speak for other cities, but I feel like I have a pretty good handle on the private clubs in Montgomery County, MD, at least those in the Bethesda/Potomac/Rockville area--e.g., Congressional, Chevy Chase, Columbia, Bethesda, Woodmont/Lakewood.  None of those clubs posts online the costs of membership (i.e., initiation fees, monthly dues, other expenses).  But it is incredibly easy to get that information by either asking a member or contacting the club, especially if (but not only if) you are slightly serious about possibly joining.  

That's the story on the costs of membership.  Detailed financial information about the clubs (debt, operating expenses, revenue, CapX, etc.) is a different matter.  First off, a lot of prospective members don't even ask for this information--nor do many members (even though it's available to them).  For those who ask, my sense is that only those people who are perceived to be reasonably serious about applying will see that stuff.  But even this information is hardly a state secret--it's the stuff of constant grill room gossiping.  

[Phil McDade]

Phil McDade,

Of course you're correct...every club wants to "sell like Amazon". It's pretty clearly an over supply issue don't you think? Eliminate one of those clubs in Madison and the whole entry process changes, right?

Maybe -- but maybe not. All markets for this kind of product (private country club membership) are unique, and not static. And I'd guess in most communities (some, of course, more than others) the private golf clubs exist in a market that's offering varying degrees of the same thing -- broadly speaking.

Since I moved to Madison 25 years ago, there has been one private club added to the roster of the four well-established clubs in town. The big growth has been in daily-fee courses -- nine 18-hole courses built in that time (one is a 36-hole operation -- 18 on the main course, a 9-hole youth/senior/executive course, and a 9-hole down the road a bit), plus another well-established 18-hole course adding a full-scale 9 holes. They range from cheap and not very good to pretty good, with the UW's University Ridge the most prominent of those. That was on top of the Madison muni golf system, which offers 72 holes at four courses conveniently located around town, and a few other modest courses around the area.

On top of that, Wisconsin has seen a boom in high-end courses, well-known here on GCA and in the golf world -- Kohler's quartet near Sheboygan, Erin Hills, Nicklaus' Bull near Sheboygan, a few others.

My guess is lots of folks (I know a few, actually)  -- looking at the golf landscape here -- just say: "Forget it; I don't need the private club model, and its bothersome dining minimums and boring dinners/lunches; I can just get a discounted rate membership at URidge, join my buddies for some charity outings at some local courses for variety, and make a special trip or two every year to Kohler/Erin Hills/Sand Valley ." It might even be cheaper.

In short, if one of the privates in Madison were to suddenly close, I'm not sure all of those folks would flock to the other four and tighten the market. And I think the privates get that, as much of their marketing of late (at least from what I can tell) has been aimed at family-like activities (swimming, tennis, co-op memberships with fitness and dining clubs, strong junior programs) that aim to keep the lone-wolf golfer like Sweeney tied to the club.

Interestingly, to switch gears here, the old-money club in town -- the Maple Bluff Country Club -- has scads of information on membership available for anyone to peruse on their website. I was actually pretty impressed when I looked it up today:

https://www.maplebluffcc.com/Club-Info/Membership-(1)/Invitations.aspx

[Patrick_Mucci]

Carl,

I'd agree with you.

Nobody, desiring to be a member, asks to see the books.

The only question I might ask, if I didn't already know the answer is:  How much debt is the club carrying and under what terms ?

The great majority of those joining clubs aren't transients, they're familiar with the community and the golfing environment in the area.

Those moving into the community are usually introduced or find out about the lay of the land prior to moving.
Some moves are voluntary, some are transfers/offers that can't be refused, so each circumstance is different.

[JESII]

Phil,

Clearly Maple Bluff is struggling and the evolution of other options is likely a primary culprit.

That said, the numbers they're showing are $9,000 per year (plus food minimum). Let's assume the other 4 average $7,000. If they're open then they have at least a couple hundred people paying it even though they have the same access to local courses you described above. I've heard 350 per 18 holes is a reasonable number for full membership.

While I agree that each situation is unique, a significant number of the members of whichever of those five clubs closes first are going to join one of the others...making them all healthier...and likely eliminating the need for Maple Bluff to give away $0 dues for several months as a lure.

[Jason Topp]

While I do not recommend asking a club about its finances I do recommend checking out the 990's filed for tax purposes by all clubs that are nonprofits (i.e. a sizeable percentage).  While the information is usually from the prior year, it does provide more accurate information than the members are likely to have and allows you to compare the revenue from the prior year to that from earlier filings.  You also can see the long term debt the club is carrying.

http://foundationcenter.org/findfunders/990finder/

I have found it educational to compare the filings of clubs I know are fine with those I know are struggling.

[Keith Grande]

I've enjoyed reading Making The Masters, especially the stories about attempts to recruit new members.  Clifford Roberts sent out invitatiions to anyone he could get his hands on.  Using Grantland Rice to extoll the virtues of his club, and Bobby Jones.   I liked the response he received from a prospective member, who would sign up under the stipulation that 99 others would join as well.  That quota wasn't made.

[BCowan]

I can't speak for other cities, but I feel like I have a pretty good handle on the private clubs in Montgomery County, MD, at least those in the Bethesda/Potomac/Rockville area--e.g., Congressional, Chevy Chase, Columbia, Bethesda, Woodmont/Lakewood.  None of those clubs posts online the costs of membership (i.e., initiation fees, monthly dues, other expenses).  But it is incredibly easy to get that information by either asking a member or contacting the club, especially if (but not only if) you are slightly serious about possibly joining.  

That's the story on the costs of membership.  Detailed financial information about the clubs (debt, operating expenses, revenue, CapX, etc.) is a different matter.  First off, a lot of prospective members don't even ask for this information--nor do many members (even though it's available to them).  For those who ask, my sense is that only those people who are perceived to be reasonably serious about applying will see that stuff.  But even this information is hardly a state secret--it's the stuff of constant grill room gossiping.  

Carl,

DC is hardly a place to use to compare with the rest of the US. 

Dave D. and Will, 

   I agree with you

[BCowan]

Phil,

Clearly Maple Bluff is struggling and the evolution of other options is likely a primary culprit.

That said, the numbers they're showing are $9,000 per year (plus food minimum). Let's assume the other 4 average $7,000. If they're open then they have at least a couple hundred people paying it even though they have the same access to local courses you described above. I've heard 350 per 18 holes is a reasonable number for full membership.

While I agree that each situation is unique, a significant number of the members of whichever of those five clubs closes first are going to join one of the others...making them all healthier...and likely eliminating the need for Maple Bluff to give away $0 dues for several months as a lure.

  So closing down a nice golf club is a good thing?  A club that has been around for 80+ years is oversupply?  Or just inability to adjust to market trends?  Seems as though following a model that Mike suggests might do it good.  You have many people that would join private golf clubs, but hate CC's.  But people just don't seem to get that.  

[Carl Johnson]

While I do not recommend asking a club about its finances . . . .

Assuming you are seriously interested in becoming a member, why not ask?  That's something I would recommend.

[Mike Sweeney]

The linked information is not accurate.  In a number of cases, even the names of the clubs have changed.  Couldn't easily find the date, but the data seems very old.  Here is a more current one that also contains numerous errors.

http://www.avidgolferonline.com/issues/2014/1404agdfw/cover-story-best-of-private-clubs-2014.aspx

Thanks for posting. That is very well organized despite some errors that you mention. The cart girl of the year is ..... interesting? 

[Greg Stebbins]

I have been following this thread closely as I can relate to the frustrations shared by the posters.  I am 36 and have taken advantage of junior membership deals at a couple clubs over the past 10 years.  I subsequently declined full membership when I reached the age where full membership was required.  I did my research and have found other options that will satisfy my golf needs.

While I really enjoyed the golf aspect at these clubs, the following "extras" are really just added barriers to playing golf and increase the cost of membership to levels that I can't justify.

- Mandatory Caddies - While everyone enjoys having a caddy, the fact is that the going rate of $70-$80 in the northeast is not sustainable.  There might be value in paying that much for a caddy when you have never played the course, but after your 50th round, what can a caddy really add to the round other that carrying the bag?  This rate has also pushed out the high school kid in favor of the career caddy at most clubs.  Why is there such a stigma around carrying your own bag or pulling a cart?

- Club Tournaments - I've paid my dues and now I have to pay a fee to play on a Saturday morning because there is an ABCD best ball going on?  On top of that I'm not going to be able to play the back tees and I'm paired with partners who have no chance of breaking 100.  It seems like there are two of these weekend tournaments every month at most clubs. 

- Restaurant Minimums - I have no interest in eating dinner at a club.  I don't like subsidizing the restaurant for the 30 members who want the restaurant open 6 days a week.  The entire board of the club is usually found within this group of 30 members. 

- Climate - This is obviously geography related but we have a 7 month golf season at best in the northeast.  Paying full monthly dues when you have no use for the club November to March is a tough one to get your head around.

- Debt - Most clubs have it right now and it will be 10-20 years before its paid off.  Many boards have taken the "kick the can down the road" strategy to address necessary capital improvements.  Even worse, the debt is usually related to the clubhouse which I don't even want in the first place.  When you are my age and pay your initiation fee, you have assumed this debt. 

I see that most clubs are trying to add services in order to attract more members.  I think the best model for many clubs is to reduce services and focus on core operations.  This would negate the need for more members and help to drive down costs for 90% of members who really just want to play golf. 

[Carl Nichols]

I can't speak for other cities, but I feel like I have a pretty good handle on the private clubs in Montgomery County, MD, at least those in the Bethesda/Potomac/Rockville area--e.g., Congressional, Chevy Chase, Columbia, Bethesda, Woodmont/Lakewood.  None of those clubs posts online the costs of membership (i.e., initiation fees, monthly dues, other expenses).  But it is incredibly easy to get that information by either asking a member or contacting the club, especially if (but not only if) you are slightly serious about possibly joining.  

That's the story on the costs of membership.  Detailed financial information about the clubs (debt, operating expenses, revenue, CapX, etc.) is a different matter.  First off, a lot of prospective members don't even ask for this information--nor do many members (even though it's available to them).  For those who ask, my sense is that only those people who are perceived to be reasonably serious about applying will see that stuff.  But even this information is hardly a state secret--it's the stuff of constant grill room gossiping.  

Carl,

DC is hardly a place to use to compare with the rest of the US. 
Dave D. and Will, 

   I agree with you

I'm not sure what you mean.  Are you saying it's harder to get information about the costs of membership in other places?  Or that it's easier to get detailed financial information in others?