[Grant Saunders]

Green to tee walks get a lot of mileage on this discussion board.

Most of it centres around the belief/notion that these walks should be as short as possible. Often cited is the impact this has on the flow or pace of a course and its routing. Many believe that walks longer than a handful of metres/yards are to be avoided at all costs and numerous courses are judged in a negative fashion due to what is perceived to be walks to the next tee that have been made longer than ideal.

For me, I dont personally see the problem with having to at times walk a reasonable distance (lets call it up to 200 metres) if it means that the following hole benefits accordingly as a result. Im certainly not advocating it happens on every hole on the course but I dont see why the occasional occurrence seems to be met with such disdain.

I possibly even take the view that longer walks could or should be in fact employed as an aspect of the flow of a golf experience.

For example, a long walk approaching a hole can help build anticipation or trepidation depending on what is about to be played.

Alternatively, a long walk can allow a golfer to decompress after a particularly tough hole or stretch of holes. It can also allow for reflection on the hole just played or take in a vista that would otherwise have been missed.

Do any of the architects on here ever use deliberately longer walks in this manner?

[Tim_Weiman]

Grant,

Sand Ridge Golf Club in Chardon, OH provides example of good and bad long walks.

The 10th tee is about 350 yards and I would have to call it bad. Nothing positive about it. The club resorted to carting people to compensate and keep play moving along on busy days.

The 11th green to 12th tee is more than 200 yards. The 15th green to 16th tee is about 150 yard. Both walks, in my view, considerably add to the pleasure of playing the course. The first is of the "anticipation" variety. The second is kind of a "decompress".

I'm old fashioned and prefer short walks, but it is all site and hole specific with good and bad examples, sometimes on the same course.

[Tom_Doak]

Grant:

I have had some long transitions on my courses that I thought were great.  The walk back to the 16th tee at Cape Kidnappers is pretty awesome; and maybe the best of them is the path from the 4th green to the 5th tee at Barnbougle, along the tops of the dunes overlooking the beach.  But I would not have included that walk if the 5th hole had offered a good tee position closer to #4 ... I was just making the best of the situation.

Stanley Thompson's Cape Breton Highlands is famous for having a 400-yard walk along the river from the 12th hole to the 13th, but in that case, too, the terrain was pretty severe to have tried anything else.

[Brian Chapin]

I generally like courses with short walks from green to tee, but I also enjoy the occasional disconnect if it traverses interesting terrain.  I guess in some cases it can really add to the "walk in the park" aspect of the experience...  I'm thinking Friars Head from 14 to 15 and then especially 15 to 16.  

Cypress Point has two of the most famous Par 3's in a row that each have over a 100 yd walk from the previous green to the tee... i guess that has to be the best example of a long walk building anticipation.

But its hard for me to determine what might have been/could have been when I think about routings.... probably because I've never done one myself. SFGC is one of my favorites and it has a long walk (150 yds) from 5 green to 6 tee.  Would the 6th have been worse off if the tee was as closer to 5 green?

[Jim Hoak]

To me long walks from greens to the next tee is my biggest complaint with much of modern architecture.  But I do think it is a matter of how often that happens in a round--once or twice is not a big deal.  Also, I do recognize that often modern courses have been created as a part of a business plan to sell housing sites, but then long walks just become part-in-parcel with all the other mistakes that are made just to sell lots--tricked up greens, excessive numbers of tees, over-the-top drink stands, prizing beauty over strategy, trees, flowers and waterfalls, etc. 

[Tim_Weiman]

Grant:

I have had some long transitions on my courses that I thought were great.  The walk back to the 16th tee at Cape Kidnappers is pretty awesome; and maybe the best of them is the path from the 4th green to the 5th tee at Barnbougle, along the tops of the dunes overlooking the beach.  But I would not have included that walk if the 5th hole had offered a good tee position closer to #4 ... I was just making the best of the situation.

Stanley Thompson's Cape Breton Highlands is famous for having a 400-yard walk along the river from the 12th hole to the 13th, but in that case, too, the terrain was pretty severe to have tried anything else.

Tom,

Actually, that Barnbougle walk is the wallpaper on my iPad. Really pleasant scene.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

Actually, that Barnbougle walk is the wallpaper on my iPad. Really pleasant scene.

Nobody has ever accused me of "cheating" on that one. 

I am also fond of the walk from 11 green to 12 tee at Pacific Dunes, but I've been flamed for it being "too long" once or twice.  Maybe I shouldn't have put the 11th green so close to the ocean?

[David_Elvins]

Actually, that Barnbougle walk is the wallpaper on my iPad. Really pleasant scene.

It is a pretty amazing feature.  Interestingly, if you are not afraid of snakes and don't like views, the walk from 4th green to 5th tee is about 30 yards. Adding 100 yards to the walk took some good imagination and thought.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom,

Actually, that Barnbougle walk is the wallpaper on my iPad. Really pleasant scene.

Nobody has ever accused me of "cheating" on that one. 

I am also fond of the walk from 11 green to 12 tee at Pacific Dunes, but I've been flamed for it being "too long" once or twice.  Maybe I shouldn't have put the 11th green so close to the ocean?

Tom,

Yeah. If people were being more honest with you, they would tell you the site for the 11th sucks.

[Tim_Weiman]

Actually, that Barnbougle walk is the wallpaper on my iPad. Really pleasant scene.

It is a pretty amazing feature.  Interestingly, if you are not afraid of snakes and don't like views, the walk from 4th green to 5th tee is about 30 yards. Adding 100 yards to the walk took some good imagination and thought.

David,

Not interested in the snakes. An old BP colleague of mine once played a golf course somewhere in Africa that had Black Mambas running around and he came upon one right near the club house. Scared to death he froze and then slowly turned around, walked away and lived to tell the story.

No thanks. I'll enjoy the walk.

[Carl Johnson]

. . .

I'm old fashioned and prefer short walks, but it is all site and hole specific with good and bad examples, sometimes on the same course.

Ditto . . . well put. All in, I prefer short walks.  But they can't be forced.  A little longer walk may make for a better "next hole."  And it's about the holes, not the walks, in my opinion.  That having been said, there is no comparison between "walkable" courses with varying walks green to tee, and courses that are physically walkable, but not practically so for a "game" of golf.  If a course cannot be built on a piece of ground with walks of, say, twenty yards or so (or less, preferably), mostly, green to tee, then I'd say it's not the best site for a course.

[Chris Johnston]

For me, it depends on the next hole. 

If it's something really good and fun, I'll walk (or crawl) through broken glass.

If it isn't, I'd prefer teeing from the middle of green I just played.   

[Jim_Coleman]

  Best walk in golf  -  the approximately 200 yards from the 14th green to 15th tee at Teeth of the Dog -  past Oscar de LaRenta's house, around a corner filled with bamboo and flowering plants, to the edge of the Caribbean with a tee perched into and over the sea.

[Norbert P]

 The walk from Reg's Hut (4 to 5) at Barnbougle is, and will be my reflex answer as best walk in golf.  One solo round there I spied a brown snake slithering across the path and thought to myself, gee, Dad would love to be here.  So I cast some of his ashes to overlook Bass Strait.



"Don't concern yourself with which snakes are poisonous in Australia.  They're all poisonous."  Bill Bryson from "In A Sunburnt Country"

[Bill_McBride]

At Wolf Point you can tee off from the back of the green for the next hole.   Or not.  That's pretty cool. 

The green to tee walks at Mid Pines are really short.  There were a couple of spots where I thought they were actually dangerously close to the previous green!

[Ben Malach]

I agree with the majority on this thread on a couple of worth wile long walks in a round are not terrible and some times can make the golf course significantly better. But where I will disagree as I have a lot of experience with walking mountain golf courses. If the fact that some times architects use these long walks as a routing cop out. Instead of using the broken land to create an interesting golf hole. I personally think that the creation of a walking friendly golf course is better than creating a cart only golf course which forces the player into the unnatural environment of the golf cart. Removing them from interacting fully with the environment which is one of the best parts of the game of golf. 

[Sean_A]

Great views for me are a dime a dozen; I need a great hole for the interruption of a long walk.  Otherwise, where does that philosophy takes us?  I'll tell ya, in a cart or at Trump Aberdeen.  Of course, there are always exceptions, but jeepers, its playing with fire if you ask me.

Ciao

[Mark Bourgeois]

I like this topic; here are my thoughts from a while back:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31764.0.html

[Ally Mcintosh]

I'd would not expect to ever design a long green to tee walk deliberately.

[Forrest Richardson]

One of the best ever is 14 to 15 at Cypress.

[Tom_Doak]

One of the best ever is 14 to 15 at Cypress.

15 to 16 is a bit of a hike, as well ... but a pretty one.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ally,  really?  I am more in the Brian Chapin camp.  Or, because of budgets and sites, at least found myself with the decision of longer walk vs. more natural golf hole more times than I can count.  While conscious of the benefits of short green to tee walks, I favored the better golf hole in most cases.  And, before anyone says I probably could have routed better, I believe I know how to route, these choices are, as TD says, very site specific.  I have several holes where I accept a longer walk to get a better golf hole....I have never lost sleep over those decisions.  I have one whopper ride on a course near Ft. Worth, but the housing was in between, and that area was a big dome, generally unsuitable for golf, so that was the choice I made.

Obviously, in every routing, you end up trying to narrow down the choices over time.  At some point, you commit to certain holes and have a few problem areas to work out.  Sometimes, your choices are made after commitment, such as 4 to 5 at the Quarry at Giant's Ridge, where the original (and tee adjacent) 4th green site was found to be a peat bog.  So, it happens sometimes.

Over the years here, I sense different definitions of "green to tee walks."  First is the lament that the next tee isn't right off the previous green, as often seen on older courses.  Reasons are more multiple tees, inclusion of cart path, generally bigger tees and greens, and a better understanding of safety zones.  Instead of 10-20 paces to the next tee, few now would make it less than 30-40 paces, even if behind the green where balls seldom travel.  I will say that the influence here has been for me to generally shorten that distance more than I did before, especially, as noted, when the next tee is behind the green.  I was probably too fearful of the lawyers.

Others lament the between houses walks in residential areas.  I have always tried to get direct road crossings, without winding through between lots, but some developers insist on it, at least in some cases. 

Then lastly, are the whoppers as I described above.  My other long one is at Giant's Ridge Legends, where they simply didn't have the property for a golf course without acquiring a remote tract.  They would have gotten the adjacent track, but it belongs to the US Forest Service as a natural area, and they would have taken a 10 year process to sell the land, if they sold it at all.

Short version - sometimes a longer walk is both necessary and/or even desirable to get better golf holes. You can lament walking distance, but US average cart use is over 65% and probably rising, so in some ways, it is a natural design response.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Jeff - It was a quick response to show that I would never route in a long walk for any reason other than if it was the lesser of two evils.

In other words, if I decided the next hole (or knock-on routing) was worth it or if it affected budget not to route that walk, then of course I might consider it. But I'd never do it for a breather or for some perceived increase in anticipation or because the walk takes you down to a lake side etc...

Generally, I'd compromise an excellent hole for a more coherent whole. As you know with that statement, it's all a matter of degrees and judgement though...

[Adam Clayman]

Grant, It's quality over quantity, here. So, your premise is off when you state shortest is best. Walking through a subdivision to the next tee, no matter how short, is just a horrible experience. Yet, walking along a city street, ala Eastmoreland, is really cool because of what's there once you get there. Efficient, seems like the best description, one could hope to design in green2T walks.

[Bill_McBride]

One of the best ever is 14 to 15 at Cypress.

15 to 16 is a bit of a hike, as well ... but a pretty one.

Not to mention the sense of anticipation and high anxiety about what's ahead!

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