[Bryan Izatt]

I've played the Blue 7 times now (and the Red the same number) and I like the Blue course better mainly because the course is less threatening off the tees and more entertaining on the greens.  But, the greens are difficult.  If you are put off by 3 (or more) putt greens you will be disappointed.  Last year I thought I was a good putter, and these greens are not a whole lot more complicated or undulating than my home course.  After 5 rounds at the PF I'm not so sure anymore.

After 7 rounds I no longer think that I only need to play a few more rounds to get the greens - they are mostly that complicated.

A caddie helps but even they misread putts.

The speed and wind and grain can make distance control very difficult.  There is a substantial challenge if you happen to get a downhill, down wind and down grain putt (from the front of 11 to back right with an east wind)

There are some spots (front left of 12 to back right pin over the knob) where the window on the line might be a couple of inches wide.  I missed left a little and ended up 20 feet left.  I tried a little bit right and ended up 10 feet right. Lag putts that get away can run off by great distances.

Some pin positions have been goofy on days I've played there - the aforementioned one on 11 on a slope back right where the ball would not stop.  This is a setup issue - not a design issue.

Getting reasonably close with an approach shot is very very difficult to some pin positions on some greens - the front pin on the 13th comes to mind.

The front left pin is difficult to impossible on the 7th if you get above or to the right of the pin.  Putting off the green is apparently common there.  In my last match there my opponent was in the water off the tee while I played (bladed) safely to the back bunker.  He followed me there with his 3rd.  He blasted out first and rolled across the green and down the front slope.  He conceded at that point even though I was in the bunker.  I was planning to play left to use a backstop at the front f the green.  Since he had picked up, I was encouraged to try to go at the flag.  I hit a darn good bunker shot that rolled past the pin and off the green.  I don't think it would be possible to hold the front part of the green from the back bunker.  I doubt that a putt could be kept on the green.  I suppose that the green speed was just too great for that contour.

Did I really say I found the greens entertaining?   

But they are.  Certainly much more enjoyable in match play than medal.

I sure hope they don't dumb them down. Or, slow them down too much. Maybe next time I will figure them out. 

[Jim Franklin]

The green that my boy hates the most is #7 Blue. He said for a 200 yard shot, that green is way too severe. Granted, I have only played it twice, but a routine two putt par and an up and down par didn't seem too challenging. I know the guys I played with struggled with that hole, but I thought the green was fine. Anyone else think this green is too severe for its length?

The back left is more severe than it was meant to be.  The original green site was quite tilted and we kept working on making it more level -- I think we had to go back twice to re-shape it while it was still in the dirt.  At the end, I thought it was okay, but it's very tough at the speeds I've played it.  The back-left hole location is nasty at high green speeds; all the other hole locations seem fine.

Thank you for the explanation. Makes sense to me.

[Mike Policano]

Ah, the greens on the Blue. They seemed easy to Will. Noel and I played with Mike Nuzzo and his buddy Will in Jan 2013. Will was playing the Blue for the first time. I checked with Noel and he confirmed it. Will had 7 birdies in his first round on the Blue. No caddie, no pin sheet, couple of missed opportunities.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Streamsong 6

By "solvable" I just mean: standing on the green, can you look back to the fairway or even to the tee and work out a *shot* or shots that, if you execute, will give you a reasonable expectation of a rational outcome, one correlating to your skill level? Not birdie and for whatever your talent level and the conditions of the day, maybe not even par. Just the "proper" outcome for executing shots using the correct strategy, for playing the hole as it was meant to be played by someone with your skill.

Not every putt has to be makeable. And sometimes a 2-putt should be a real accomplishment.

I felt playing left off the tee, even if I executed well, still gave me a second shot that was probably beyond my meager abilities, just in the sense of having the confidence I could hit the proper section of the green. My skill didn't seem good enough to overcome a random outcome. There didn't seem to be a lot of reward for placing my tee shot in the very best spot. Next time I play the hole I think I will just take a wedge, aim for whatever passes as the middle of the green and hope for the best. Ignore the hole, the slopes, and par. Don't create any decisions or choices because for me at least they're probably not there.

I wish the slope right of the green wasn’t bunkered and I wish the big mound short of the green provided a little more “help,” both for those having a go from the tee and for those trying to get the ball on the green with their second. I don’t think attempting the green from the tee is anything other than a death wish. I can't see the slopes giving most golfers the kind of help they would need. I thought maybe with a full measure of a slope over to the right I could hit my second into it and maybe have a better chance of ending up in the correct section. With the bunkering I didn't want to take that chance.

So it seemed most golfers would need just one strategy: left off the tee, wedge into green. And play in the air, not on the ground. The contours in the green, the overall slope of the green, the ground contours short of the green, the crap left of the green and the bunkering right of the green: I don’t think I want to knockdown, pitch, run, putt or do any of those things where the ball spends any more time interacting with the ground than it absolutely has to.

The risk-reward suggested by the short length of the hole, the high slope to the right that seems like something you’re supposed to use, the mound short of the green: all of these elements are “suggestio falsi,” fool’s gold. I resolve not to fall for this stuff the next time and if I'm playing for a score just play to beat a 6.

Don't mean to pick on the 6th, and again: these were just my impressions not cold, hard facts. I don't think that green was out of pattern from the others on the course. I walked of 18 with an unsettled feeling. The cumulative effect of those greens...got to me. I was pretty tired from all the decisions. Maybe it was just the conditions of the day. The ground was very firm. (The greens speeds didn't bother me...too much.)

That's me then. What was I missing?

[Peter Pallotta]

Bryan, Mark - terrific posts, touching on both the specifics at Streamsong and greens/putting in general.  

I was watching a documentary on Jack's 86 Masters win. They interviewed all the principles/participants, including Jack. Discussing his birdie putt on the 17th, all the talking heads weighed in about how well JN knew those greens and how many putts he'd made over the decades etc; his son Jackie says "I read it to go left, but dad said 'No, Rae's Creek is going to influence it'"  -- and then after showing him make the putt, it cuts to Jack and he kind of shakes his head with a grateful smile (as if to acknowledge that the gods were with him that day) and says: "I've hit that same putt a hundred times since then, but I can never get it to break towards Rae's Creek again".

Interesting greens - golf's great equalizers. The game's most magical-mysterious element, in that it tests not primarily our golfing skills but our golfing souls, i.e. our ability to accept the vagaries of fate, the deceptive hand of man, and the double-faced qualities of nature.

Peter

PS - My golfing soul is often found wanting.

[Bill_McBride]

Ah, the greens on the Blue. They seemed easy to Will. Noel and I played with Mike Nuzzo and his buddy Will in Jan 2013. Will was playing the Blue for the first time. I checked with Noel and he confirmed it. Will had 7 birdies in his first round on the Blue. No caddie, no pin sheet, couple of missed opportunities.

"Shooter" Will? 

[Tom_Doak]

I felt playing left off the tee, even if I executed well, still gave me a second shot that was probably beyond my meager abilities, just in the sense of having the confidence I could hit the proper section of the green. My skill didn't seem good enough to overcome a random outcome. There didn't seem to be a lot of reward for placing my tee shot in the very best spot. Next time I play the hole I think I will just take a wedge, aim for whatever passes as the middle of the green and hope for the best. Ignore the hole, the slopes, and par. Don't create any decisions or choices because for me at least they're probably not there.

I wish the slope right of the green wasn’t bunkered and I wish the big mound short of the green provided a little more “help,” both for those having a go from the tee and for those trying to get the ball on the green with their second. I don’t think attempting the green from the tee is anything other than a death wish. I can't see the slopes giving most golfers the kind of help they would need. I thought maybe with a full measure of a slope over to the right I could hit my second into it and maybe have a better chance of ending up in the correct section. With the bunkering I didn't want to take that chance.

Mark:

The green on #6 was the first green ever designed by one of my younger associates.  [Well, actually the second, but his other one was on a course that never opened.]  I thought he did a great job with it and we changed very little.

The mound short of the green left [if that's the one you wanted more "help" from] was actually added by me to make left-hand pins more deceptive and make it a bit harder to drive the green. 

You've identified correctly that the best play for most people is left off the tee.  I don't know why you said "There didn't seem to be a reward for placing my tee shot in the very best spot," because there certainly is; approaching from the left is the only way you've got a good chance of keeping an approach on the right-hand upper shelf of the green, or getting at a pin that's in the trough underneath it.  However the further left you are, the more the green is sloping straight away from you and it's harder to hold an approach shot.  The only time the angle is better from the right is if you can get very close to the green, or if the hole is on the far left side away from the tier in the green, but approaches are less likely to go over and out the back from that side.

I have actually driven the green twice from the more forward tees, playing with a couple of older gents who were seeing the course for the first time, and almost made two the last time.  So, I suspect from the back tees it's reachable for Tour pro caliber players, even though I have to go left from there, and if I don't hit far enough it will be hard to get a second shot close.  It's a huge green [it might be the biggest on the course] and if the hole is on the lower half of the green it shouldn't be hard at all to make 4, but pins on the right half are challenging for anybody.

[Mark Saltzman]

I felt playing left off the tee, even if I executed well, still gave me a second shot that was probably beyond my meager abilities, just in the sense of having the confidence I could hit the proper section of the green. My skill didn't seem good enough to overcome a random outcome. There didn't seem to be a lot of reward for placing my tee shot in the very best spot. Next time I play the hole I think I will just take a wedge, aim for whatever passes as the middle of the green and hope for the best. Ignore the hole, the slopes, and par. Don't create any decisions or choices because for me at least they're probably not there.

I wish the slope right of the green wasn’t bunkered and I wish the big mound short of the green provided a little more “help,” both for those having a go from the tee and for those trying to get the ball on the green with their second. I don’t think attempting the green from the tee is anything other than a death wish. I can't see the slopes giving most golfers the kind of help they would need. I thought maybe with a full measure of a slope over to the right I could hit my second into it and maybe have a better chance of ending up in the correct section. With the bunkering I didn't want to take that chance.

Mark:

The green on #6 was the first green ever designed by one of my younger associates.  [Well, actually the second, but his other one was on a course that never opened.]  I thought he did a great job with it and we changed very little.

The mound short of the green left [if that's the one you wanted more "help" from] was actually added by me to make left-hand pins more deceptive and make it a bit harder to drive the green. 

You've identified correctly that the best play for most people is left off the tee.  I don't know why you said "There didn't seem to be a reward for placing my tee shot in the very best spot," because there certainly is; approaching from the left is the only way you've got a good chance of keeping an approach on the right-hand upper shelf of the green, or getting at a pin that's in the trough underneath it.  However the further left you are, the more the green is sloping straight away from you and it's harder to hold an approach shot.  The only time the angle is better from the right is if you can get very close to the green, or if the hole is on the far left side away from the tier in the green, but approaches are less likely to go over and out the back from that side.

I have actually driven the green twice from the more forward tees, playing with a couple of older gents who were seeing the course for the first time, and almost made two the last time.  So, I suspect from the back tees it's reachable for Tour pro caliber players, even though I have to go left from there, and if I don't hit far enough it will be hard to get a second shot close.  It's a huge green [it might be the biggest on the course] and if the hole is on the lower half of the green it shouldn't be hard at all to make 4, but pins on the right half are challenging for anybody.

Why is it easier to play to the upper/right tier from the left? I would have thought that shot is far easier from the right.

I loved that green.  What I didn't like was the fact that you have no idea where the pin is until you reach the driving zone.  Pin location would impact decision making from the tee, if you knew where the pin was located.

[Tom_Doak]

I loved that green.  What I didn't like was the fact that you have no idea where the pin is until you reach the driving zone.  Pin location would impact decision making from the tee, if you knew where the pin was located.

Well, you do walk right past it (twice!) going up to the 1st tee, and coming back.  You could maybe make a mental note then.

[Mark Saltzman]

I loved that green.  What I didn't like was the fact that you have no idea where the pin is until you reach the driving zone.  Pin location would impact decision making from the tee, if you knew where the pin was located.

Well, you do walk right past it (twice!) going up to the 1st tee, and coming back.  You could maybe make a mental note then.

Uhh, yeah, fair enough. Something to remember for next time!

[Mac Plumart]

I loved that green.  What I didn't like was the fact that you have no idea where the pin is until you reach the driving zone.  Pin location would impact decision making from the tee, if you knew where the pin was located.

Well, you do walk right past it (twice!) going up to the 1st tee, and coming back.  You could maybe make a mental note then.

Uhh, yeah, fair enough. Something to remember for next time!

 

[Steve Salmen]

I shot 81 in December of 2009 at Pacific Dunes.  Not remarkable.  However, I hit 17 greens and had 45 putts.  I had zero 1 putt greens and 9 three putts.  It was a perfect storm of hitting poor irons shots to the wrong side of greens, greens in very poor condition, but by far the most significant was my poor putting stroke.  Combine these factors and the number of putts can skyrocket quickly.

I shot 82 a couple weeks ago at Streamsong Blue.  I hit 13 greens and had 41 putts.  I cannot blame the green conditions.  It was a combination of large, undulating greens with internal contours that are hard to read and a mainly a poor, rusty, putting stroke.  After multiple plays, I'm quite sure I would improve my score.  I wish Streamsong would offer pin placement sheets.

I shot 80-80 at Ballyneal with a caddy.  I don't think I had more than 2 three putts for the day.

A putter of my caliber is not going to gush:  I love Doak courses!!! (after one or two rounds).  They do not bring out the best in my game.  My game was far more manageable at the Red course because I am a better ball striker than putter.  Of course, after multiple tries, all courses get more manageable.

I don't consider myself a poor putter, just not a very good one.  Sometimes I putt like a good putter.  Streamsong Blue placed an unusually high premium on putting, to me.  Perhaps I would have shaved 5 strokes off my score had I taken a caddy, one who specifically knew where the flags were and where on the green not to miss.  Funny, I felt far more comfortable with a wedge from 90 ft than a putter but that is not a surprise to anyone who read my putting stats.

I think over time and multiple rounds I could grow to love the Blue.  I just felt the punishment was so severe for being a little bit off.  Right of the hole on #3, short on #17, short of the back hole on #13 and #11 putting downhill and down grain.  There was a good discussion on #6 which I deservedly 3 putted not because of bad putts, but because of a hooked drive to the front left hole location.  I should have bumped a shot up to the front right and hoped for a 20-30 ft putt.  Instead I wedged to the front and watched it roll a hundred ft past the hole.  It was not a bad shot either.  I think you have to come in from the right to that hole location.  I never want to have to hit that shot again.

In conclusion: IMO, Tom is influenced by the Old Course and the size of the greens.  When decent players miss greens, they frequently get up and down.  Large greens really test ball striking and putting.  You miss wrong, sometimes you're lucky to three putt.  If you hit into a normal green side bunker, decent players leave themselves 5-10 ft all day.  Long lag putting with a lot of movement and speed changes are not things I'm really familiar with.  This is an area I think a lot of other players are put to the test also.  I could be wrong, but I think Tom's primary objective is to have no three putts during his round.

[Jason Topp]

When i was there in January the greens on the Blue were brutally difficult on a cold dry day and very reasonable with just a spit of rain on a humid day. I assumed it was tough to slow them down too much at that time of year because the grass does not grow much, if at all in the heart of winter.

[Bryan Izatt]

Re #6, I haven't really found a way to play it properly in multiple plays.  Maybe next time with Tom's guidance I will figure it out.

Standing on the tee my feeling is always that I should just rip it trying to get to the green, although it is most probably out of my range. This has always led to mediocre drives - some left, some right and some in the bunkers. 

Approaching the green either to a right pin or left always does me in.  Generally I try to hit a low shot to land it short and have it release onto the green - a useful links shot.  The land short looks to slope down, but my shots never seem to release.  The grass there seems more sticky to me.  The only (relatively) good results I've had are somewhat thin shots that have run through to the back fringe.  At least you have an uphiller coming back.

I guess there is no reason that a short par 4 should be an automatic par - even with a very generous driving area.

One wonders how one and done golf tourists are supposed to figure out these subtleties of strategy.  It must lead to some frustration in many of the clients.

[BCrosby]

" I could be wrong, but I think Tom's primary objective is to have no three putts during his round."

I'd think that is upside down. Tom can and will speak for himself, but I'd think he is challenging you to make smart shot choices; three putting is a price paid (there might be others) for either a bad choice or bad execution or both.

I have played SSR only once. I want to play it again. As I walked off the 18th that day (I three-jacked it) it struck me that the course had been asking me a lot of questions that I didn't even see as questions. I would like to go back for a retest.

Bob 

[Tom_Doak]

" I could be wrong, but I think Tom's primary objective is to have no three putts during his round."

I'd think that is upside down. Tom can and will speak for himself, but I'd think he is challenging you to make smart shot choices; three putting is a price paid (there might be others) for either a bad choice or bad execution or both.

I have played SSR only once. I want to play it again. As I walked off the 18th that day (I three-jacked it) it struck me that the course had been asking me a lot of questions that I didn't even see as questions. I would like to go back for a retest.

Bob 

Bob:

I think Steve might be referring to something I said years ago about playing Lost Dunes ... that every time I played there, my focus was on trying not to three-putt any green.  I would try to keep the ball in play off the tee, and let that goal govern my strategy for second shots.  That meant not leaving myself in the dead-wrong part of the green -- I'd rather miss in the short grass short or to one side, instead of just aiming for the middle.  And it is a very effective strategy at Lost Dunes, I've played well below my handicap there over the years.  It would probably work well at Streamsong, too, you've just got to know the greens very well, which most people don't yet.

Steve is right, too, that The Old Course is a big influence on Streamsong.  For some reason I was thinking about St. Andrews a lot in the early days of construction there ... I can't remember if The Open was last there just as we were starting to build the course, or whether it was just that I'd been back there recently, but a green like the 2nd on the Blue is the result of thinking about the width of the double greens in St. Andrews.

One thing I am starting to think from this thread is that I wish everyone would play my course after the Red.  I suspect some of the difficulty with the greens is that on both courses at Streamsong they are faster than any greens the visitors have played for weeks, and people are struggling to adjust to the speed.  That, on top of the contour, makes for a difficult day.  Whichever course you play first is going to bear the brunt of that; the next day it won't seem quite so hard.

[William_G]

The green that my boy hates the most is #7 Blue. He said for a 200 yard shot, that green is way too severe. Granted, I have only played it twice, but a routine two putt par and an up and down par didn't seem too challenging. I know the guys I played with struggled with that hole, but I thought the green was fine. Anyone else think this green is too severe for its length?

The hazard by the bridge to the left is in play while putting to the left front location, at least when I was there a year ago

I love crazy greens, and it's always fun to have Augusta-like putts

The greens on the Blue were in better condition than the Red FWIW, as they were planted earlier and I think at a better time I think.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tom,

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. Let me think on it a bit.

Regarding your last post, it is funny you mention TOC as its green contours have been the EXACT "reference" I've noodled on in thinking about Streamsong. The way I had been thinking about it was, why did I find TOC's delightful yet felt critical of Streamsong's? Was it because, to paraphrase Mackenzie, no one knew what the hell they were doing on TOC whereas Streamsong was built with more than a century's additional knowledge and by one of the game's most-traveled and accomplished designers? And if that's the reason for the difference responses is that reasonable, or is it hypocritical?

There could be something to that line of thinking but there's also the issue of the differential in green speeds between TOC and Streamsong. I am familiar with putting on fast greens -- the speeds proper were not upsetting to me -- but the combination of green speed and those contours: how many people in the world have the opportunity to even practice that combination, never mind play it with regularity? Now, maybe that's "fair" as there are analogues, such as lonnng putts on TOC and chipping from off #2's greens. Few including me have the opportunity to practice those, either. For some reason I find those "fun." I don't know why I would have found those experiences fun whereas Streamsong's, well, definitely to a degree fun, but with a stronger mix of frustration. Streamsong's is a recent experience whereas TOC and #2 are older: maybe I am "devolving" somehow.

It seems the combination of contour and green speeds are about getting the balance between skill and caprice right. The great majority of putts is a combination of both, right? Very short putts are all skill whereas some, due to length, contour, speed, etc, can be pure caprice. If a certain number of putts, on a green and / or across a round, become "caprice heavy," then by devaluing skill and elevating luck, then doesn't "learned helplessness" take over, and is that a good thing?

[Ivan Lipko]

Jim, may I ask you how good of a golfer your golfing friends are (the ones you were talking about)?

[Jim Franklin]

Jim, may I ask you how good of a golfer your golfing friends are (the ones you were talking about)?

The two most recent to comment on the greens on the Blue have handicaps of +2 and 0. Both are bombers. The 0 three putted 5 times for par. That apparently really chaffed his backside. I think it is funny.

[George Pazin]

Jim, may I ask you how good of a golfer your golfing friends are (the ones you were talking about)?

The two most recent to comment on the greens on the Blue have handicaps of +2 and 0. Both are bombers. The 0 three putted 5 times for par. That apparently really chaffed his backside. I think it is funny.

I'd be curious to know if his 3 putts were the result of the greens in general, or more of what Tom was saying, being in the wrong places.

Too often, golfers assume that wide fairways and big greens mean you can hit it anywhere - this is not true if the greens are well thought out, in my limited experience.

[Garland Bayley]

Jim, may I ask you how good of a golfer your golfing friends are (the ones you were talking about)?

The two most recent to comment on the greens on the Blue have handicaps of +2 and 0. Both are bombers. The 0 three putted 5 times for par. That apparently really chaffed his backside. I think it is funny.

I'd be curious to know if his 3 putts were the result of the greens in general, or more of what Tom was saying, being in the wrong places.

Too often, golfers assume that wide fairways and big greens mean you can hit it anywhere - this is not true if the greens are well thought out, in my limited experience.

He's hitting par 5s in two from long distances, and then three putting. It seems very logical to me that he probably was in the wrong places.
Zach Johnson winning the Masters by laying back for his approach on the par 5s demonstrates the fallacy of Jim's bomber friend's approach and thinking.

[Tom_Doak]

I'd be curious to know if his 3 putts were the result of the greens in general, or more of what Tom was saying, being in the wrong places.

Too often, golfers assume that wide fairways and big greens mean you can hit it anywhere - this is not true if the greens are well thought out, in my limited experience.

George:

They're the result of a guy who thinks he is playing to his strengths, but is actually playing to his weaknesses.

If he is really a great player, on most of these holes he might have been better off [with the benefit of hindsight] not going for the green, and instead playing to a spot where he had more chance to get up and down for birdie:  whether that was 100 yards back in the fairway, or off to one side of the green.  

But he wasn't playing for birdies; he hoped he would get lucky and wind up with a couple of reasonable putts for eagle, to balance out a couple of possible three-putts.  And he left himself in positions where he either had an "impossible" two putt, or probably a couple of times, where I would have two-putted but he was too mad to convert.  After three episodes, max, I'd gotten in his head.  Mr. Dye would be proud of me for that.

[Ken Moum]

Mark,

Your reference to MacKenzie is exactly what I was thinking.  Didn't someone else say that playersm would accept crazy contours if they just "were," but hated it when they knew someone did it on purpose... perhaps to make them look foolish.

Not long ago I played a links course that had a couple of rebuilt greens, one of which was a fairly undulating. IMHO, it wasn't really different from links course greens in the area, but it was the object of criticism as being over the top. I couldn't see it, but I think this attitude is pretty common, and not at all hard to understand.

K

[Sven Nilsen]

Tom:

You're giving the average retail golfer a lot of credit.  

From the sounds of it, there's a group of guys who would throw in the towel after one play, as opposed to ponying up for another crack at solving the riddle.

Don't know if that was ever a conversation you had with the Mosaic folks, but its one way to keep folks coming back, although you might not get all of them.

Sven

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