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Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #75 on: March 28, 2014, 02:41:23 PM »
Tom,
I always thought this was a "no holds barred' forum, I get called a moron here more than I did in grade school by the nuns.

Personally the thoughts of architects, to me, is a great thing. Getting to know the insides of a course and why you did what you did is a great eduactional tool. Finding out about certain routings and reasons for bunker placement have made me a better course rater for the local golf association. I appreciate courses more now due directly to the input from those who design and restore golf courses. I have only played two of your courses and enjoyed them both, sadly one NLE.

I enjoy seeing your posts and hope we don't lose you.

ed
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #76 on: March 28, 2014, 02:55:34 PM »
I always thought this was a "no holds barred' forum, I get called a moron here more than I did in grade school by the nuns.

No way!   ;)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joey Chase

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #77 on: March 28, 2014, 03:41:28 PM »
For me personally,  the writings and interactions on this site by the likes of Tom Doak and some of the others with such a wealth of knowledge does nothing but enrich the discussion.  I may not necessarily agree with all of Mr. Doak's ideals, but there aren't many out there that have been so influential in the history of GCA.  This is also coming from a second generation RTJ shaper, so no butt boy sucking up here!

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #78 on: March 28, 2014, 03:44:34 PM »
I always thought this was a "no holds barred' forum, I get called a moron here more than I did in grade school by the nuns.

No way!   ;)

Way! and usually in green ink
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #79 on: March 28, 2014, 03:49:58 PM »
When I first emailed Ran after discovering this website, I was frankly mystified by the presence of the Tom Doaks and Jeff Brauers posting on the site -- I wondered if they were anonymous posters using noms de plume.

The participation by the professionals -- whether they be architects, superintendents, or even course owners! -- is one of the special things that makes visiting the DG a part of my daily life. . .even sitting here in a hospital room with my mother.

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #80 on: March 28, 2014, 03:52:31 PM »
Without Tom Doak and Jeff Brauer I would never have become a golf course architect.  I came on this site many many years ago and both of them encouraged me to basically go for it.

However, I have NEVER been afraid to let either of them know my feelings of their design work or what I think of their opinions.

So no, your participation does not discourage an honest discussion of your work.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #81 on: March 28, 2014, 04:22:30 PM »
Tom:

So long as you are willing to accept criticism, I don't see your participation discouraging honest discussion.  In fact, I think some of the best threads on this site have involved your participation.  You provide a background to your thoughts and processes that help explain your golf courses.  

With regard to my posts, I don't ever worry about providing my honest thoughts on your courses.  It is easy as I generally love your work.  But, in the end, last I checked, you do not sign my paychecks or sleep in the same bed as me at night, so I am not too worried about the ramifications   ::)

For instance, you can talk until you are blue in the face, you will never convince me that the back left greenside bunker on #16 at Pacific Dunes should be there.   ;)
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Robert Chwalik

Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #82 on: March 28, 2014, 05:02:34 PM »
Tom,

As you will notice I do not post much ... I guess I am a lurker.  Many of the responses have been about how much the collective 'we' on the site learn from you and not many say your presence discourages honest discussion. 

My question to you is what do you learn (if anything) or gain from the discussion and have you (or could you foresee) incorporating the learning or insights into future designs?

As an aside, I do think the discussions about architecture with people that laid out the vision and strategy of a golf hole and had their 'hands in the dirt' is invaluable from my perspective and gives me a greater appreciation of all that goes into to good design when I am out on the course.  but again, I think it is a one way street in some ways... lots of benefits from my perspective, don't know how much from the architects' perspective.

thanks,

rtc

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #83 on: March 28, 2014, 05:23:45 PM »
Tom,

There is no doubt that those in the industry participating on this site ADD to the discussion.

However the answer to your question is YES.

As on other sites in other industries, eg. wine, the blend of the non-industry and industry folks makes for a lively and informative exchange.

While at the same time, those from the industry are somewhat shielded from a frank discussion involving criticism based on their helpfulness to the overall.

Having a site without active participants from the industry would inherently not be as good a site, yet for wine you might get some more honest opinions about taste for example.

As on other sites in other industries there is a mutual benefit to those from the industry and to the site by participating in these sites.

Being surrounded by "yes" men is always problem, which I don't think the site/you has/have here, although you may have some vocal cheerleaders.

The place to cultivate friends with your personality is in person, not online.

Good question.
It's all about the golf!

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #84 on: March 28, 2014, 05:36:04 PM »
 8)  No… and it never seemed to mitigate criticism about the 18th at HighPointe !  Wasn't there any way to save that course from reverting to a cornfield out front?



 I played it every year it was open..  every time we drive by it Ms Sheila says "don't look!"
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #85 on: March 28, 2014, 07:38:03 PM »
No Tom, your participation here doesn't discourage honest discussion of your work...but quite the opposite. Your participation as the DESIGNER of the work all but guarantees honest discussion (well at least as long as you give honest answers!). I also feel that you benefit in some ways from the feedback...which is good.

Just did a fun fact check of the Top 100 World Courses (combo of Golf Digest and Mag) and there are only 20 something living designers of these top 100 courses, and guess what...you have the most with 5 courses either wholly or jointly designed. Congratulations!

Maybe now I could encourage you to be the guest Golf Course Architect speaker at the upcoming ASGCA meeting next month in Tulsa.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #86 on: March 28, 2014, 08:43:34 PM »
Tom - I for one really appreciate your contributions.  Don't let the turkeys get you down.

I was once involved in local government in Beaverton, OR.  I helped to get a law passed that prevented dangerous animals like cougars from the city limits.  This was suburban Portland with a lot of kids around, and I feared that this one person's cougars would get free from his tiny backyard and attack kids. 

The law had something like 90% approval, but the other 10% really hated my guts.   I couldn't care less because I know I did the right thing.

Sean Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #87 on: March 28, 2014, 08:52:38 PM »
It doesn't discourage frank and honest discussion it may discourage uninformed comment/discussion. 

For instance it is rare that I will make significant comment or criticism of a course I have played only once. (i.e I didn't feel the love for The European Club - it was a nice round but didn't grab me - I don't make specific criticisms of it because it was the last course played on a long trip and I might have just hit the wall, my opinion would have been at best uninformed)

People are less likely to make ill considered or uninformed comments on this site about one of your courses because they know they are likely to get called on it and their lack of knowledge may be on display. Few people like to have any such lack of knowledge displayed. It is no bad thing that people have to write, think and edit themselves before hitting the send button.  To be clear I choose the word edit in the sense of checking facts, making concepts more concise and improving clarity of a post.



 

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #88 on: March 28, 2014, 08:54:43 PM »
When I first emailed Ran after discovering this website, I was frankly mystified by the presence of the Tom Doaks and Jeff Brauers posting on the site -- I wondered if they were anonymous posters using noms de plume.

The participation by the professionals -- whether they be architects, superintendents, or even course owners! -- is one of the special things that makes visiting the DG a part of my daily life. . .even sitting here in a hospital room with my mother.

Mark,

I can imagine someone having that initial reaction.
Tim Weiman

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #89 on: March 28, 2014, 09:02:15 PM »
Tom,

As you will notice I do not post much ... I guess I am a lurker.  Many of the responses have been about how much the collective 'we' on the site learn from you and not many say your presence discourages honest discussion. 

My question to you is what do you learn (if anything) or gain from the discussion and have you (or could you foresee) incorporating the learning or insights into future designs?

As an aside, I do think the discussions about architecture with people that laid out the vision and strategy of a golf hole and had their 'hands in the dirt' is invaluable from my perspective and gives me a greater appreciation of all that goes into to good design when I am out on the course.  but again, I think it is a one way street in some ways... lots of benefits from my perspective, don't know how much from the architects' perspective.

Robert:

I take away a lot from the site.  I get an idea of what has worked well and what hasn't on my own courses.  I learn what people think is controversial, or not.  I get prodded about a design idea I haven't thought about in years, and it's in the front of my brain when I go out to our latest construction project.  Or I see a hole I hadn't thought of for a long time.

I'm not sure I "learn" much in the threads where people ask me questions apart from feedback on what they like; I'm more likely to learn something in threads that others start.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #90 on: March 28, 2014, 09:29:08 PM »
Tom - I for one really appreciate your contributions.  Don't let the turkeys get you down.

I was once involved in local government in Beaverton, OR.  I helped to get a law passed that prevented dangerous animals like cougars from the city limits.  This was suburban Portland with a lot of kids around, and I feared that this one person's cougars would get free from his tiny backyard and attack kids. 

The law had something like 90% approval, but the other 10% really hated my guts.   I couldn't care less because I know I did the right thing.

Dan-It's not often you see the cougar, turkey and beaver-ton used in the same post. Well played!

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #91 on: March 28, 2014, 09:42:19 PM »
Tom, I think the chance to interact with professionals, be they architects, superintendents, golf pros, course owners or operators, is what makes this site so unique and fun. So I for one hope that you continue to contribute and participate.

As one who has not played your courses, I'm not sure I can comment on whether your participation discourages honest discussion, but I don't think it should have that impact. My question for you would be, which of your courses do you recommend for someone who has yet to play your courses but very much wants to do so (I understand that you probably recommend them all)?

herrstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #92 on: March 28, 2014, 11:31:02 PM »
Holy cow. Only Tom Doak would post such a topic. This kind of completely unfiltered honesty is what makes GCA the website it is.
When I first found The Confidential Guide, and The Anatomy of a Golf Course, when studying what made Lookout Mountain compelling to me, I was astounded at the direct, unafraid commentary from Doak. It was just not done, here in Chattanooga, to suggest any flaw at The Honors. Who was this guy?
King Oehmig and I invited him to Lookout to meet, as part of our interviews to select someone who could renovate Lookout.
We met with Bob Cupp, Brian Silva, Steve Smyers; maybe others I can't remember as the fog sets in.
Someone at the Club talked to Ben Crenshaw.
I talked to Pete Dye, with whom I had worked at The Honors.
Ultimately we went with Silva, whose personality seemed the only one likely to be able to convince the members at Lookout that this would be a good thing. We had no doubt he knew how to do it.
Over the years I've continued to watch Tom's work...he was always someone I recommended to other people building courses... I think the closest he came to getting hired on my recommendation was at Westhaven in Nashville. I told the developer there recently: "Can you imagine how cool that course would have been- how successful- if Doak had built a course in Nashville. It would have appealed to their 'we knew the best before you knew the best' sensibility. Now you guys couldn't hire him for any price." My theory at the time was, "Hitch your wagon to a rising star, who has studied the originals, who understands the Scottish roots of the game." I recommended Doak (Hanse was with him then, I think), Smyers, Silva, Coore and Crenshaw. Those were the ones whose work or ideas I knew; others may have been just as good, but that was enough of a group to choose from.
Since then, I have also come to know Hanse, whose work I also admire, and whom I count as a friend.
All of that said- nobody's work is beyond improvement. Controversy is one of the best parts of the game.
Tom, I cannot say what a grin it put on my face to find this post. Goodness!
This site would be diminished without you.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #93 on: March 29, 2014, 06:35:53 AM »
Just some early morning data to add using www.sitecomber.com, which is powered by our friends at Google. The number of times the following are mentioned on golfclubatlas.com:

  • Doak - 12,400
  • Fazio - 29,700
  • Hanse - 2590
  • Nicklaus - 6170
  • Coore - 15,800
  • Mucci - 22,100

Search algorithms are rarely accurate and are set up for Google to make money so do not take it as gospel. However, maybe Tom Fazio should be in the mix for the next course at Bandon/Streamsong. At least we would have something to talk about and Pat Mucci can tell them how to run their business :)
« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 06:56:11 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #94 on: March 29, 2014, 08:19:47 AM »
Just some early morning data to add using www.sitecomber.com, which is powered by our friends at Google. The number of times the following are mentioned on golfclubatlas.com:

  • Doak - 12,400
  • Fazio - 29,700
  • Hanse - 2590
  • Nicklaus - 6170
  • Coore - 15,800
  • Mucci - 22,100

Search algorithms are rarely accurate and are set up for Google to make money so do not take it as gospel. However, maybe Tom Fazio should be in the mix for the next course at Bandon/Streamsong. At least we would have something to talk about and Pat Mucci can tell them how to run their business :)

Those numbers seem pretty suspect considering the site says I've made 18,000 posts here since 1999.   :-[

Mike Sweeney

Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #95 on: March 29, 2014, 08:33:26 AM »
Tom,

You have many unique qualities but posting in the third person is not one of them. You are no Jimmy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Apa0nG1OfUc

I think most people refer to you as "tom" in your post and threads, the search was done on "doak".....
« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 08:40:26 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chilling Frank and Honest Discussion
« Reply #96 on: March 29, 2014, 10:06:26 AM »
I have been really disappointed that there have only been 93 threads on Streamsong.  Without you stifling discussion we could have reached 150+ easy.  

Randy Thompson was there today!  Maybe he'll start a new thread.

That's my sense of humor, too.

I would love too but don´t have time, I am busy trying to sell my few remaining assetts in South America, so I can move to the Steamsong área where I will become a Caddy and doublé my income from the last couple of years. Yipee!

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #97 on: March 29, 2014, 11:45:15 AM »

That said, the board generally should be *more* critical (in an analytical sense) of your courses than those of just about any other contemporary designers, because:
a) you are working on top-1% sites;
b) the benchmark comparison set is the world's tippy-top courses.

I am not sure we live up to that but I don't think it has much to do with your participation.

I agree with your first point. 

I sort of regret that the benchmark comparison is so high, though.  When we do a project like Common Ground, on something less than a great site, it's instantly dismissed because it is not a 1% site and we did not try to take on Pine Valley.  I anticipate other similar projects in years to come -- I've had more than my share of world-class sites already, and don't expect that there will continue to be a steady stream of them -- and it would be nice for them to be judged on what they are.

I jumped into this whole debate in part because I agree with your last point.  There is a lot of opinion tossed around here, and plenty of beating dead horses, but not so much analysis or new thought.  I really wanted to find out if somehow I'm getting in the way of that.


Hmm, there are a number of ways the business world deals with the "99%" issue you raise. If you are charging a lower fee then using a separate brand can differentiate those efforts from the one percenters. (Doesn't Nicklaus do something like this?)

Separately, there's the subtle distinction between the quality of the output and the efficiency of the designer (the old VORD concept: how much the designer accomplished given the site). That's impossible I think to hope for the general public to absorb. You're a victim of your own success.

Regarding your last sentence, I suppose the question is not specifically about your involvement but rather: how can we generate such discussion? One idea could be borrowed from a principle of brainstorming sessions: withhold judgement for as long as possible, and then only comment on the ideas/comments you want to expound on. Ignore the ones you want to correct or dispute. By "you" I mean all of us. I think this approach is more likely to generate "risky" comments, and that's where the good stuff lies. The bad stuff, too, it must be said, but that's the trade-off.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chilling Frank and Honest Discussion
« Reply #98 on: March 29, 2014, 03:30:54 PM »
Yeah, it's not the best title I've ever come up with ... I was trying to quote from the source on the other thread.  I'll change it.

P.S. my wife and I played Stronghold with Anthony Butler a couple of weeks ago and I still think it's pretty cool course.  And while the conditions weren't great, they were good enough.

I know that participation by architects makes me consider my words when I talk about their courses.

It doesn't impact me much in your case because I have only played Apache Stronghold, and that only a couple of times.

OTOH, I have four of Brauer's courses close to me and I've played a couple of them multiple times.  I hate admit it, but the fact that Jeff is wiling to come here and participate and that he's a good guy does affect my approach. But the fact is that's just being civil.

Only a complete a-hole is going to trash someone or their work, regardless of the subject, if they're standing next to him.  Sadly the Web's anonymity works lick alcohol, it makes jerks even less tolerable.  It even makes some really good people intolerable.

In case you wonder, I have said things that are WAAY more critical of Jeff's courses away from here than I ever have here.  Partly because I'm not that confident of myn standing to be critical, and partly because the only way I would bring them up to Jeff is if we could sit down face-to-face and he could tell me why I was full of crap.

I HAVE mentioned a couple of my issues here, and in both cases he didn't tell name that, so maybe we shouldn't worry about it.

However, that's no reason to give people permission to be uncivil.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Gib_Papazian

Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #99 on: March 29, 2014, 03:44:15 PM »
Tom,

I've had an architect whose work often gets panned here (deservedly so) refer to GCA (and Max's) as "Dickhead.com" - snarling that we're a bunch of insufferable, pseudo-intellectual, wannabe designers who spend their time kissing your ass and shouting down any opinion that deviates from the collective "group think."

Look, you and I have been friends a long time and there is no doubt some posters in the Treehouse find your presence a little intimidating, but where else in the golf world can you get instantaneous access to the thoughts of a top-flight architect without paying for it? Add in Mike Young, Brauer, Neal and the rest of the architects - plus the gaggle of golf writers, raters and industry professionals like Jim Kennedy and there are plenty of guys with enough street cred to go toe-to-toe with you or anybody else.

When I first met you years ago, people mistook your shyness in person for standoffishness - I am not sure if that is a word, but let's go with it. You generally did not make a lot of conversation and thus had an aura of mystery; the mad-scientist genius insane enough to have written a book criticizing the work of the biggest swinging dicks in the industry.

Now that you've been out in circulation for a few years - and are 10x more communicative - my guess would be that 75% of the posters on this board are honest about your work. The 25% who aren't keep their opinions to themselves largely (IMNSHO) because they have a small stool in the corner of the faculty lounge and don't have the chops to offer their opinions to the provost. Ever notice that Ran's write-ups don't get much critique from the Treehouse hoi polloi?

The other element - since honesty is the theme of the thread  - is that although I can personally nitpick individual holes or features on your designs, the vast majority of what you (and the gang who got their start in your nest) create is outstanding. Please, I am not the first person to tell you that. The underlying philosophy and design principles at Renaissance, Hanse Designs, DeVries Design and whatever Jim Urbina calls himself appeal to most of us because they are not formulaic and invariably interesting and creative.

Am I slurping Tom Doak here because we came to be friends? Fuck no, I am just writing the truth. If you put 500 golf architecture intellectuals into a closet - most of whom love and appreciate the minimalist roots of the ground game - there is bound to be a common thread of appreciation. You don't read a lot of harsh critiques of Bill and Ben's work here, yet neither of them have ever climbed into the Treehouse aside from a feature interview. Why? Because they don't churn out a bunch of cookie-cutter crap like Rees or indulgent obstacle courses like Jack.

The ass-rip on Fazio is the only hole in my thesis - mostly because I think his work is terrific within the context of his philosophy. That does not mean I agree with many things his firm does, but I've never walked off a Tom Fazio track thinking I wasted a perfectly good day on a pile of shit. The same cannot be said of many others.

In some ways, there are a handful of guys here who don't get enough love. Todd Eckenrode and David Kidd are damn good, but it is like they do not exist. I have never figured out why my friend John Harbottle never got his due from us critics. You both started with Pete and Alice and oddly, I see more Dye influence in his designs then in yours. Maybe it was his membership in the ASGCA; the Tartan jacket is a symbol of the anti-Christ to a few on this board.

I can point out that Bill and Ben have a penchant for awkward, overly long, uphill par-5s (Cuscowilla, B-Trails), that DeVries sometimes goes off the deep end with putting surface contours (#3 at Meadow, #13 at Green Hills) or that sometimes you design a hole that makes no sense (#10 at Apache) or even chicken out a little bit (#7 at GC or #10 at Old Mac). But taken as a body of work, those tiny little gripes are less than mouse nuts - especially compared to catastrophic failures by big names like Stone Harbor or that clumsy mess at Atlantic.  
« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 05:26:28 PM by Gib Papazian »