THE DEFINITIVE frank and open discussion about either course Dismal River

[Michael George]

1-Sick of the Dismal bashing.  If you don't like the topic, don't read the posts.  I don't read 75% of the threads in this Discussion Group.  Doesn't mean I have to trash those that start what I deem to be "stupid" threads.

2 - I have never felt restricted to share my honest views on Dismal River - in any thread.  Chris and its members have always welcomed criticisms ....so long as they were honest and on the merits.  Likewise, I have always welcomed their defense of their club.   If these refutes were personal, I would bash Chris and the other members.  But they rarely are.

3-Chris, you know that I think highly of you. For those that don't know him, he is a good guy.  However, unlike David, I think that this thread is a regurgitation of things discussed in other threads.  People are going to criticize your participation.  It is undeservingly in my opinion, but it is life.    If you ignore them, it dies.  If you respond with a thread, it just furthers the negativity.  Unfortunately, some take discussions on important worldly topics....like golf courses...and make them personal.  I don't understand it, but oh well.  

4-Back to the original question of the thread - my honest opinion of Dismal River White.  I have provided it before, but provide it here again.  I hope that it is post worthy.

Dismal White is a really good golf course that is very fun to play.  I fondly remember a lot of the fun shots that I hit there.  It is designed to be a fun golf course...not a tournament golf course.  If you like having fun and hitting fun shots, you will like the golf course.  If you like walking only courses or "fair" courses, you may not like it.  I brought 8 guys to Dismal for the 5th Major.  I was the only architecture geek.  The others just liked playing golf.  6 guys (including myself) loved Dismal and can't wait to go back.  2 guys thought it was too quirky.  Ben doesn't like the bank shots.  I thought that they were a lot of fun.  I am not going to nowhere Nebraska for the same old thing.  It should be different.

On the negative, it could use some changes that would improve playability and avoid lost balls, which always increases the enjoyment of the game.  Here would be my changes:

Hole #1- widen the right fairway.  Too many lost balls on the opening tee shot.  The right side of the fairway still provides a blind shot to the green and no roll off the tee.  So a player will have a longer approach shot to a blind green.  Meanwhile, the left side still provides the speed slot.

Hole #2- the more you play it, the more you like it (I really enjoyed it by the end of the visit).  But I understand the criticisms.  To make it more playable, I would use the "left" tees so that it plays slightly less at an angle off the tee (still incorporating Cape concepts, just not so 90 degree-ish).  This would limit the balls that go down in the gulch due to picking the wrong line.  Then, I would try and reduce the blindness of the 2nd shot with some earthmoving.  It is already an exciting approach with the bank to the left and the fall off to the right.  Seeing how the ball reacts and ends up would be fun to watch.  

Hole #5- the quirkiest hole on the course.  I love quirk so I love this hole.  So please don't take the quirk away.  However, it could be made more playable.  Add a bailout area to the left of the green (so if someone wants to try and get up and down, they can do so) - ie.  just give more places to miss on the hole.

Hole #9 - my favorite hole on the course from fairway to green.  However, I did not like the driving area.  Need to define driving area (maybe lower the front of the fairway so it is not blind or add a bunker at the front of the fairway as an aiming point) and widen fairway to the right.  

Hole #14 - I would get rid of the existing fairway and make the fairway on top of the ridge to the left of the existing bowl fairway.  It would play as a dogleg right Cape hole around the bowl, it would be easier to maintain and would be a nice hole on top of the dunes (instead of down in the dunes).   The green complex is really special so I would not touch it.

That said, it is a great place and I loved my time there.   I hope to get back someday.

  

[Mac Plumart]

I don't feel like offering a rebuttal to Mac's and Eric's assertion that #10 White is better than #10 Red.

John Kirk made this comment earlier in this thread.  I wanted to comment on it.

I picked White 10 as the winner in my match play contest because it is so much fun.  I didn't say that it was a "better" hole than Red 10. I consistently mentioned the holes on the Red were "solid awarding winning classically good holes"...or something to that effect.  Some of the White holes are unique and fun, to me.  They are not necessarily better.  

Kind of like Caddyshack is a movie I'd prefer to watch over Ordinary People, which won the Best Picture award in 1980...same year that Caddyshack come out.

That is what I find fun about going to Dismal...two different styles of courses...which I brought up multiple times in that thread.

And, finally, as I mentioned in my last post on that thread...Red won my match play contest.  I think Red is one of the best courses I've ever seen...I'm proud to be a member of the club...I'm proud to have contributed to getting it built...I hope that what occurred there can have some kind of impacted on the golf world, as it seems the construction team did some unique things that helped get the course built cost effectively and should help it be maintained in the same manner.  I also tip my cap to Mr. Doak for, as he mentioned earlier, giving back a portion of his designer's fee to get that course built.  (I've heard of him donating his time and expertise on other courses/causes before, for the better of the game...he has my respect for that).

Having said all that, I really enjoy the White course too.  If you are a design and construction expert...you may disagree with my take/opinion on that course.  That is fine with me...as a player (with no business interest in golf whatsoever), I find it fun and I enjoy playing it.  Could someone have done a better job in regards to building it...it sure sounds like it...but that is okay...I still like it.

I hope Red continues to grow in well and I hope it continues to get the credit it deserves on all levels...it is something special.

[Michael George]

That is what I find fun about going to Dismal...two different styles of courses...which I brought up multiple times in that thread.

I agree with you Mac.  They are 2 very different courses.  Any changes to White should not be made to be more like the Red.  I love the differences.  

[Chris Johnston]

Let's at least be honest here, Chris. You started this thread as some sort of rhetorical gimmick to try and "test" me. It just so happened that people were so starved to have an opportunity to engage in frank commentary about your courses, that they took of the rare opportunity to explore some actual issues.   Funny that after the countless Dismal threads that it took a thread started as a result of a tantrum to make that happen.

As for the rest, not interested, except to to scratch my head about the obliviousness expressed in your suggestion about not making things personal.  Look at your creation of this thread, for goodness sake!

I do hope the thread finds its way back to actual substance.

David,

Aside from your constant flirting with me, do you have anything meaningful, either frank or open, to contribute to this thread?  If you don't, do everyone a favor and please move along.  I really don't think many here are entertained by our budding bromance.

Still waiting for the invisible ninja army to weight in with frank and open commentary on either course.  That was the purpose of the thread, and it shall not be hijacked for the same old pettiness.

[Mark Fedeli]

Kind of like Caddyshack is a movie I'd prefer to watch over Ordinary People, which won the Best Picture award in 1980...same year that Caddyshack come out.

What would be the Raging Bull in this scenario? The film from 1980 that should have won Best Picture.

[John Kirk]

Hi Chris,

To clarify...

It has nothing to do with what you have written or said about Dismal River, or Ballyneal, or anywhere else.  You are a regularly participating member of GCA, and the owner of Dismal River GC, a position of considerable and growing prestige.  It is my belief that you impact the nature of the debate just by being here.  It is the first time we've had the owner of a high profile course participating in discussions about the course, and there have been some unique consequences, some negative, because of that dynamic.

I think you have maintained a gentlemanly demeanor throughout this all.  I do think you sometimes take a dig at somebody/something by qualifying compliments, using the general formula "I like _______ , but _______ ."

A few years ago, a well-known architect joined the group.  Everybody was happy to have him join, until he revealed his agenda, which was to go after a couple posters who were criticizing a couple of his courses.  Soon after, he disappeared.  Man, he was pissed.  This has been nothing like that.

I went back and looked at the DR vs. BN thread for the first time in three months, and it looked better and more civil than I remembered.  I admitted that I was feeling down about it, perhaps for selfish reasons.  Some of my buddies decided not to participate, and I had hoped that me and JK could have had a few laughs about it afterwards.

"The one time you and Cheryl visited last year, you were admittedly off your feed - I think you would agree you were not a very happy person.  I didn't shun you for being surly, I came to visit to try to brighten your mood."

"To assert that people don't want to participate due to me really fails basic common sense"

"I have never stifled honest debate, but I don't suffer fools very well."

I isolated these quotes from your last post.

I told you I was unhappy that day, which had nothing to do with the golf course.  I was not unhappy when studying and writing about the two courses.  I was excited about it, and had the additional task of separating my mood that day from a dispassionate analysis, which was a challenge.

No need to question my common sense or foolhardiness.  That's just dumb.  Are you crazy?  You must be nuts!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_kwXNVCaxY

[John Kirk]

John:

There are two parts to my answer there.

One, my participation is sometimes limited by circumstances -- there are weeks when I've got time, and weeks where I don't have much.

Two, you were comparing two courses that are both among my best, that were both competing for members, and that both have many ardent supporters here.  Do you really wonder why I would avoid getting in the middle of that?  Anytime I came out in favor of one or the other -- on either side -- I'd be accused of bias by half the participants, and of being a self-promoter all of the time, by a few in the L.A. contingent.

I'm happy to talk about the differences between courses, just not for the benefit of a bunch of guys keeping score [or settling scores].

Perhaps it was wishful thinking that you would at least contribute with thoughts about design, while staying away from the "which one is better" aspect of the thread.  If you remember, you did say at the beginning how the poster who guesses your picks would win a prize of immense value.  But I think you quickly realized that was not a good idea.  Still, I had unrealistic hopes you'd offer some regular insight.

[Jim Colton]

I don't feel like offering a rebuttal to Mac's and Eric's assertion that #10 White is better than #10 Red.

John Kirk made this comment earlier in this thread.  I wanted to comment on it.

I picked White 10 as the winner in my match play contest because it is so much fun.  I didn't say that it was a "better" hole than Red 10. I consistently mentioned the holes on the Red were "solid awarding winning classically good holes"...or something to that effect.  Some of the White holes are unique and fun, to me.  They are not necessarily better.  

Kind of like Caddyshack is a movie I'd prefer to watch over Ordinary People, which won the Best Picture award in 1980...same year that Caddyshack come out.

That is what I find fun about going to Dismal...two different styles of courses...which I brought up multiple times in that thread.

And, finally, as I mentioned in my last post on that thread...Red won my match play contest.  I think Red is one of the best courses I've ever seen...I'm proud to be a member of the club...I'm proud to have contributed to getting it built...I hope that what occurred there can have some kind of impacted on the golf world, as it seems the construction team did some unique things that helped get the course built cost effectively and should help it be maintained in the same manner.  I also tip my cap to Mr. Doak for, as he mentioned earlier, giving back a portion of his designer's fee to get that course built.  (I've heard of him donating his time and expertise on other courses/causes before, for the better of the game...he has my respect for that).

Having said all that, I really enjoy the White course too.  If you are a design and construction expert...you may disagree with my take/opinion on that course.  That is fine with me...as a player (with no business interest in golf whatsoever), I find it fun and I enjoy playing it.  Could someone have done a better job in regards to building it...it sure sounds like it...but that is okay...I still like it.

I hope Red continues to grow in well and I hope it continues to get the credit it deserves on all levels...it is something special.

Mac,

 I've got a lot of respect for you. I was trying to think about how the members (and Tom) would feel if Jack Nicklaus were brought in to build a second course at Ballyneal. I think I would be opposed to building something so dramatically different than the first one. I obviously love the first course and that's the main reason I'm a member. I kinda know what I like and I rather just stick to playing courses that fit my ideal at this point in my life. Maybe I'm just getting old and set in my ways.

 I guess the other way to look at it is to celebrate the differences and just enjoy your club with your friends and fellow members. That seems to be where you are at and obviously it brings a lot of joy to you. Very cool that we've both found out nirvana in different ways.

 Chris, since you admitted that a very small portion of your membership are GCA nerds, did you have any challenges educating or convincing some members to go with Doak for the second course (or even the need to build a second course at all)? I'm sure some fraction had to be relatively narrow minded like me, and since they probably joined due to an affinity to the Nicklaus course, would've preferred more of the same.

 This thread reminded me of a similar thread that I started back in 2010 - looking back, I think the discussion was frank and honest with some challenges but pretty civil. Reading it now, I can see how people are at times guarded in their comments, not wanting to offend members of the course. Adam and I were probably a bit too quick on the defensive. I guess some of that is common courtesy, but does it move us away from discussing the courses in earnest?

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45086.0.html

[John Kirk]

I don't feel like offering a rebuttal to Mac's and Eric's assertion that #10 White is better than #10 Red.

John Kirk made this comment earlier in this thread.  I wanted to comment on it.

I picked White 10 as the winner in my match play contest because it is so much fun.  I didn't say that it was a "better" hole than Red 10. I consistently mentioned the holes on the Red were "solid awarding winning classically good holes"...or something to that effect.  Some of the White holes are unique and fun, to me.  They are not necessarily better.  

Kind of like Caddyshack is a movie I'd prefer to watch over Ordinary People, which won the Best Picture award in 1980...same year that Caddyshack come out.

Hi Mac,

In my opinion, #10 White is very unusual, one that would yield lots of discussion about its playability.  If people had been more willing to discuss specifics, we might have learned something.  It looks like the penalty for not hitting the proper part of the green is enormous, as much as any green anywhere.  We would have also discussed whether that constitutes good design, and whether it should be considered better or more fun, than #10 Red.

Personally, in a hole-by-hole comparison, I almost always prefer a par 5 over a par 3.  Typically there's more strategy.

"Ordinary People" is a downer of a movie.  It did not age well.  There's a reason you don't see it circulating on late night TV.

[Chris Johnston]

Hi Chris,

To clarify...

It has nothing to do with what you have written or said about Dismal River, or Ballyneal, or anywhere else.  You are a regularly participating member of GCA, and the owner of Dismal River GC, a position of considerable and growing prestige.  It is my belief that you impact the nature of the debate just by being here.  It is the first time we've had the owner of a high profile course participating in discussions about the course, and there have been some unique consequences, some negative, because of that dynamic.

I think you have maintained a gentlemanly demeanor throughout this all.  I do think you sometimes take a dig at somebody/something by qualifying compliments, using the general formula "I like _______ , but _______ ."

A few years ago, a well-known architect joined the group.  Everybody was happy to have him join, until he revealed his agenda, which was to go after a couple posters who were criticizing a couple of his courses.  Soon after, he disappeared.  Man, he was pissed.  This has been nothing like that.

I went back and looked at the DR vs. BN thread for the first time in three months, and it looked better and more civil than I remembered.  I admitted that I was feeling down about it, perhaps for selfish reasons.  Some of my buddies decided not to participate, and I had hoped that me and JK could have had a few laughs about it afterwards.

"The one time you and Cheryl visited last year, you were admittedly off your feed - I think you would agree you were not a very happy person.  I didn't shun you for being surly, I came to visit to try to brighten your mood."

"To assert that people don't want to participate due to me really fails basic common sense"

"I have never stifled honest debate, but I don't suffer fools very well."

I isolated these quotes from your last post.

I told you I was unhappy that day, which had nothing to do with the golf course.  I was not unhappy when studying and writing about the two courses.  I was excited about it, and had the additional task of separating my mood that day from a dispassionate analysis, which was a challenge.

No need to question my common sense or foolhardiness.  That's just dumb.  Are you crazy?  You must be nuts!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_kwXNVCaxY

Thank you, John.

You are a friend and are no fool.  You bring great meat to this fine table.

I agree with you that the tread in question was good and worthwhile, and civil until the hijackers arrived.  You did good and, in my opinion, should be proud of it.

[Mac Plumart]

Very cool that we've both found out nirvana in different ways.

Thanks, Jim.  That is a good way to put it, "nirvana"...that is what it feels like when I'm out there.  I'm sure you feel the same about your club.  That's what it is all about to me.


John...

I'm happy to discuss 10 with you and Red and White.  One of the issues with long threads that go over days and days, is that people don't always have the time in their busy days to go in-depth on each and every hole...at the precise time when it is being discussed online.

I am happy to discuss now...if you'd like.  I will be logging in and out over the weekend...but if you can be patient with me, I'll return when I can to continue the discussion.

My main reason for picking White 10 was the simple fact that every single time I play the hole my entire group smiles, laughs, really watches the tee shots, where they land, where they roll to, and hoot, holler, and laugh until the ball is in the hole.  Especially fun times are when we have to putt up and over the ridge and skirt the bunker to get on the right putting line.  Long story short, it is always fun...and great for match play.

NOW...would I like that type of a hole on my local home club?  Perhaps not...too odd.  Scores are too unpredictable.  It might become frustrating...I don't know.  But I do know that I love playing it when I go to Dismal.

10 Red is more classically good.  The tee shot has interest.  What line do you want to take?  What club should you hit?  All the while, the tactics you want to employ on your subsequent shots need to be kept in mind too.  It is tough if you get out of position on that hole, as blindness can creep into play and putting up a good score can be tricky.  AND missing that green can bring in some real short game challenges.

In my mind, 10 White is simply pure fun...smile, laugh, fun.  10 Red is simply a good golf hole.  Strategic, tactical golf hole that you must execute on.


Edit...sidenote, Jim, I have a lot of respect for you as well.  I've been told you are in the latest Links Magazine for your efforts with the 100 Hole Hike.  Kudos!

[David_Elvins]

First of all, I'm here to build great golf courses, not to win prizes for routings.

Tom,  I agree.  You might have done a great job designing a golf course for the site, my only quibble was you claiming it was one of your best routings.  Surely a better routing would have achieved all that you did, AND start and finish at the same point?

I knew not everyone would agree, but I didn't expect a reaction as strong as yours.

Sorry, but the thread did ask for frank discussion.  

[Jim Colton]

I spent about 10-15 minutes putting on the 10th green while my partner was tending to some personal stomach issues at the turn. It did seem like you could negotiate the middle bunker well enough if you were in the front and the pin was in the back. A tough two- putt for sure but nothing too extreme.

Chris talked about changes to the back half of the green? Does that mean filling in some of the back bowl to remove some of the height difference between front and back?

[Tim_Weiman]

David Elvins:

What does "cheating" mean?


David Moriarty:

Again, I haven't seen Dismal, but would agree with your observation that one way, ski slope architecture would not be a positive development for golf. I'll even go out on a limb and suggest that Jim Urbina himself might agree with you.

But neither would whatever we might call the Sheep Ranch.........except that it is really cool for a "one off".

It that sense one or two "one way, ski slopes" courses might also be cool.

I don't want to travel to see the same thing all over again. I want to travel to see something that is both good and unique.

[Chris Johnston]

Chris, since you admitted that a very small portion of your membership are GCA nerds, did you have any challenges educating or convincing some members to go with Doak for the second course (or even the need to build a second course at all)? I'm sure some fraction had to be relatively narrow minded like me, and since they probably joined due to an affinity to the Nicklaus course, would've preferred more of the same.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45086.0.html

Hi Jim,

As you will recall, we have ample space (rooms and clubhouse) and a second course was always in the plan at Dismal from the beginning.  That said, the economy made the idea more than questionable for a time.  The key was to establish trust with a then whipsawed membership and stabilize the club financially which was done pretty fast in the first year.  I won't suggest that was easy.  It also begins with realizing you have a problem, plan a realistic strategy to solve it, and communicate with the members so they know what you plan to do.  I believe you can solve most problems if you tackle them with truth...if you lose that, you lose the game.  A lot of phone calls.  Trust is the key and bullshit never works.  One good thing is the club never slashed the golf course budget...that is fatal.

as to the why?  Like any business, we need volume or yield.  Not much different than a manufacturing plant...running at less than breakeven capacity is a drag.  For us, with the scale of the property, we believed a cool second course would add both volume, members, and extend stays.  When I was at Sand Hills, there were times where I got sick of playing the same great course.  Two courses solved that problem.

I don't think we did much convincing. Probably similar to you and John at Ballyneal, the guys really wanted the club to work.  I won't go into that sad saga but will say I really respect your love for that place.  We selected Tom and he us, we put the second course to the membership for a vote, and the ballot passed with quite a cushion.  That really speaks volumes about the members of Dismal River...voting to build a new course in the middle of the worst possible industry conditions with failure all around.   On of the most memorable moments occurred on an all hands conference call...one of my favorite members said the following in jest:  "Well, hell, if we're going to go down, we may as well go down in flames".  That comment alone probably converted several "on the fencers".

Another funny story from last year.  A member and good friend from Vail arrived mid July for his first visit of the season.  I greeted him at the door and the first thing he said is: "I can't believe you're still here!  We all figured you'd be gone by now".  I won't share the two word response i gave him, but you can probably guess. 

Now, I also made a huge mistake that put the entire project in jeopardy.  After the assessment, I (naively) expected everyone to pay.  Some didn't, and more than a few paid slowly out of necessity.  I really should have planned for that.  With the project already underway, I had to go back to the same good folks (now excited) and tell them truthfully that I whiffed.  The result was a second ballot for a second traunch to fill the hole, using a creative structure, and that vote was overwhemingly positive.  As mentioned earlier, Tom also stepped in to assist.  That could be why the members are so passionate - they got to watch a new course be created from scratch!  It's also why Tom Doak is both friend and hero.

Regardless what some here may think of me and the sheer joy I find in golf, something very special and quite uncommon happened at Dismal River.  Something positive.  In this economy, and this industry, that really is cool.

[DMoriarty]

Tim,

Sheep Ranch is a very cool "one off," but I don't quite understand why you would suggest it might not be a positive development for golf? Or maybe I am misunderstanding you? Even if I agreed with SR was negative for gca (and I don't think I do) I think Sheep Ranch is distinguishable.  For one thing, I don't think that there is much chance that the Sheep Ranch formula is going to catch on for a host of reasons, one of which is that it might be a difficult concept to make profitable (although I think it might be possible with in a very unique situation.)

This idea of one way, ski slope golf is of more concern, though, because it seems to be a pretty logical progression in the "advancement" of cart golf, doesn't it? Good uphill holes are hard to design, and many golfers don't like them much anyway, so why not just toss them in the dustbin?  Play downhill!  Its more fun! No constraints. Find the best land for each hole regardless of location. As Tom said, they'll be in a cart after the end of the round anyway. So why sweat it?  And while I doubt it would work out that way, an argument could be made that playing downhill would make it an easier walk for those who cared to (provided they had a cart stationed at the end.)   Golf as a downhill thrill ride.  What could go wrong?

In short, I think that Jim Urbina might have been onto something, at least if he was looking for the next possible trend in golf.  The first cart ball mountain course was probably seemed like a pretty cool "one off" too.  But the trend caught on, and this trend could be catching on, too.  We could be witnessing the beginning of the next trend in cart golf.  If it seems like the great Tom Doak is on board, who wouldn't be?

Imagine a property like Rock Creek only with both nines running down hill, and maybe a chairlift in between, along the scenic creek  One could ride up, and go left or right, just like off a ski lift.  Play down one nine, then ride up and play down the other.   Mechanized walking golf, with no or few pesky uphill holes.  The hundred hole hike would be a breeze.    

[Tim_Weiman]

David,

You have definitely put more thought into to it than I. As for Sheep Ranch, I think it is really cool, but just can't imagine it going beyond a "one off". Maybe that is what I mean more than being good or bad for golf architecture.

Regarding the ski slope idea, I don't like it generally speaking. It certainly doesn't sound like a good way to encourage walking, so that is a big strike against it in my book.

Is Dismal really a ski slope course?

[Dan Herrmann]

Neither course at Dismal is anything like a ski slope. 

I loved both courses, and I think the new (Doak) course could end up being considered world class once she grows in.  Today, she's only "amazing"

I'd also say that Jack's (original) course just doesn't get old.  It's exciting and a blast to play.

[DMoriarty]

Dan,  I don't mean to imply that either Dismal course (or any other course) is anything like a ski slope.  Ideally ski slopes have thousands of feet of vertical, and I don't think that would work well in golf. I used the phrase one way, ski slope for Jim Urbina's idea because downhill skiing is (generally) a one way, downhill sport, and it sounds like the course he was envisioning was that way as well.  Obviously the "downhill" would have to be much less severe on a ski slope.

Regarding DR, I was under the impression that after the first handful of holes, the course was pretty much all downhill.  Is that not the case?  

[Tim_Weiman]

Is Dismal really a ski slope course?

I haven't been there, but it doesn't sound like it.  I was referring to the concept and thinking of Tom's description of the terrain mentioned in the Urbina story. (ADDED: Also, I was thinking of the terrain Rock Creek.)  But from the descriptions, it does sound like a key component of the DR course is that much of it plays downhill, and the fact that the ends don't meet allows the golfer to avoid having to play back uphill at the end.

I don't like the one way, ski slope idea either, at least not in theory.  I'm not commenting on DR's routing, because i haven't seen it.

David,

I have been to Rock Creek and can't quite visualize a ski slope design. Anyway, some people love the place, but it is not my favorite of Tom's courses. I find the venue a bit too much sensory overload. Much prefer a place like St Andrews Beach which is much more focused on the golf course.

[Dan Herrmann]

Nah - there's plenty of uphill there throughout both layouts' routing.

[Keith OHalloran]

I admit I am writing this with a helmet on but....
If Tom said that he put the best 18 holes on the ground, why would anyone care that the course does not end where it starts? We are not talking about your local GC where you play 18, have lunch with the boys and head home. You are in the sand hills, you take carts to your cabin, you don't go home for days. Why the consternation on where you finish?

[Bruce Wellmon]

I haven't been there

because i haven't seen it.

I'm calling "Bullshit" here. Perhaps your comments would have a little more merit if you had if fact, been to the course(s).

[Don_Mahaffey]

Not only has he never seen it, he makes it clear he will never visit.  Yet, he's like a pit bull on a steak when it comes to any thread that mentions DR. That seems pretty damn strange to me. I can think of only one reason why he continues to participate in DR threads.

[Chris Johnston]

Not only has he never seen it, he makes it clear he will never visit.  Yet, he's like a pit bull on a steak when it comes to any thread that mentions DR. That seems pretty damn strange to me. I can think of only one reason why he continues to participate in DR threads.

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