Cobb’s Creek Golf Club….Past, Present, and Future

[Joe Bausch]

Pete Trenham has again worked tirelessly on another Phialdelphia golf story with this piece on Cobb's Creek:

http://trenhamgolfhistory.org/PTHGCobbsCreekRestoration3.html

Enjoy!

[Mike Sweeney]

Joe,

This is extremely incomplete!

They are missing the #8 golfer from the Saint Joseph's Preparatory School team playoff for the 1979 Catholic League Championships!! I beat XYZ who was the football center for the Catholic League Champions in a three hole playoff that finished on the third hole!

Please update!

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,

This is extremely incomplete!

They are missing the #8 golfer from the Saint Joseph's Preparatory School team playoff for the 1979 Catholic League Championships!! I beat XYZ who was the football center for the Catholic League Champions in a three hold playoff that finished on the third hole!

Please update!

No, Pete's article is complete alright. 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Regarding the future, Joe Logan brings us an update taking into account the reality of Philly politics :

http://myphillygolf.com/detail.asp?id=14811&pid=20


In the master plan proposal, in return for it's investment, the non-profit seeks a 99-year lease to manage the Cobb’s Creek.   A century, basically. That gives the city pause.
 
"Whoevers gets this ain’t getting it for 99 years," said the city official, who asked not to be identified by name.
 
The city, he said, has a rule of thumb for these things:  For every million dollars invested, you get one year.  For the Cobb’s Creek restoration, that would mean a 14-year lease.
 
"Okay, if we go 2 or 2½ times that, that’s 40 years," said the city official.  "Again, perfect scenario, there would be negotiations."

[Mike Sweeney]

As the guy who grew up on Cobbs Creek, let's be honest. Turning a Doak 4 in to a Doak 6, maybe 7, for $14 million makes no sense.

Mike Cirba,

You are a great guy, so get your group to buy Torresdale Frankford Country Club and take it public for 1/2 the price and you OWN it.

[Joe Bausch]

As the guy who grew up on Cobbs Creek, let's be honest. Turning a Doak 4 in to a Doak 6, maybe 7, for $14 million makes no sense.

Mike Cirba,

You are a great guy, so get your group to buy Torresdale Frankford Country Club and take it public for 1/2 the price and you OWN it.

Wow, Mike Sweeney.  Wow.

[Mike Sweeney]

Wow, Mike Sweeney.  Wow.

Joe,

I am sorry. I know you guys have alot of time and energy into this project, but $14 million is silly to spend for an existing golf course. The USGA spent $2.7 million on BB:

The USGA provided $2.7 million to cover most of the renovations, and Rees Jones volunteered his services to refurbish and restore the Black to its original state by using aerial photographs from 1938, just two years after it opened.

http://lubbockonline.com/stories/060902/pro_0609020104.shtml

I have said this before, and will say it again. Bethpage Black sort of worked because it is surrounded by 4 other golf courses. They can afford to have one over the top golf course. Cobbs does not have that luxury.

[Jon Wiggett]

Probably just city official bluster.

[Ian Larson]

What the hell does the Doak scale have to do with this project as any type of justification to do it or not? What a joke. Nobody outside of this site cares about the Doak scale or even knows what it is. If the city doesn't spend 14 million on Cobb's Creek, and there IS private money, they are spending it on turning the Reading Railroad elevated track line into a park. Or building skateparks for the kids near the museum. Or rebuilding the entire Schuylkill Banks. The big difference between what the City IS spending on versus what you say isn't worth it...is that Cobb's Creek will actually bring in revenue. ALOT of revenue. When it's done and successful express your opinion of its rating on a dumb scale and that's it's a waste of City funds by not showing up at the first tee Mike Sweeney.

[Mike Sweeney]

What the hell does the Doak scale have to do with this project as any type of justification to do it or not? What a joke. Nobody outside of this site cares about the Doak scale or even knows what it is. If the city doesn't spend 14 million on Cobb's Creek, and there IS private money, they are spending it on turning the Reading Railroad elevated track line into a park. Or building skateparks for the kids near the museum. Or rebuilding the entire Schuylkill Banks. The big difference between what the City IS spending on versus what you say isn't worth it...is that Cobb's Creek will actually bring in revenue. ALOT of revenue. When it's done and successful express your opinion of its rating on a dumb scale and that's it's a waste of City funds by not showing up at the first tee Mike Sweeney.

Ian,

You are 100% right. The Doak Scale was a GCA.com cheap shot. Cobbs Creek has been bringing in revenues for years, and this is not a new project. At a $14 million price tag, please tell me how the numbers work?

If you want to make the argument that the course gets additional play, here are Mike's numbers from an old thread:

______________________________________________

Recall that 80,000 rounds were the norm through the 1920s, which increased to 120,000 annual rounds in 1929 with the addition of the Karakung course.    Even in 1940 Cobb's Creek had more rounds than any course in the country.

In the year 2000, that number for both courses was 80,216.   In the past decade, there has already been a 45% falloff...

2001 - 68,206
2002 - 62, 291
2003 - 48,333
2004 - 44, 426
2005 - 41,737
2006 - 42,754
2007 - 44,481

I've yet to see numbers for 2008....I'd expect to see a bump given some of the publicity that's been generated, but I'd contend that the property today is being seriously underutilized when one considers the possibility of:
_______________________________________________________________________

Please tell me how the numbers work on the newly configured Cobbs and please also state the loss of revenues when the project is going on.

How is this going to be re-paid and how much private money is coming into the project?

If you are going to make the argument that other projects in Philly are wasteful, let's agree on that too as I don't really keep in touch with Philly politics.

I basically grew up on Cobbs and Walnut Lane, played high school golf at Cobbs, and played Cobbs when I lived in Center City for 2 years after college. I see the value in what it provides today and I think $14 million could be better used elsewhere in golf and/or Philadelphia.

If the number was $5.0 million (inflated Bethpage Black kind of number), I could see it. At $14 million, i just don't see the numbers working. Please tell me how I am wrong.

[Ian Larson]

Mike,

First, have you seen any plans or financials for the project? How much of the 14 million is private money and how much is the city?

Second, your shot at Cobb's with a useless scale is baseless if you haven't seen any plans and a shovel hasn't even touched ground.

Third, why does the only benchmark on a project like this have to be Bethpage? What about Galloping Hills in New Jersey? My firm is finishing up a massive renovation to the county course that spent even more money on new driving range facilities and a enormous clubhouse. The New Jersey State Golf Association has moved it's headquarters there and they are preparing for upcoming amateur tournaments. It's a one course facility, all on its own. Managed by Kemper I believe. Huge revenues in a metropolitan area. They also closed a couple other county courses that weren't bringing in the revenue to increase the bottom line.

Does this all sound familiar? It does to me. It sounds almost identical to Cobb's Creek. And it's a success.


Fourth, are you familiar with anything in the renovation process? The renovation at Galloping Hills is also similar to Cobb's. It's been done through the winter and revenue loss has been minimal. And who's not to say tha Cobb's could be done in 2 or 3 phases spread over 2 or three winters while closed?

Besides the private money being used I feel the city should close FDR and sell the land and move the First Tee of Philadelphia to Cobb's Creek and make it the central location of all things public golf in Philadelphia.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Slow down, boys....

The $14MM is all private money.
The family involved is taking a very long view here (see 99 year lease) and is more interested in this project as a way to give back to the city and build a legacy than a short term ROI.
Cobb's historical and architectural legacy is extremely important to the project and couldn't be duplicated anywhere else.
The real estate footprint of Cobb's is much bigger than TF.  Keep in mind, Cobbs is actually two courses covering 350 acres.  The proposal has a restored Olde course, a spectacular 9 hole course (on the Karakung property), a kids training center with full size range and 3 hole kids course plus other amenities.  In addition, there is a composite tournament course capable of using the entire property for a full scale professional tournament on a 7200+ course.

[Mike Sweeney]

Slow down, boys....

The $14MM is all private money.

This COMPLETELY reframes the conversation, and I would strongly suggest you have that article updated. $14 million in donated money is completely different that $14 mm in mainly tax payer money.

If this is true, go for it, and hopefully I can get an invitation from St Joe's Prep grad Michael Ritter since my GCA friends are gone But I prefer not to see an "enormous clubhouse" at Cobbs if anyone is asking

[Tim Martin]

The city of Philadelphia told Mike Cirba and Joe Bausch that they needed to "go find the money" and get back back to us from the project's inception. That has always been clear.

[Joe Bausch]

I might have to visit the teachers at 'the prep' to see if they are now covering reading comprehension.   

[Joe Bausch]

From Mike Cirba:

Mike Sweeney/All,

No worries about anything said here affecting our friendships as I appreciate the frank dialogue and your thoughts and suggestions.

That said, I'd like to reiterate a few things said by Geoff Walsh, Ian Larson, and some others and add a few other comments..

First, all of the money for the golf course restoration has been privately raised and there are others beyond the primary donors who are likely going to pitch in if this gets approved.   I never thought I'd say this but money is the least of our challenges and the folks involved are some very serious and philanthropic folks with a history of getting things done successfully.   Their generosity and foresight is inspiring, frankly.

What seems at issue are some of the things mentioned in the article; i.e. the timing and funding of the creek restoration which was designed by Mark Gutshall and LandStudies in conjunction with Gil and Jim's golf course plan down to 2-foot intervals and which is designed to protect the golf course from "100 year storms", which seem to be an annual event in recent years.   While the city is inevitably on the hook to do this EPA-mandated work, the timing is uncertain and other avenues are being explored to see how this work might get done on a more aggessive schedule but that's all I'm at liberty to talk about there at the moment.

Also seemingly at issue is the length of the lease but that could be negotiated by people of goodwill, I'm fairly certain.   I'd also address one point in the article concerning $125 green fees, which would not be the case for city residents and adjoining communities as ALL of the folks involved want to see this remain a public course serving the local community first and foremost.   

Yes, 14 million is quite significant, but as others have mentioned we're talking about the complete restoration/transformation of two eighteen hole golf courses on over 350 acres, the gutting and modernization of the two main historic buildings (no gargantuan golf courses here) a state-of-the art learning and practice facility with a junior course, and a new banquet center over on City Line avenue that could serve as a clubhouse for a tournament routing with a fairly incredible composite course designed by Jim and Gil that spans the entire property.   

As far as the Doak Scale, and what the number is today versus what it could be, both Gil and Jim are exceptionally high on the potential of the property.   Their plan is masterful and those who have looked at it have been excited at the prospects as well.   I'm sure others will judge the results if we ever get to that point but I'm confident in their opinions.

Why not just buy Torresdale-Frankford instead?   I'd put it this way; primarily for the same reason that the US Open went to Merion instead of Aronimink.   Just as there is only one golf course with the history of Merion, there is only one place in Philadelphia with the history of Cobb's Creek.   We'd all like to see that history preserved and celebrated and shined up for the next generation of golfers.   

T-F is a fine Donald Ross course that's been largely preserved (except for 3 holes affected by the expansion of Grant Avenue in the 1950s) but other than needing some serious chainsaw work, there really isn't a need to revamp it.   However, it could never host a large tournament in the city of Philly given the constraints of the property.   Cobb's could, and has, and a PGA tournament held at Cobb's could be worth $25 million annually to the city, although probably a bi-annual event is more likely.

Thanks again for your thoughts and I hope to play there someday with all of you GCA-ers, even Mike.    Seriously, all the best to you on this holiday weekend and thanks for the support and interest.

Mike

[Joe Bausch]

If you haven't (recently) visited the 'Cobb's blog' I keep, you'll find some nice additions.

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/focc/Friends_of_Cobbs_Creek/

[Kevin_D]

I had the great pleasure of playing Cobb's Creek while back in Philly this past weekend and thought I would share my thoughts.

It has been a LONG time since I played it - nearly 20 years.  I had pretty much forgotten most of the holes (not that I would have been paying attention back in high school).

My overall take was that while conditioning was, as you would expect, pretty terrible, and several holes are forgettable - there are also many holes that are very good, and a few that are simply GREAT.

Holes that I liked included #2, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, 13, 15, 17 and 18.

I really like the creek interaction on 3 and 5 (a little Merion-esque), and the split fairway on #5.

#7, 12 and 15 are all potentially world-class holes.  The slanted fairways and greens that feel like they are hanging on the edge of a cliff made the holes great fun to play.

I need to double back and see the renovation/restoration plans to see what is proposed, but overall I can't be more excited about this project.  It has the real potential to finally give one of the best golfing cities in the world a public venue it deserves.

A few pictures:
#3:


#5:


#7:


#12:


#15:


#15 approach:


#17:


And...some local flavor  :

[D_Malley]

However, it could never host a large tournament in the city of Philly given the constraints of the property.   Cobb's could, and has, and a PGA tournament held at Cobb's could be worth $25 million annually to the city, although probably a bi-annual event is more likely.


whether or not a renovated cobbs creek could host a PGA tournament is very much speculation.

[Joe Bausch]

However, it could never host a large tournament in the city of Philly given the constraints of the property.   Cobb's could, and has, and a PGA tournament held at Cobb's could be worth $25 million annually to the city, although probably a bi-annual event is more likely.


whether or not a renovated cobbs creek could host a PGA tournament is very much speculation.

The original course, yes, Dan, would have trouble hosting a large event.  Not enough room for people, etc.

But the composite golf course definitely could, which we call the ""Championship Course".  You should check it out below.  This is a clickable picture.

[mike_malone]

13 through 16 in new routing will wear you out. Walk to 16 tee will be a bit long

[Joe Bausch]

13 through 16 in new routing will wear you out. Walk to 16 tee will be a bit long

Expert golfers can handle it Mayday.  The walk that is.  Not sure how they'll score on the composite course.   

[D_Malley]

Joe,
I have seen the composite course drawing and have had a few discussions with Jim Wagner regarding the potential for major tournaments.

a large event would absolutely be possible, but a PGA tour event....... i think we need to wait and see.