...Father forgive me...

[T.J. Sturges]

...for I have returned to GCA.com.  It has been 16 months since my last post.  Good greif!

Just when you think you have this damn site out of your system, it sucks you back in!  After reviewing the Golf Magazine Top 100 courses in the world list, the section on page 136 entitled Overrated? really caught my attention.  This note within the article lists 11 courses in the World Top 100 that the architects on the panel rank significantly lower than the panel as a whole.  The list is a representation then of courses that the group of architects on the panel believe to be not as good as the rest of the distinguished (including REM III) judges perceive them to be.  Is this another indication that the architects (referred to as "experts" in this section of the article) are not able to distinguish themselves as it relates to identifying great architecture.  I know everyone is entitled to their own opionion, but note that the architects rated the following courses significantly lower than they appear on this year's list.  I'll list each course, and in parenthesis is it's actual ranking in the World Top 100, followed by the aggregate ranking given by the group of architects on the panel.

Sand Hills (11)     architects ranking = 31
Merion (East) (14)                           25
Pacific Dunes (19)                           76  (ouch!)
Kingston Heath (21)                         56
Prairie Dunes (23)                            41
Crystal Downs (24)                           53  (get serious!)
Fishers Island (29)                            79  (huh?)
Chicago (31)                                    54
Casa de Campo (34)                         63
Hirono (35)                                      -
New South Wales (43)                       98

Anyone want to explain this to me?

TS

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ted,
We need to get together soon and drink a whole bottle of scotch while discussing this.

[mike_malone]

 Mr.STURGES or is it Ms.
     
   It is "Father forgive them"--the beginning of what Jesus said to his father at his crucifixion--"for they know not what they do".


   The confession words are"Bless me father for i have sinned .It has been xxx number of weeks(hopefully) since my last confession"

     I am sure this kind of reply is what you missed about GCA.

     For your penance....

[Mike_Cirba]

Not coincidentally, almost all of those courses are on great sites, and the architects did little to touch them...they just FOUND the course.

Perhaps today's big earth movers are both jealous as well as uncertain why nobody built any containment mounds..

I'd also love to hear them describe how they would have routed Merion differently, or changed anything on those 126 acres.  

[John Foley]

Anyone else think this screams "Site Envy"?

Sure C&C built some magical or Doak created a masterpeice, but if i only had my chance at the property I would have made something special.

[T.J. Sturges]

Tommy,

Since I am a member at Tain, I insist we drink Glenmorangie Port Wood Finish (one of my personal favorites).  Good to hear from you man!  Gracing the covers of any national rags lately?

Mayday,

It is Mr. Sturges thank you.  And...I will admit I was a bit worn out by some of the less meaningful posts at this site...but I'm all for maintaining a sense of humor (that's why I play golf with Ran!).  And, sorry if I offended any catholics...I'm obviously not well versed in the confession doctrine.

Do you really think it is all about site envy?  Rees Jones had a pretty good site at Atlantic and he seemed to find a way to make that course look like it's been there for 10 minutes.  

TS

[mike_malone]

 I absolve you...i am somewhat qualified,I was in a seminary in high school.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Rees also had great sites at Nantucket, Ocean Forest, Sandpines...

So many of Fazio's sites are great...worthy of hundreds of Top 20 courses.

Art Hills at Bay Harbor...

[Mike_Cirba]

Ted;

The problem is that I'm sure Rees thinks it looks like it's been there forever.  

That's the problem.

These guys think the stuff they manufacture is what a golf course is SUPPOSED to look like.  

They really think that stuff looks good and works better!  

Believe it or not!!!  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Good to hear from you too Ted! I'll set down my Macallum's for the GlenMorangie anytime. Just like all great courses compared to these up-starts, I like to whet my thirst with a different mix from time to time, and only with LEGIT brands.

And the quote is classic about Atlantic. It would be even beter when commenting on Sandpines. A course that at one time was on its way to faux greatness.

If I may be so bold to borrow your line, "Rees Jones had a pretty good site at SANDPINES and he seemed to find a way to make that course look like HE had been there for 10 SECONDS.

[Joel_Stewart]

Sand Hills (11)     architects ranking = 31
Merion (East) (14)                           25
Pacific Dunes (19)                           76  (ouch!)
Kingston Heath (21)                         56
Prairie Dunes (23)                            41
Crystal Downs (24)                           53  (get serious!)
Fishers Island (29)                            79  (huh?)
Chicago (31)                                    54
Casa de Campo (34)                         63
Hirono (35)                                      -
New South Wales (43)                       98

Anyone want to explain this to me?

The reason is very few architects have actually played these courses and they probably did not vote for them on their ballots?  

As far as I can tell, Golf has the following architects on the panel,

Pete Dye
Tom Doak
Jack Nicklaus
Arthur Hills
Rees Jones
Gary Player
Donald Steel
Tom Weiskopf
Peter Jacobson

I'm willing to bet that Peter Jacobson is the only one to have played Pacific Dunes other than Tom Doak who is not eligable to vote on his own course.  Tom Doak may be the only one of these as well to have played Sand Hills?

Its all a matter of number of votes and their score.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

Ted;

The problem is that I'm sure Rees thinks it looks like it's been there forever.  

That's the problem.

These guys think the stuff they manufacture is what a golf course is SUPPOSED to look like.  

They really think that stuff looks good and works better!  

Believe it or not!!!  

In what context would you evaluate Twisted Dune ?

[Forrest Richardson]

I really do find the discussions about ratings entertaining. What is interesting in this one is that their is very little quantitative information, yet the discussion seems to strike conclusions very rapidly. Mike Cirba, for example, is quick to conclude what seems like a "them" versus "them" debate.

Personally and professionally, I don't think that Golf's "Overrated" sidebar has much of any scientific basis. I will assume, and I believe rightly so, that this was created to fill space in the magazine and offer another layer of rating that might make a few people feel better...sort of like awarding a "best of" category that re-orders the winners into a new set of finishers.

I was thankful that Joel posted a list of who he believes were the architects. This makes the discussion more interesting. But, without a a global comparison of architects — or a true random cross-section of architects — the opinions are much less meaningful and we can merely speculate.

[Paul_Turner]

Is Tom Doak the only one in the group to have seen Hirono?

[wsmorrison]

Ted Sturgis,

I do like the work of the those men of Tain.  How many of them are there-16?  What do you think about the 25 year old Glenmorangie Malaga Wood Finish?  The one year in in Malaga wine butts with the Moscatel grapes lends a distinctive and flavorful taste--a bit raisiny.  I do enjoy those visits to the distillery in the tranquil glen while staying in Dornoch and tasting the great varieties of their craft.

Regards,
Wayne

[Dave_Wilber]

I just wanna drink Whisky.

Ok..well, I just wanna drink with Tommy and Ted.


That's it. My life would be complete!!

[Mike_Cirba]

Forrest;

Yes, I threw out my somewhat inflammatory post largely because of the silliness and yes...somewhat obvious professional jealousy...of ranking Sand Hills and Pac Dunes...clearly among the best 5 courses built since 1950...somewhere way back in the pack.

The fact that both courses are more "found" and "routed" on great golfing properties than "created" or "architected", leads me to my obvious gross generality, so fire away.

Just tell me why I'm wrong!  

Patrick;

Any number of architects (Fazio at Shadow Creek, Struthers at Twisted Dune, Dye at Whistling Straits, Smyers at Blue Heron Pines East Doak at Texas Tech, etc.) are sometimes faced with trying to create something interesting, functional, and financially viable on generally poor property.

To answer you question specifically, if every architect took that situation and created something that is as natural looking and interesting as Archie Struthers did at Twisted Dune, then we'd all benefit.  His "psuedo links" and dunes look more natural to me than what Dye created at WS, for instance.  He ties in the playing areas to the surrounds, and that makes it interesting from a playability standpoint, as well as visually appealing.

However, TOO MANY modern architects just assume that they are going to move a lot of earth and CREATE and MANUFACTURE the golf course no matter the original natural attributes of the property.  It's why many architects designs are readily identifiable whether they are created in San Diego, Long Island, or Kansas.  They believe that shaping the course into some personal vision of what a golf course "should" look like is a better approach than trying to "find" and utilize the unique features of each site in creative ways.  And who can blame them?  Many of them are among the most popular and financially successfully architects working today!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

Let me state, for the record, that I, and the three fellows I played with liked Twisted Dune.  Several of the fellows indicated that the holes were memorable, and had character.
All of us thought it was a good golf course.

When was the last time you played Twisted Dune ?
How many times have you played it.

I'd like you to re-read what you posted above and tell me how Twisted Dune appears to be natural.

I liked Twisted Dune, I liked the holes, width of the fairways, and greens, but don't call it natural or natural looking.

It is a totally manufactured golf course and looks that way.
Again, I liked the golf course and think that Archie used his imagination in creating the holes, seperated by continuous artificial containment mounding.  

You can't say it looks natural and then claim that Atlantic doesn't look natural.  Atlantic looks far more natural then Twisted Dune.  You can't jump on the band wagon with Tommy Naccarato with respect to criticizing the man made pond at Sandpines, and not criticize the man made ponds at Twisted Dune.  That's either too convenient, or a loss of memory on your part.

I liked the holes around/near the pond at Twisted Dune, but,
I also liked the holes around/near the pond at Sandpines.

You can't complain about Rees building circular bunkers, and then not complain about the three large circular bunkers on the 12th hole at Twisted Dune.  That's inconsistent.

Mike, you're employing the same old double standard, and I doubt that you'll be able to bring yourself to admit it.

If you, Tommy and others are going to be critical, just make sure your critical eye isn't architect specific, and has universal standards, applied universally.

Archie Struthers designed and built a wonderful golf course.
He manufactured it out of nothing, moved alot of dirt to do so.
He seperated the holes through extensive artificial, inverted ice cream cone containment mounds. Yet, you've praise him and his work and bash Rees and his work.  
You can't have it both ways.

I know that you'll see the light...... eventually  

[Forrest Richardson]

Pat,

Are golf courses ever really natural? I beleive golf courses are man's invention for recreation, and while some may look natural, they are really paths through natural landscapes at the very best.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick;

Which course, built on a flat, sandy site, looks more natural and indigenous to the area?





Some here have argued that Sandpines was built on a great site.  For discussion purposes, I'll assume that it was as dead flat and featureless as Twisted Dune was prior to construction.

My major point is that if one is going to undertake mass earth-moving to bring life to a boring site (ala Shadow Creek), then care must be taken to "tie in" the playing areas out to the edges to complete the fantasy.  Which of the two pictures above seems to do that better?

I've played Twisted Dune several times.  I've never played Sandpines, but I could post pics of other courses should you need examples of ones I've played.  

A couple of others utilizing the "water" you mentioned...

[Mike_Cirba]

Forrest;

Would you say that there are degrees of "naturalness" even in man-made features?  Should architects try to make their features blend, or should they stand out from nature?

How would you otherwise explain the differences between these sets of pictures?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

Photos can be taken to make something look good or to make something look bad.  There can be a bias within the photographer reflected in the photos he's posted for display.
So, I'd rather not rely on photos in making critical evaluations, and certainly photos must be dismissed in evaluating playability.

I've been to Twisted Dune, Sandpines and Atlantic, so I'm not restricted to basing my opinion on staged or self serving photos.

I've viewed each of those courses at 360 degrees, not from a single or selected angle, and.... I've played each of those courses, recently, so they're fairly fresh in my mind.

Atlantic is far more natural looking than Twisted Dune,
But, what difference does it make, if the respective designers have created good golf courses.

And, I like the circular bunkers on # 12 at Twisted Dune.
I think that they serve a valueable architectural and strategic purpose on that hole.  If you're going to condemn circular bunkers in general, then you can't give those architects who enjoy most "favored nation status" a pass, when they design and build them.

With respect to the artificial or man made lakes, I find very little difference between Sandpines and Twisted Dune, and I happen to like all of the holes that border the water on both golf courses.  They all PLAY well and offer plenty of strategy and options.

Remember Mike, "Fair and Balanced" reporting.  

[Forrest Richardson]

Would you say that there are degrees of "naturalness" even in man-made features? 

Yes, of course. But "naturalness" is not "natural". There are different kinds of plastic, too. Some even look like leather or wood. I've seen wood floors that are really pictures laminated onto plastic — very realistic. Not real.

- - -

Should architects try to make their features blend, or should they stand out from nature?

Golf course architecture is mostly about the game. Making it fun and enjoyable. And a challenge. The beauty of the landscape and harmony is very important, but in most cases the attention to the game is what will be appreciated. Very often people try in life to re-create and make things look or taste natural — only to find that the most "natural" route is really just being yourself. I find many golf courses which try to work holes into the landscape very contrived — of course, this is a double-negative: Golf courses are contrived in the first place, so one contrived to appear as nature is perhaps trying way to much.

- - -

How would you otherwise explain the differences between these sets of pictures?

Both pictures look like golf. Just different golf. If they were orange juice, one is branded "NATURE VALLEY NATURAL TASTING ORGANIC" and the other is branded "GOOD OL' ORANGE JUICE". Depends on your lifestyle and upbringing which one you'll like more — or buy.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Forrest Richardson,

I've been saying this for years, but the cognoscente on GCA think otherwise, and who are we to dispute their genius ?

[Forrest Richardson]

"Cognoscente" is an excellent word...I think.

Remember:

"Great minds think differently."
      — Haley Richardson, age-8