[Patrick_Mucci]

That's my opinion of the perimeter slopes on the greens at Trump Doral.

If the greens and banks weren't sloped toward the water, where would the water go when it rains ?

And, it rains hard in Florida.

The greens at Trump Doral are very large, hence, there's no mandate to attack a hole location next to the water.
There's ample room to the safe side.

The course is eminently fair, hence, it seems like the media hyped the slopes and banks beyond normal.

Yes, balls will roll off the green, down the banks, to the water, just like they do at # 12 and # 15 at ANGC.

So what ?

With greens that large, you shouldn't flirt with the water unless you're incredibly skilled.
And if you do, you takes your chances.

Terrific Florida golf course.

Great bunkering with great sand.

Greens fast and firm after a day of rain.

Fairways with ample width.

Intimidating looking bunkers.

Fun course to play, but, you better know how to keep it low and you'd better know how to hit a draw.

More later.

Country Club of Florida, another terrific golf course is next.

[Bill_McBride]

Disclaimer:  I wasn't there.   But I think the hysteria this year was caused by the combination of new, very firm greens and brisk winds.  And the fact that no one ever claimed that most touring pros are geniuses.  They probably aren't morons but they think they have to attack every pin to keep up.  Hence the horror and the bloodbath.  

You are right about room to play away from the water.  The last time I played 18, neither my first nor second shot was within 50 yards of the water and my pitch onto the green wasn't within 30 feet of a back left pin.  Two putt bogey, mission accomplished.  

[PThomas]

I agree 100 % Patrick

classic example:  on the windy day - think it was Friday - Dustin Johnson came to 15 ..his ball hit the green then rolled off the green to the left into the water

a few minutes later someome (was it Kuchar?) played the correct shot that trickled down near the hole

wind can bring out better shotmaking and course management skills

[Joel_Stewart]

The course is eminently fair, hence, it seems like the media hyped the slopes and banks beyond normal.

Fun course to play, but, you better know how to keep it low and you'd better know how to hit a draw.

You contradict your self with these two sentences. 

The vast majority of people who play Doral do not know how to hit a draw on command or how to keep it low.

To me, Doral isn't for me or anyone else on this site.  Doral was built for the PGA tournament, corporate outings, conventions, tourists and families on vacation.  Donald Trump is going to do very well with Doral and I applaud him for his effort.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The course is eminently fair, hence, it seems like the media hyped the slopes and banks beyond normal.

Fun course to play, but, you better know how to keep it low and you'd better know how to hit a draw.

You contradict your self with these two sentences. 

Not at all.

There are different levels of golfers, but, if you want to score close to par, you need to know how to hit it low and hit it with a draw.

The vast majority of people who play Doral do not know how to hit a draw on command or how to keep it low.

The vast majority of people who play Doral do not score close to par or better

To me, Doral isn't for me or anyone else on this site. 

Not true, and how can you make that statement without ever having played the course ?

Doral was built for the PGA tournament, corporate outings, conventions, tourists and families on vacation. 

Now who's contradicting himself ?
"PGA Tournaments and tourists and families on vacation" ?

Donald Trump is going to do very well with Doral and I applaud him for his effort.

It's a HUGE complex.

Five courses, a famous Spa, new facilities.

He's spending a lot of money to create a terrific product with broad appeal.

[Steve Lapper]

Joel,

  Although I rue the day, I'll try to agree with Pat.  

  The "new" Blue is really a much more fun place to play than ever before. Yes, it's tough in the wind and having played it, I'd wholeheartedly think the majority of people frequenting GCA.com and Maxs Lounge would very much enjoy themselves during a round there. The design is impressive and remains significantly strategic across most every hole.  The Red and Gold courses should also be fun as Gil & Jim were tasked with those as well.

  I'd partially disagree with Pat on the banks. When there recently, I heard from the most knowledgable of sources, that the green-side banks aren't intended to be shaved for more than four days a year and are expected to be grown to much higher than collar-length going forward. That's the only solution needed IMHO.

Cheers,

S

[Adam_Messix]

When Pat's right, he's right...  the new Blue Monster at Doral is an impressive course. 

Joel, I came to Doral with reasonably low expectations and was pleasantly surprised by the amount of interest that Gil put into the course.  The subtle angles, the attractive and strategic bunkering, the risk/reward aspects, and the interesting green contouring makes for a course that most folks that frequent here and Max's will really like and probably love.  The course gives you plenty of room to play if you want to quietly bump it around, but gets tough if you are brave (or foolish) enough to attack. 

Is the Blue Monster tough.... absolutely!  It's always been that way, but it's imminently more interesting for the architecture aficionado and tough enough to handle the pros.  My guess is that the scores will be a fair amount lower, but it will present an interesting and fair test and that's all you can ask.   

[Joel_Stewart]

I never insinuated that the course isn't strategic or well built.  I mentioned this on another site and it made the moderator so mad he tossed me off but he thinks Gil is a god.  I don't think Mackenzie could have done a better job then what Gil did.  With that said, Gils insistence to keep the Dick Wilson look and design intent may have been a mistake. 

Pat, I have played the old Doral 3 times and stayed at the hotel twice so I am familiar with the property.  You are correct that I have not played the new course. 

Looking at it from a Golf Digest panelists view, its going to score extremely high in shot values, conditioning and resistance to scoring.  (Shot Values is the only category that receives double points.)  Now looking at the other categories, Aesthetics, Design Variety, Playability, Walkability I see it coming in low.  Walkability is ironic because it's dead flat but I doubt few walk it because of the heat.

Doral currently is 25th best in Florida by Golf Digest and 98th on Golfweeks top modern courses.  I just don't see it moving up that much.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joel,

It's a relatively easy course to walk.
There are some green to tee walks, but, they're not onerous.

Dick Wilson is an underrated architect, hence I don't find the retention of the Dick Wilson "look" and "design intent" to be a negative.
Remember, it is a FLAT piece of property, needing amendments to make it more visually pleasing.
And those elements typically come in the form of elevated foot pads for the greens and the bunkering that comes with it.
I especially liked the fairway bunkering on a flat piece of property

I liked the variety, the short holes and the long holes.  I loved # 11

I thought the green complexes presented incredible variety, so I don't understand that criticism in the context of dead flat south Florida

I also thought it was eminently playable.

As to raters and ratings, I can't speak to either.

Maybe the aesthetics were compromised by the structures erected for the tournament, which they were removing when I played it.

You can't slam a course because of the climate.
At Doral you get a great breeze.
Can the same be said of Streamsong.

Why would you not give Streamsong demerits for the heat, but, apply them to Doral ?

It's fun to play, but, scoring is a real challenge.
Easy to make Bogey, Pars and Birdies are harder to come by.

I also liked the contouring and slopes in the greens.
Not typical Florida.

I think you'd like it if you played it.

[Ryan Coles]

Disclaimer:  I wasn't there.   But I think the hysteria this year was caused by the combination of new, very firm greens and brisk winds.  And the fact that no one ever claimed that most touring pros are geniuses.  They probably aren't morons but they think they have to attack every pin to keep up.  Hence the horror and the bloodbath.  

You are right about room to play away from the water.  The last time I played 18, neither my first nor second shot was within 50 yards of the water and my pitch onto the green wasn't within 30 feet of a back left pin.  Two putt bogey, mission accomplished.  

I think this is condescending nonsense. It really does amuse me that handicap golfers think the pros can't play or manage their games correctly. The reason they're pros is largely due to the skill at managing their games around a variety of courses. Multiple countries, time zones grasses, weather etc. Anyone who thinks the pros aren't golfing geniuses has never been to the Open and watched these guys in the wind and rain. If you think they fire at every pin then you've been watching with your eyes closed.

Read a few books and chisel round a few ranked courses and people kid themselves that they're some sort of cerebral course strategist. The biggest factor separating levels of golfers is course management. The pros do it best.

In the grey sterile world of professional golf, if they speak out occasionally against a lousy course, good for them.

Lots of courses that we like to kid ourselves the pros couldn't handle the quirk or wouldn't be able to work out, they would tear to pieces.

A case in point at Rye this week, a young lad from my county, 70 70 69 69 in a decent wind after just one practice round. The kid doesn't appear a world beater by any means, but do you think he doesn't know how to manage his way round a course, even at his age and level?

[Mark Steffey]

glad to read that they have done work on the lodging as well as the course.  i was in miami for a conference maybe 3 years ago and had a couple hrs to kill before my flight -- so i drove over to doral to take a look.  i could of sworn that joey bishop and peter lawford were going to walk out of a bungalow at any moment!!

[Bill_McBride]

Disclaimer:  I wasn't there.   But I think the hysteria this year was caused by the combination of new, very firm greens and brisk winds.  And the fact that no one ever claimed that most touring pros are geniuses.  They probably aren't morons but they think they have to attack every pin to keep up.  Hence the horror and the bloodbath.  

You are right about room to play away from the water.  The last time I played 18, neither my first nor second shot was within 50 yards of the water and my pitch onto the green wasn't within 30 feet of a back left pin.  Two putt bogey, mission accomplished.  

I think this is condescending nonsense. It really does amuse me that handicap golfers think the pros can't play or manage their games correctly. The reason they're pros is largely due to the skill at managing their games around a variety of courses. Multiple countries, time zones grasses, weather etc. Anyone who thinks the pros aren't golfing geniuses has never been to the Open and watched these guys in the wind and rain. If you think they fire at every pin then you've been watching with your eyes closed.

Read a few books and chisel round a few ranked courses and people kid themselves that they're some sort of cerebral course strategist. The biggest factor separating levels of golfers is course management. The pros do it best.

In the grey sterile world of professional golf, if they speak out occasionally against a lousy course, good for them.

Lots of courses that we like to kid ourselves the pros couldn't handle the quirk or wouldn't be able to work out, they would tear to pieces.

A case in point at Rye this week, a young lad from my county, 70 70 69 69 in a decent wind after just one practice round. The kid doesn't appear a world beater by any means, but do you think he doesn't know how to manage his way round a course, even at his age and level?

Ryan, I've played Rye several times.  I only recall one water hazard and it is not directly adjacent to a green.  There is no way to compare the two courses.  

And to set the record straight, I may occasionally say something with which you disagree, but I will never say it in a condescending manner.

[Ryan Coles]

Bill, my point is that no one manages their way around a course better than the pros. Your post is contrary to this. In fact you openly argue the opposite. Not condescending to me by any means, but to suggest they fire at every pin without thinking is simply not the case imo. It gives a lofty impression of the pros as somehow being uncouth idiots compared to the strategists who understand architecture. Most of us can't hit the right side of the course, let alone the correct half of a fairway.

I'm not comparing Rye with Doral. I'm highlighting that decent players tend to decently plot their way around a course and know when to defend and attack regardless of the complexity and variety of the challenge. When they are presented with questions to which there is no answer, as with Friday at Doral, they tend to whinge.

Pros for some reason are regularly referred to with disdain on this DG and I'm not sure why, particularly when the criticism is often applied regarding the area they do best: strategy and course management.

[Tim_Weiman]

Ryan,

I don't know if pros are the best at course management. Maybe. But I have seen a lot of older guys who don't have much game left yet still have the course management thing going pretty well. They know their limitations and stick to a game plan.might be the pros equal on that score.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill, my point is that no one manages their way around a course better than the pros. Your post is contrary to this. In fact you openly argue the opposite. Not condescending to me by any means, but to suggest they fire at every pin without thinking is simply not the case imo. It gives a lofty impression of the pros as somehow being uncouth idiots compared to the strategists who understand architecture. Most of us can't hit the right side of the course, let alone the correct half of a fairway.

I'm not comparing Rye with Doral. I'm highlighting that decent players tend to decently plot their way around a course and know when to defend and attack regardless of the complexity and variety of the challenge. When they are presented with questions to which there is no answer, as with Friday at Doral, they tend to whinge.

Pros for some reason are regularly referred to with disdain on this DG and I'm not sure why, particularly when the criticism is often applied regarding the area they do best: strategy and course management.

The point I tried to make, inelegantly unfortunately, is that today's pros seem to feel they have to fire at pins because otherwise they won't compete with a hot putting opponent.   With the hard new greens, brisk winds and shaved banks, 113 balls ended up in water hazards.   Do you seriously think this resulted from decent course management?

We weren't discussing day in and day out course management, we were discussing the disaster at Doral.  

[Steve Lapper]

Bill, my point is that no one manages their way around a course better than the pros. Your post is contrary to this. In fact you openly argue the opposite. Not condescending to me by any means, but to suggest they fire at every pin without thinking is simply not the case imo. It gives a lofty impression of the pros as somehow being uncouth idiots compared to the strategists who understand architecture. Most of us can't hit the right side of the course, let alone the correct half of a fairway.

I'm not comparing Rye with Doral. I'm highlighting that decent players tend to decently plot their way around a course and know when to defend and attack regardless of the complexity and variety of the challenge. When they are presented with questions to which there is no answer, as with Friday at Doral, they tend to whinge.

Pros for some reason are regularly referred to with disdain on this DG and I'm not sure why, particularly when the criticism is often applied regarding the area they do best: strategy and course management.

The point I tried to make, inelegantly unfortunately, is that today's pros seem to feel they have to fire at pins because otherwise they won't compete with a hot putting opponent.   With the hard new greens, brisk winds and shaved banks, 113 balls ended up in water hazards.   Do you seriously think this resulted from decent course management.   

We weren't discussing day in and day out course management, we were discussing the disaster at Doral. 

   I completely agree with what Bill said above. I've played the course just 10 days ago and would 1000% agree that the pros made serious misjudgments in light of the wind and course conditions. What Ryan fails to understand is that the pros are the "highest and most consistent executors of the widest spectrum of available shots," little else. They can, better than any other level golfer, produce consistent swing repetitions and more frequently put the ball on the sweet spot of the club. I really don't believe they are the best at course management...and its not entirely or always their fault.

  Pros rely on caddies, daily evaluation of their game (i.e injuries, daily swing flaws, etc), course conditions, mental confidence and previous experience on the courses of the PGA Tour. The caddies map out the course with yardage and features, the swing coaches help iron out the moves, the thumb gets wetted and stuck in the air, and whatever part of any past-playing history on the hole in front of them all combine to dictate the strategy and hole management. In the case of this year's Doral, they had to toss out their previous playing experience, adjust for the wind and green firmness and reset their expectations for scoring......MOST OF THEM FAILED on that FRIDAY!! Additionally, the day's difficulty (like a US or British Open) deflated their collective mental confidence.

   The Tour is also partly to blame for not understanding the conditions and the probability and severity of the well-forecasted winds.

  The winds present that day relentlessly stiffened that course that day and shots (and the spin associated with the higher irons) had to be adjusted accordingly. Fact is they weren't and the course wasn't to blame, for those who did make all the right adjustments didn't find the water, or bogey and double-triple bogey trains that were otherwise so prevalent. What was required was creativity and adaptability....not high, IMO on a large majority of player's strength lists.

  I'd argue that other than tax deductions and private air charter deals, the pros aren't very adept at adjusting to new environments and variable condition changes. They function best when they can hunt flags, show off their talent for making shots, and play aggressively attacking the course's par. Other than 2.5 weeks a year (the PGA Championship the .5) they got to where they are by doing just that. At Doral a few weeks back on a windy Friday, they were forced out of their comfort zone.

Ryan,

   I welcome your attempt to refute the above. 

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Pat -

shifting gears just a bit, but you mentioned that you were also playing CC of Florida.  Since this was recently renovated/restored/updated how do you compare or analyze this work vs. Hanse's work at Doral? 

W

[Ryan Coles]

Bill, my point is that no one manages their way around a course better than the pros. Your post is contrary to this. In fact you openly argue the opposite. Not condescending to me by any means, but to suggest they fire at every pin without thinking is simply not the case imo. It gives a lofty impression of the pros as somehow being uncouth idiots compared to the strategists who understand architecture. Most of us can't hit the right side of the course, let alone the correct half of a fairway.

I'm not comparing Rye with Doral. I'm highlighting that decent players tend to decently plot their way around a course and know when to defend and attack regardless of the complexity and variety of the challenge. When they are presented with questions to which there is no answer, as with Friday at Doral, they tend to whinge.

Pros for some reason are regularly referred to with disdain on this DG and I'm not sure why, particularly when the criticism is often applied regarding the area they do best: strategy and course management.

The point I tried to make, inelegantly unfortunately, is that today's pros seem to feel they have to fire at pins because otherwise they won't compete with a hot putting opponent.   With the hard new greens, brisk winds and shaved banks, 113 balls ended up in water hazards.   Do you seriously think this resulted from decent course management?

We weren't discussing day in and day out course management, we were discussing the disaster at Doral.  

No Bill, I think the number of balls in the water were a result of a course becoming a nonsense in a wind. It's design is only suited to soft greens and calm conditions. The courses I consider to be great are enhanced by wind.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill, my point is that no one manages their way around a course better than the pros. Your post is contrary to this. In fact you openly argue the opposite. Not condescending to me by any means, but to suggest they fire at every pin without thinking is simply not the case imo. It gives a lofty impression of the pros as somehow being uncouth idiots compared to the strategists who understand architecture. Most of us can't hit the right side of the course, let alone the correct half of a fairway.

I'm not comparing Rye with Doral. I'm highlighting that decent players tend to decently plot their way around a course and know when to defend and attack regardless of the complexity and variety of the challenge. When they are presented with questions to which there is no answer, as with Friday at Doral, they tend to whinge.

Pros for some reason are regularly referred to with disdain on this DG and I'm not sure why, particularly when the criticism is often applied regarding the area they do best: strategy and course management.

The point I tried to make, inelegantly unfortunately, is that today's pros seem to feel they have to fire at pins because otherwise they won't compete with a hot putting opponent.   With the hard new greens, brisk winds and shaved banks, 113 balls ended up in water hazards.   Do you seriously think this resulted from decent course management?

We weren't discussing day in and day out course management, we were discussing the disaster at Doral.  

No Bill, I think the number of balls in the water were a result of a course becoming a nonsense in a wind. It's design is only suited to soft greens and calm conditions. The courses I consider to be great are enhanced by wind.

But wouldn't better course management have kept balls out of the water?   I told you how I played 18, right?   

[Ryan Coles]

Bill, my point is that no one manages their way around a course better than the pros. Your post is contrary to this. In fact you openly argue the opposite. Not condescending to me by any means, but to suggest they fire at every pin without thinking is simply not the case imo. It gives a lofty impression of the pros as somehow being uncouth idiots compared to the strategists who understand architecture. Most of us can't hit the right side of the course, let alone the correct half of a fairway.

I'm not comparing Rye with Doral. I'm highlighting that decent players tend to decently plot their way around a course and know when to defend and attack regardless of the complexity and variety of the challenge. When they are presented with questions to which there is no answer, as with Friday at Doral, they tend to whinge.

Pros for some reason are regularly referred to with disdain on this DG and I'm not sure why, particularly when the criticism is often applied regarding the area they do best: strategy and course management.

The point I tried to make, inelegantly unfortunately, is that today's pros seem to feel they have to fire at pins because otherwise they won't compete with a hot putting opponent.   With the hard new greens, brisk winds and shaved banks, 113 balls ended up in water hazards.   Do you seriously think this resulted from decent course management?

We weren't discussing day in and day out course management, we were discussing the disaster at Doral.  

No Bill, I think the number of balls in the water were a result of a course becoming a nonsense in a wind. It's design is only suited to soft greens and calm conditions. The courses I consider to be great are enhanced by wind.

But wouldn't better course management have kept balls out of the water?   I told you how I played 18, right?   

Sorry Bill but you're missing the point. IMO good, bad and indifferent often ended up in the water from what I saw.

[Ryan Coles]

Bill, my point is that no one manages their way around a course better than the pros. Your post is contrary to this. In fact you openly argue the opposite. Not condescending to me by any means, but to suggest they fire at every pin without thinking is simply not the case imo. It gives a lofty impression of the pros as somehow being uncouth idiots compared to the strategists who understand architecture. Most of us can't hit the right side of the course, let alone the correct half of a fairway.

I'm not comparing Rye with Doral. I'm highlighting that decent players tend to decently plot their way around a course and know when to defend and attack regardless of the complexity and variety of the challenge. When they are presented with questions to which there is no answer, as with Friday at Doral, they tend to whinge.

Pros for some reason are regularly referred to with disdain on this DG and I'm not sure why, particularly when the criticism is often applied regarding the area they do best: strategy and course management.

The point I tried to make, inelegantly unfortunately, is that today's pros seem to feel they have to fire at pins because otherwise they won't compete with a hot putting opponent.   With the hard new greens, brisk winds and shaved banks, 113 balls ended up in water hazards.   Do you seriously think this resulted from decent course management.   

We weren't discussing day in and day out course management, we were discussing the disaster at Doral. 

   I completely agree with what Bill said above. I've played the course just 10 days ago and would 1000% agree that the pros made serious misjudgments in light of the wind and course conditions. What Ryan fails to understand is that the pros are the "highest and most consistent executors of the widest spectrum of available shots," little else. They can, better than any other level golfer, produce consistent swing repetitions and more frequently put the ball on the sweet spot of the club. I really don't believe they are the best at course management...and its not entirely or always their fault.

  Pros rely on caddies, daily evaluation of their game (i.e injuries, daily swing flaws, etc), course conditions, mental confidence and previous experience on the courses of the PGA Tour. The caddies map out the course with yardage and features, the swing coaches help iron out the moves, the thumb gets wetted and stuck in the air, and whatever part of any past-playing history on the hole in front of them all combine to dictate the strategy and hole management. In the case of this year's Doral, they had to toss out their previous playing experience, adjust for the wind and green firmness and reset their expectations for scoring......MOST OF THEM FAILED on that FRIDAY!! Additionally, the day's difficulty (like a US or British Open) deflated their collective mental confidence.

   The Tour is also partly to blame for not understanding the conditions and the probability and severity of the well-forecasted winds.

  The winds present that day relentlessly stiffened that course that day and shots (and the spin associated with the higher irons) had to be adjusted accordingly. Fact is they weren't and the course wasn't to blame, for those who did make all the right adjustments didn't find the water, or bogey and double-triple bogey trains that were otherwise so prevalent. What was required was creativity and adaptability....not high, IMO on a large majority of player's strength lists.

  I'd argue that other than tax deductions and private air charter deals, the pros aren't very adept at adjusting to new environments and variable condition changes. They function best when they can hunt flags, show off their talent for making shots, and play aggressively attacking the course's par. Other than 2.5 weeks a year (the PGA Championship the .5) they got to where they are by doing just that. At Doral a few weeks back on a windy Friday, they were forced out of their comfort zone.

Ryan,

   I welcome your attempt to refute the above. 

I don't see much of any substance to refute other than crass generalisations and a failure to see that  lots of pros ply their trade outside of the pga tour.

Pro golfers may not be adept at many things, but playing golf is one thing they do rather well. Who manages their game and adapts to conditions better than they do? Chip and Chad on their annual bus tour around the highlands?

As for:

 "What Ryan fails to understand is that the pros are the "highest and most consistent executors of the widest spectrum of available shots," little else."

A simpler definition is that these are the guys who go round in the fewest number of strokes. "Little else" other than the object of the game. That much, I do understand.

They will score the lowest scores on any course you care to mention. As I said originally this is clearly written by someone who has never been to an Open and watched the guys tackle wind and rain on a true test of golf. Tell Darren Clarke at RSG that he couldn't manage his way around a course or Greg Norman and Padraig Harrington at Birkdale that they couldn't choose the correct strategy.

castigating the pros for not being able to play golf on any given conditions on any given course is a nonsense. If they can't, no one can.

It's fun to watch them find it difficult, some do it better than others. In my opinion, course management is a great separator in those who succeed and those who fail. I don't think it's a coincidence that the three best golfers (for my money) Hogan Nicklaus and Woods were also better at course management and strategy in comparison with their contemporaries.

[Bill_McBride]

With all due respect, Ryan, you have transmogrified this discussion from one about the Disaster at Doral to a somewhat off topic defense of the course management skills of great players in a universal sense.  No one is arguing that, we're talking about those 113 balls in the drink at one course during a recent few days. 

I'm headed for Austin next week so brushing up on my Texan.  How come you got a burr under your saddle, cowboy?   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat -

shifting gears just a bit, but you mentioned that you were also playing CC of Florida.  Since this was recently renovated/restored/updated how do you compare or analyze this work vs. Hanse's work at Doral? 

Wayne,

The "Mission Statements" were different and the terrain is different.

CC of Florida was a very pleasant surprise which I'll write about shortly.

I can't compare the work due to the intrinsic differences, but, I'll do my best to analyze the work

W

[Steve Lapper]

Ryan,

   You call the course" becoming nonsense in the wind, and it's design only suited to soft greens and calm conditions." You then tell me "I'm making crass generalizations."  Have you played the new Doral Blue? Ever? I suspect not.

    Are your reading comprehension skills up to snuff? Read closely, you'll note my post makes it clear that twice a year (British & US Opens) professionals have learned to play away from pins in order to de-risk higher scores. So as to make it clearer for you, that would indeed result in lower (read: lowest) scores possible. Yes, the elite professionals are better than the journeymen at course management, but when surprised and and inexperienced with a new course and in significant winds, their mental weaknesses are revealed. I never said amateurs could do it better, however, I do believe some, with stronger match-playing skills might thrive on such difficult conditions? A handful of your beloved pros recognized the severity of that day and adjusted accordingly.....most didn't and instead turned to griping and bitching (btw...they are quite good at this)!!

   The course isn't a links. So, like every non-links course, heavy wind conditions take their toll. Truth be told, the design isn't flawed, it just wasn't ready to be shaved tight and set up so severely. Of course you wouldn't know that unless you've played it (and spoken to the designers), but why let the facts get in the way of your professional opinion.

[Jim Nugent]

No Bill, I think the number of balls in the water were a result of a course becoming a nonsense in a wind. It's design is only suited to soft greens and calm conditions. The courses I consider to be great are enhanced by wind.

From what I read, the greens are considerably harder than they will be a year from today.  i.e. in future tournaments the greens will hold shots much better, and the course will be much easier to manage, even in heavy winds.

Also, conditions that second day were awful.  "I don't think I have played in conditions this difficult in America," said Graeme McDowell of the swirling winds on the Blue Monster course.  

So overall I think you're a bit harsh on the course, judging it on one unusual day that does not represent how it will play in the future.  Its biggest problem was that they played on it too soon.  From here on that should take care of itself.  

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