How does a 15 HCP play the 15th at Augusta?

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

I think the photo is deceptive.  The fairway up to the narrows is 50 yards wide - very generous. 

But, it's not just the fairway that you have to worry about.
The trees at the 300 mark are a problem

After the narrows it's more like 55 yards wide. 
The narrows is pretty generous at about 35 yards.

You call that generous for a 15 handicapper ?
You must play with some great sandbaggers

From the members tee it is about 220 yards to the first tree on the right. 
Does your short hitting 15 hit it further than that?  It's a bit uphill from the tee. 
It looks like there is an angle to anywhere down in the layup area from anywhere on the right half of the fairway if you drive it 220 yards. 
Not true.
Drives hit left or right of center begin to produce awkward angles for the second shot which produces even more awkward angles to approach a most difficult green

Does your short hitting 15 have a decent short game to achieve his 15?

I doubt that it's better than that of a PGA Tour Pro, and they have problems on the approach

Patrick,

It's fairly clear that MC was contrasting the width of 15 to the narrowness of 17.  I'm surprised you missed that. 

I didn't

The 15th is about twice as wide as #17 (or #7). 
Even the narrows at 15 is 50% wider than #17 or #7.

# 's 7 and 17 look and play very narrow.
17 probably less so today, although we'll see shortly.
Still # 15 presents it's problems to the golfer off the tee and on their second

How far does your 15 hcp drive the ball?  The numbers you mentioned previously of 334 and 282 yards seem a little ambitious. 
Those numbers are more than ambitious, they're absurd

A more modest 15 who could drive it 250 yards would be left with a 140 - 150 yard second, and could still see the right side of the layup area from most of the left side of the fairway.

What 15's drive it 250 ?
I don't know any.
But, if they could, they'd have to thread their second between the trees leaving them with a downhill 75-85 yard shot over water to a thin slice of a green pitched from high right to low left with water on three sides and a bunker and trouble on the right

When you played it as an elite golfer, which tees did you play and how far did you usually drive the ball? 

Initially, I played the Masters tees and never shot over 75.
As I got older and the course got longer, I played the members tees and never shot over 75.
What many don't understand is that the course is not in the same condition in Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan and Feb as it is in April.
Ditto Mother Nature and the temperatures

As to my driving distance, I was reasonably long considering my age until I wrecked my knee 2 years ago

Did you go for the green or lay up.

On 15 I layed up every time.

Yes, I think any player would find the wedge shot challenging under duress - or even in a friendly. 
How many people dunk balls at the 17th at Sawgrass from a flat tee at about this yardage even in casual games - a lot. 
But, a lot hit the green too.

NOT from a downhill lie without a tee

MC,

You are about to be sucked into the Mucci vortex of illogical debate where anything you write can and will be twisted to beat you down to moron status. 

You should know that "moron" status has to be earned, it can't be simply conveyed.

I'd be happy to have you point out any illogical statements I've made on this thread.
Your failure to do so will certainly cement your moron status

[Mark Bourgeois]

John Cook on Golf Channel: "The third shot into 15 is one of the hardest wedge shots on the planet.... It's frightening. It's one of those you think about all day."

[Jason Thurman]

Mark, what do you suppose the word "frightening" means to John Cook in the context of Augusta's 15th, and how do you think it relates to a 15 handicap?

[Carl Nichols]

Well, depends how you define lots...certainly he will hit more greens than say Las Colinas, Spyglass, Pebble or Stanford to name a few. We will have to disagree on this. Great aerial picture of 15 on golf.com today showing how wide the right part of 15 green is and how back water is not in play.

Thanks for posting this picture, M. In case anyone does not understand the nature of the hole this makes it abundantly clear: Penal hole. Now, the next time anyone asks what a hole of the Penal School looks like, all you have to do is show this hole.

Would a 260-yard par 4 with this green site be considered penal?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Carl, yes -- why wouldn't it be?

Jason, he said the lies were difficult for him, particularly from the right side of the fairway, and the water was never truly out of play, even after he carried it.

[Jason Thurman]

Mark, what do you think his goal is with that shot? Why is the water in play after he carries it?

And again, how does John Cook's perception of the hole relate to a 15 handicapper? You're the poster-boy for differentiating between how pros play the game and how the rest of us play. Are you now telling us that floggers' perceptions of a course are informative in understanding how a course plays for golfers? That seems contrary to your longtime philosophy.

[MClutterbuck]

John Cook on Golf Channel: "The third shot into 15 is one of the hardest wedge shots on the planet.... It's frightening. It's one of those you think about all day."

We are again talking about different things. Masters week is entirely different than the other 25 weeks of the year when the 15th green does play much softer and you can stick a wedge with practically no roll.

What I have been stating is that ANGC is not a tough course from tee to green for an amateur playing outside Masters conditions, and that putting is very difficult for non member amateurs, and thus it is difficult to score. Hitting greens in regulation is not tough. On Masters week, it is an entirely different story.

I think it was Phil Mickleson yesterday that said that with a soggy course, about 50 players could win the Masters. But if it plays firm and fast with "Masters speed" there is less than a dozen that can win. I think that statement can be extended to amateurs. With benign conditions and water on the greens, it is not tough. With dry firm conditions, it becomes very difficut.

A link below to Gil Hanse comments on ANGC that I agree with:

http://www.linksmagazine-digitalissues.com/linksmagazine/master_s_preview_hotlinks#pg27

[Mark Bourgeois]

I give up -- you're both right, for a 15 handicapper a wedge off a closely-mown, sidehill/downhill lie with a forced carry over water is a piece of cake. He should succeed 100/100 times.

[Tim_Weiman]

MClutterbuck,

We are at the point in this thread where all anyone is doing is repeating their previously stated opinions. So, I am reluctant to do the same.

However, as the person who initiated this thread let me add the following:

I have a close relationship with a major US company that does a fair amount of entertaining customers at Augusta. I won't mention the name because I don't think that is appropriate. But, this company has close ties to the club, including current and former CEO's as members.

Anyway, being a guest has always been a great pleasure and I have been treated very nicely, in part because I was a good customer, but also because I was known to be a golf architecture junkie. So, I have had several discussions with senior managers who have taken quite a few customers to play Augusta, typically mid handicappers. They describe the 15th hole as frustrating for their guests because it seems easy on television but plays so hard for them.

By contrast, the 12th hole doesn't really produce frustration despite being such a difficult shot.

Based on their feedback entertaining many guests, I don't agree that the 15th plays easy outside of Masters week.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tim,

It's nice you know people but you need to understand those people are clueless about this hole. Next time it comes up just send a link to this thread, where they will learn how to play the shot (just move the ball back a little) or how to play it strategically by putting over a bridge or hitting people on 17 tee.

Helpfully,

[MClutterbuck]

MClutterbuck,

We are at the point in this thread where all anyone is doing is repeating their previously stated opinions. So, I am reluctant to do the same.

However, as the person who initiated this thread let me add the following:

I have a close relationship with a major US company that does a fair amount of entertaining customers at Augusta. I won't mention the name because I don't think that is appropriate. But, this company has close ties to the club, including current and former CEO's as members.

Anyway, being a guest has always been a great pleasure and I have been treated very nicely, in part because I was a good customer, but also because I was known to be a golf architecture junkie. So, I have had several discussions with senior managers who have taken quite a few customers to play Augusta, typically mid handicappers. They describe the 15th hole as frustrating for their guests because it seems easy on television but plays so hard for them.

By contrast, the 12th hole doesn't really produce frustration despite being such a difficult shot.

Based on their feedback entertaining many guests, I don't agree that the 15th plays easy outside of Masters week.

Well, I must have been lucky. Hopefulyl I can visit again to have another opinion.    .

With respect to the other point, I agree it is getting repetitive but I did try to add to the discussion with Mickelson and Hanse opinions. Anyway, good thread.

[Tim_Weiman]

Mark B,

Believe me. These guys know Augusta intimately.

Actually, I found it kind of fascinating. I have been part of corporate entertaining on many occasions, both on the host and guest end, golf related and otherwise. But, the thought of being able to take customers to a place like Augusta is definitely pretty special.

At this company, there is a very select group of managers who get to enjoy this privilege. Very select. It is really fun just to have dinner with one of these guys and discuss his experiences. Pretty sweet perk to say the least.

I was just lucky to spend time with one that was really into golf architecture and being able to have architecture related discussions.

[Tim_Weiman]

MClutterbuck,

I do think the mark of a good thread is having a diversity of opinions discussed. This thread seems to have passed that test. Honestly, I would have been surprised if everyone agreed with my perspective.

It is interesting. If we discussed #12, probably everyone would have been in agreement and there may not have been anything to discuss!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark, what do you think his goal is with that shot?

To hit the green

Why is the water in play after he carries it?

Because thegreen is elevated and the land behind the green slopes toward the water and the grass behind the green is tightly mown.

If a skilled, veteran PGA Tour golfer says it's a frightening shot for his peers are you now going to claim it's a much easier shot for a lesser skilled golfer, a fifteen handicap ? f

And again, how does John Cook's perception of the hole relate to a 15 handicapper?

Let's start with common sense, something you seem to be lacking.

As a golfer's handicap goes from plus 8 to zero and then up to 36..
Shots, any shot, becomes more difficult, even the basic, most simplest of shots as the golfers handicap ascends.

Then, as the shot transitions from a basic or easy shot to a far more difficult shot, every golfer is less certain of their degree of success as the difficulty of the shot increases.

When you combine the deteriorating skill level of the golfer with the increasing difficulty of the shot, only a colossal moron wouldn't understand the degree of discomfort and uncertainty generated by that combination

You're the poster-boy for differentiating between how pros play the game and how the rest of us play. Are you now telling us that floggers' perceptions of a course are informative in understanding how a course plays for golfers? That seems contrary to your longtime philosophy.

Rather, it seems like you're saying that John Cook, Ben Hogan, Byron Nelson, Phil Rodgers, Jack Nicklaus, Gary Player and others have no clue as to how lesser golfers play the game.   I find that particularly interesting since Nicklaus taught his kids and grandkids how to play golf.
I guess they just went from 36+ handicaps to zero handicaps after one lesson

[MClutterbuck]

MClutterbuck,

I do think the mark of a good thread is having a diversity of opinions discussed. This thread seems to have passed that test. Honestly, I would have been surprised if everyone agreed with my perspective.

It is interesting. If we discussed #12, probably everyone would have been in agreement and there may not have been anything to discuss!

We might start another one, which are the 3 toughest holes (for amateurs non-Masters week) at ANGC in your mind? What was your handicap?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I give up -- you're both right, for a 15 handicapper a wedge off a closely-mown, sidehill/downhill lie with a forced carry over water is a piece of cake. He should succeed 100/100 times.

Mark,

Fret not, as both have long since achieved moron status.

As John Cook and other intelligent, decent to exceptional golfers have stated, that's an intimidating, difficult shot.

Why would you accept the word of hackers who claim to be able to play a shot clearly beyond their ability.

The notion that ANGC is an "easy" tee to green course for an amateur, and that only the greens make it difficult is absurd.
What's hard about the following greens 1st, 8th, 10th, 11th 12th, 17th and 18th ?
#'s 2, 3, 9, 15 are sloped but if you're underneath the hole, where's the overwhelming challenge ?
# 6 is largely dependent upon the tiers.  If you're on the proper tier it's not a difficult green.
5, 7, 13, 14 and 16 have their contours and slope, but again hole location and ball placement are critical.
But, you can only get to the proper placement with superior tee too green play.

I want to know how 2, 3, 4,5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, and 18 are easy tee to green holes.

For reference,  what are Jason's and MClutterbuck's handicaps and what's the biggest tournament that they've played in.

Lastly, do you think John Cook's extensive amateur and Professional experience qualifies him to recognize a difficult shot/lie ?

[Carl Nichols]

Carl, yes -- why wouldn't it be?

Jason, he said the lies were difficult for him, particularly from the right side of the fairway, and the water was never truly out of play, even after he carried it.

I guess it depends on your definition of penal.  It seems to me that a 260-yard par 4 with that greensite would result in relatively low average scores, at least as compared to other par 4s on the course--including because at that length you could choose one of several different ways to play it, depending on the strengths and weaknesses of your game.  Can a not-hard hole be penal?

[MClutterbuck]

I give up -- you're both right, for a 15 handicapper a wedge off a closely-mown, sidehill/downhill lie with a forced carry over water is a piece of cake. He should succeed 100/100 times.

Mark,

Fret not, as both have long since achieved moron status.

As John Cook and other intelligent, decent to exceptional golfers have stated, that's an intimidating, difficult shot.

Why would you accept the word of hackers who claim to be able to play a shot clearly beyond their ability.

The notion that ANGC is an "easy" tee to green course for an amateur, and that only the greens make it difficult is absurd.
What's hard about the following greens 1st, 8th, 10th, 11th 12th, 17th and 18th ?
#'s 2, 3, 9, 15 are sloped but if you're underneath the hole, where's the overwhelming challenge ?
# 6 is largely dependent upon the tiers.  If you're on the proper tier it's not a difficult green.
5, 7, 13, 14 and 16 have their contours and slope, but again hole location and ball placement are critical.
But, you can only get to the proper placement with superior tee too green play.

I want to know how 2, 3, 4,5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, and 18 are easy tee to green holes.

For reference,  what are Jason's and MClutterbuck's handicaps and what's the biggest tournament that they've played in.

Lastly, do you think John Cook's extensive amateur and Professional experience qualifies him to recognize a difficult shot/lie ?

Ok Pat, I tried to answer respectufully every time, but you are disrespectful. AND, you are soooo wrong about ANGC. You state it is tough tee to green and then call greens relatively easy by making the ABUSURD assumption that an Amateur can play to the appropriate tier and therefore putting is not that difficult? Amateurs will be on the wrong spot on greens most of the time. You state hitting any part of 15 green is tough and then go on to claim that for nearly all other greens you need to be on the exact spot of the green? And you state that #1 green is not difficult? And #6 is not difficult? I am sorry, but I do not think you know that course. #6 is one of the toughest greens on the course and has a ton more slope than 15.  I guess I was given fair warning that you do these kinds of things.

If I have played or not in a big tournament (I have not) is irrelevant. We are talking about a course on a regular week, not tournament conditions. A course I have played, not under Masters conditions, and believe is easier (NOT EASY) that many highly regarded courses.

I would bet that a very high percentage of amateurs will record similar amounts of shots than on their home courses outside the greens, and will have several more putts than on their home course. You dont have a clue about how difficult those greens are to putt, maybe because you see pros doing so well on them.

[Garland Bayley]

...The arrogance of so many good players as to how mid 'cappers play is extraordinary.  ...

I started to read the thread, and couldn't believe the ignorance of those posting to it.

Mark nailed it with his post.

[Patrick_Mucci]

...The arrogance of so many good players as to how mid 'cappers play is extraordinary.  ...

I started to read the thread, and couldn't believe the ignorance of those posting to it.

Mark nailed it with his post.

Garland,

The "ignorance" is all yours and Marks.

As Bill Parcels stated, "you are what your record says you are"

Or, in golf parlance, "you are what your handicap says you are", unless you're a sandbagger or ego handicap.

One's handicap tells you the basics of one's game, just like one's score indicates how you played on a given day.

Golf is a game with many facets.

Driving well but putting poorly, or putting well but striking it poorly are irrelevant.
It's the number at the end of the round that tells you how you fared playing golf that day.
The intricacies of the individual components are of no consequence.

It's the sum total of your efforts that's the sole determiner.

[Jason Thurman]

Carl, yes -- why wouldn't it be?

Jason, he said the lies were difficult for him, particularly from the right side of the fairway, and the water was never truly out of play, even after he carried it.

I guess it depends on your definition of penal.  It seems to me that a 260-yard par 4 with that greensite would result in relatively low average scores, at least as compared to other par 4s on the course--including because at that length you could choose one of several different ways to play it, depending on the strengths and weaknesses of your game.  Can a not-hard hole be penal?

Carl, a hole's design school doesn't necessarily have a lot to do with its difficulty. An easy hole can be penal in design philosophy. For instance, a 260 yard par 4 with water surrounding its fairway is philosophically penal by definition, though its scoring average might be low compared to many strategic 450 yard par 4s. The classic MacRaynor "Short" template holes are another example of a hole that is generally philosophically penal by definition in that the strategy is simply to hit the green or be punished, but also manageable for almost any player thanks to their short length. The term "penal" refers to the fact that it is designed to punish missed shots rather than encourage thoughtful and strategic play. Penal design tends to feature a lot of forced carries and hazards away from the playing corridors that force players to hit straight aerial shots or pay a price. Strategic design asks players to choose from multiple viable options an approach that gives them the best chance to score well.

As has been outlined in this thread, some people think 15 at Augusta does that while others think the requirement to get a ball off the ground at any point during the play of a hole automatically makes it penal. You know where I stand by now.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ok Pat, I tried to answer respectufully every time, but you are disrespectful.

M,

I don't consider "arrogance" to be related in any manner, shape or form to "respectful"

Your assessment of your abilities is lofty to the point of irrational and arrogant.

You did tell us that you were an 11-12 handicap, hence, we can reasonably conclude that your playing experience in significant tournaments is non-existant.   That you've never felt the pressure associated with MEDAL play in a significant competition.

As Bobby Jones stated, "there's golf and then there's tournament golf."
Those that have played both understand the significant difference in those rounds.

I'm going to list some of your statements, in chronological order and then comment on them

15 handicap members enjoy the course a ton! Most do not spin their wedges that much

You admit that 15 handicappers don't spin their ball, but, claim that the 30-50-80 yard shot to a green barely 17 yards deep, surrounded by water on three sides, from a downhill lie, is no big deal.  Yet, John Cook, one of the most experienced golfers in the world claims it's one of the most frightening shots their is.

Who should we believe ?
John Cook, or an 11-12 handicapper who's played there 3 times. ?

It is not difficult to hold the green. It does not play as firm as for the Masters.

How would you know ?

If someone played ANGC a week or two before the Masters or a week or two after the Masters, you're stating that it's not going to play the same
I'm not so sure that conditions in October, November, March and April are much different than during Masters week.?

From 180 out or so, the senior caddies convinced me this is one shot I did not want to try ever. Their take was that it is very tough for us to by precise yardage wise AND hit it really high AND stop the ball on that green. Whilst from 80-100 yards the shot to the right side of the green is not that tough. There is margin of error provided you are not short. If you have a half decent shot, you are not going to miss by 20 yards long.
[/i][/u]

It the caddies thought that your game was insufficient to handle the approach from 180, and you're a self admitted 11-12, why would anyone place an iota of confidence in a 15 to hit a green just 50 feet wide at it's mid-point from a downhill lie ?  A green fronted and backed by water.

Fact is dozens of 10-20 handicappers play 15 every day without too much trouble.

How do you know that's a "fact" ?
Did you stand there and watch golfers play the hole all day, then inquire of them as to their handicap ?
This is just another uninformed arrogant statement absent an iota of fact.

I insist Augusta National is much easier from tee to green than a ton of other courses that are perceived to be easier.

Which courses

You can not judge ANGC based on what we see on TV and then extrapolate that to 15 handicap players.

Isn't that what Jason did ?

Amateurs play greens that hold approaches really well.

So, it's your contention that the greens at ANGC are soft and that F&F conditions are not the seasonal conditions ?

And, you gleened this from how many visits to ANGC at what time of year ?

The issue for amateurs is the putting.

Neither me, nor the other amateurs I played with, Members and Guests, had any discernable problem putting the greens.
There are some dicey hole locations and some dicey greens, but, systemically, how did you have such a hard time when you declared that the greens were soft and held when you played them ?

For the pros it is to land the approach on the few places that will hold the ball, because the greens are so firm tournament week.
15 is not a problem.
Hitting greens in regulation is not that tough 26 weeks a year.

So, the course, irrespective of Mother Nature, just transforms itself over night, from a soft course where the greens hold everything, even non-spinning wedges, to a course that doesn't hold anything ?

Now you just told us that you couldn't hit # 15 from 180 yards.
And, you've told us that you hit your average drive 250.
So, something's wrong.
# 15 fairway at 180 yards sits well above the green, but, you couldn't get your ball high enough, even from an elevated lie, to stop it on the 15th green, even though you declared that the greens were soft and held everything.  How can that be possible ?

Could it be that you talk a better game than you play ?

Before I played ANGC I thought I would not break 90 and I would three putt 6 greens.
In fact, I was really close to 80 and three putted more than I expected.

Being close to 80 doesn't count.
You either shot in the 80's with those soft greens that held everything except your shot at # 15 from 180 yards from an elevated lie.

I bet most people on this thread would miss low in guessing the number of greens in regulation a 12 handicap would have at ANGC.
With cash on the line, I'll take the under.

From memory, I believe that between 200 and 220 from the middle of the green it is fairly flat.
A good drive gets you there if you are a medium to long hitter for a middle handicap player.

Wait a second.
The hole is 475 yards from the Members tees.
How many 15 handicaps hit the ball 275 to 255 ?
And, how about all of those trees which guard the left side of the fairway.
Now you're telling us that a 15 hits the ball 255-275 and right where they aim it ?

Close to the pond it is fairly flat.

It's NOT "fairly flat" it's sloped down toward the pond.
How else do you think that fairway drains when it rains ?

It is not tough to get there with a mid iron to a wedge depending on the drive.

Now you're telling us that a 15 handicap, will hit a drive and a wedge to get to a point 30-50-80 yards from the green ?
On a 475 yard hole, with trees blocking the entire left side ?

How many 15's hit driver-wedge from 395 yards to 445 yards ?
None that I know of.

I think this thread is based on Masters week TV. 15 is not tough to play unless you get silly.

How many 15's do you see playing ANGC during Masters week ?

It is not tough to stop a wedge on 15 unless you get silly on a short left pin.

But, you told us earlier that 15's don't have much spin on their ball with their wedges.
And, you told us that you couldn't hit and hold the green from 180 from a flatter lie, elevated far above the green.
# 15 green is only about 17 yards deep at it's mid-point.
And you don't think a 15 will have any problem hitting the green, despite John Cook's claim that it's one of the most frightening shots ?

I might be reading to much into the comments then, but I am understanding people think hitting a 80-130 yard wedge on a SLIGHT downhill lie to a green which is 76 to 82 feet deep, depending on the angle, is just too difficult for a 15 handicap.

It's not "a slight" downhill lie from 80-130.
Secondly, at the  mid-point of the green, it's only 51 feet deep, not 76 to 82 as you claim.
Third, the golfer sees the water in front and behind the green, with little else to provide a point of reference or definition.

Taking into account that this is the #2 handicap hole where one would expect a 15 handicap to bogey the hole on average, we should be thinking if it is unrealistic or not to get a bogey on this hole.

I'll bet a 15 on bogey every time he tees it up.  

With respect to the third shot itself, there is no water remotely close to the back right side of the green.

What about the front of the green ?
What about the bunker right of the green ?
What about the precipitous slope from right to left in the green ?
What about the slopes surrounding the green and where they lead ?

I add that greens most of the other 26 weeks of play do receive quite well. So just make sure not to be short and play a nice lofter wedge onto the green. The bogey is feasible even if you try a more heroic second shot and hit the pond. Or play it safe, and you can 3-putt your way to a bogey, or play 2 great puts and par.[/i][/u]

Why do you think the greens are soft and receive approaches so well ?
If that was the case, why didn't you go for the 15th green from 180 yards out from an elevated lie ?
Actions speak louder than words

As I have also mentioned previously, you can not argue this hole strategy for amateurs playing outside the Masters using examples of pros during Masters week. It is a different course.


The course is exactly the same, only the conditions change...... with Mother Nature's cooperation.

even if your drive is at the left side of the FW, you can punch it down to close to 100 yards. [/i][/u]

Really ?

And what angle of attack off of what lie would you now be presented with ?

You make the game sound so easy, hit it behind the trees, just punch it out, far down the right side of the fairway to 100 yards from the green.
You must be a plus 4 handicap.  Oh wait, I forgot, you're an 11-12

Just connecting the driver on the 1st tee with several members and guests watching is a monumental task

But, under the gun, from 30-50-80 yards out, from a downhill lie to a green barely 17 yards deep is...... duck soup.

A 10-15 handicapper is looking at par. He is perfectly happy to shoot for the safe part of the green, as caddies will quickly tell you. "That is a sucker pin position, aim for the right side of the green" was what my caddy told me. Stopping a 100-yard wedge on a 70 ft green was not tough.

But, earlier you told us that 15 handicaps don't spin their wedges.
Now, from a downhill lie, to a green just 17 yards deep, fronted and backed by water, this isn't a tough shot ? ? ?

How could John Cook be so misguided ?

He probably hasn't played there as often as you.

And, you, who hit your driver on average of 250, chickened out and refused to go for the green from 180 off a flat lie.

Something is rotten in Denmark and Augusta.

I can hit my average drive about 250 yards.

Yet you were afraid to go for the green from 180 yards off a flat lie from an elevated position ?

I averaged 6-7 three putt greens per round at ANGC.[/i][/u]

But, you told us that you almost broke 80.
So, if you hadn't had 6-7 three putts, you, an 11-12 handicap would have shot 74 or 75 ?
That's impressive.
Especially for an 11-12 handicap.

That is the killer part of the course.

With soft, non-F&F greens that you encountered, I don't know how you can say that.

I claimed the wedge is not one of the tougher shots for a 12 -15 handicap if he aims to the right part of the green.

We're well aware of the claim, and, we're well aware of John Cook's assessment of the shot.
In your opinion, who's a more reliable source in terms of playing # 15 ?

We are again talking about different things. Masters week is entirely different than the other 25 weeks of the year when the 15th green does play much softer and you can stick a wedge with practically no roll.

And yet, under these conditions, you, who hits his average drive 250, chickened out and wouldn't attempt to hit the green from 180 yards from a what you claim is a flat lie.  That doesn't add up.  Or, put another way, theory is oftenn undone by practice.

What I have been stating is that ANGC is not a tough course from tee to green for an amateur playing outside Masters conditions, and that putting is very difficult for non member amateurs, and thus it is difficult to score. Hitting greens in regulation is not tough. On Masters week, it is an entirely different story.

The above statement is so blatantly ignorant, so blatantly arrogant that it defies any logical explanation other than you talk a good game, but, don't play one.   Your failure to go for # 15 from 180 yards from a flat lie, from an elevated position, while claiming that the greens are soft and receptive undermines everything you've said.

I rest my case............ for the time being  

More to follow after dinner

[/quote]

[MClutterbuck]

Patrick, I disagree strongly with your statements and/or selective cutting and pasting out of context, as with the water back of the green question I was answering. One example of how wrong you are affecting several of your statements. The greens can be soft and fast. That is what I experienced. Soft and fast and, at least for me, severe slopes. Stopping a wedge on the green was easy, putting was not. I dont need to respond to the rest because anybody reading this thread will understand what I was stating, even if he strongly disagrees with me, which is fine. We are all entitled to our opinions and we all have different experiences. I understand the week before the Masters might be a lot tougher than say November. And we all have different abilities. A 180-210 yard shot from a flat lie to me is far tougher than an 80 yard shot from a downhill lie, with a much wider margin of error. So yes, I chickened out, but enjoyed playing the hole strategically and scored well.

[Jason Thurman]

Just a friendly reminder...

[David Lott]

My answer to the original question is . . .

in about 6 or 7 shorts on a average day.

Because good luck laying up. I sat for nearly an hour a few years ago at a practice round and watched the pros hit to the green from that downhill lie. It's a challenge for the pros, and would be really tough for the mid handicapper who does not face either that kind of slope or those tight lies very often (if ever.)

Would love to get a chance some day, but I think my window has passed.