[DMoriarty]

David,

Nobody seems to have trouble acknowledging #13 at Pine Valley is "strategic" on a course intended to be "penal" overall.

But, with the reverse situation at Augusta and #15, there sure is reluctance to do the same.

Any idea why?

Some idea.  But I've expressed it before.

[Tim_Weiman]

David,

Nobody seems to have trouble acknowledging #13 at Pine Valley is "strategic" on a course intended to be "penal" overall.

But, with the reverse situation at Augusta and #15, there sure is reluctance to do the same.

Any idea why?

Some idea.  But I've expressed it before.

I hear you.

[Josh Tarble]

I'm sorry I've already given this thread way too much of my time...but this is the dumbest discussion of all time.  

You know what lets a 15 handicap player avoid the pond?  A pitching wedge.  Maybe its a 9 iron.  Maybe they can fly a sand wedge there...seriously, what 15 hcp player can't hit an 80 shot within a ~40 yard target 70% of the time? I would even give most 15 hcps I know 85% chance of hitting that shot.  

If they can't play #15 at Augusta, how is this theoretical person going to play #12 at Augusta, #16 at Streamsong Red, #7 at Streamsong Blue., #4 at NGLA, #8 at Pebble Beach, #10 at Pine Valley or any number of wonderful golf holes.

What is the reasonable minimum shot you must ask a of a player?  a 1 yard carry?  a 15 yard carry?  Does every single shot have to have 50 options in which to play it?  

[MClutterbuck]

MClutterbuck,

To my knowledge, nobody has ever suggested Augusta doesn't accommodate amateurs. This thread, for example, is entirely focused on one hole, not Augusta in its entirety.

Also, even going back to GCAs predecessor -traditional golf.com - I don't remember anyone ever making such a suggestion.

I might be reading to much into the comments then, but I am understanding people think hitting a 80-130 yard wedge on a SLIGHT downhill lie to a green which is 76 to 82 feet deep, depending on the angle, is just too difficult for a 15 handicap. Or penal. Taking into account that this is the #2 handicap hole where one would expect a 15 handicap to bogey the hole on average, we should be thinking if it is unrealistic or not to get a bogey on this hole.  

With respect to the third shot itself, there is no water remotely close to the back right side of the green. I add that greens most of the other 26 weeks of play do receive quite well. So just make sure not to be short and play a nice lofter wedge onto the green. The bogey is feasible even if you try a more heroic second shot and hit the pond. Or play it safe, and you can 3-putt your way to a bogey, or play 2 great puts and par.

[BCowan]

''Now, at some point there was a decision to revise the original design. Those making the design decision could have built something like #16 at Firestone (by creating a pond but leaving a clear path around it). Instead, they elected to create a forced carry. ''

There was a creek running in front of the hole prior to 1949, the small pond maybe added an addition 20-30 yards of carry.  Also the creek went through to the other neighboring holes.  How can the original hole be called Strategic and now be Penal with a small pond?  You still had to carry the creek for your third shot when it was a creek.

How wide was the creek?

''Here's the C&W definitions (others like Doak and Shack have their own wordings):

Penal - design generally involves compulsory carries over hazards with no alternative course.''

Going by the C&W definitions which i am not impressed either, you fail to be consistent on them too!  It doesn't matter how wide a creek is, you still have to go over it???   See definition above and the waffling many are doing on this!!

So, are you trying to argue the original design for #15 was penal?

You were arguing that the original design wasn't penal and that now it is because the creek was converted into a tiny pond.  

     A hole can be strategic and have penal hazards.  If #15 was a par 4 it would be Penal.  It is a short par 5 that is hittable in two by some 15 handicaps.  #12 at Augusta is a Penal hole, after they took the fat part out of the green.

[Matthew Essig]

''Now, at some point there was a decision to revise the original design. Those making the design decision could have built something like #16 at Firestone (by creating a pond but leaving a clear path around it). Instead, they elected to create a forced carry. ''

There was a creek running in front of the hole prior to 1949, the small pond maybe added an addition 20-30 yards of carry.  Also the creek went through to the other neighboring holes.  How can the original hole be called Strategic and now be Penal with a small pond?  You still had to carry the creek for your third shot when it was a creek.

How wide was the creek?

''Here's the C&W definitions (others like Doak and Shack have their own wordings):

Penal - design generally involves compulsory carries over hazards with no alternative course.''

Going by the C&W definitions which i am not impressed either, you fail to be consistent on them too!  It doesn't matter how wide a creek is, you still have to go over it???   See definition above and the waffling many are doing on this!!

So, are you trying to argue the original design for #15 was penal?

Not as much. The green was larger and the surrounds had more room for error.

[Sven Nilsen]

''Now, at some point there was a decision to revise the original design. Those making the design decision could have built something like #16 at Firestone (by creating a pond but leaving a clear path around it). Instead, they elected to create a forced carry. ''

There was a creek running in front of the hole prior to 1949, the small pond maybe added an addition 20-30 yards of carry.  Also the creek went through to the other neighboring holes.  How can the original hole be called Strategic and now be Penal with a small pond?  You still had to carry the creek for your third shot when it was a creek.

How wide was the creek?

''Here's the C&W definitions (others like Doak and Shack have their own wordings):

Penal - design generally involves compulsory carries over hazards with no alternative course.''

Going by the C&W definitions which i am not impressed either, you fail to be consistent on them too!  It doesn't matter how wide a creek is, you still have to go over it???   See definition above and the waffling many are doing on this!!

The original design was Penal as well.  So is the first at TOC.

Let's move on.

[MClutterbuck]

I'm sorry I've already given this thread way too much of my time...but this is the dumbest discussion of all time.  

You know what lets a 15 handicap player avoid the pond?  A pitching wedge.  Maybe its a 9 iron.  Maybe they can fly a sand wedge there...seriously, what 15 hcp player can't hit an 80 shot within a ~40 yard target 70% of the time? I would even give most 15 hcps I know 85% chance of hitting that shot.  

If they can't play #15 at Augusta, how is this theoretical person going to play #12 at Augusta, #16 at Streamsong Red, #7 at Streamsong Blue., #4 at NGLA, #8 at Pebble Beach, #10 at Pine Valley or any number of wonderful golf holes.

What is the reasonable minimum shot you must ask a of a player?  a 1 yard carry?  a 15 yard carry?  Does every single shot have to have 50 options in which to play it?  

Agreed!

[DMoriarty]

or Putter²⁵

Never played the hole, but I bet I could get to the layup in Putter⁵.  But then I'd be sunk.  

_____________________________________

You know what lets a 15 handicap player avoid the pond?  A pitching wedge.  Maybe its a 9 iron.  Maybe they can fly a sand wedge there...seriously, what 15 hcp player can't hit an 80 shot within a ~40 yard target 70% of the time? I would even give most 15 hcps I know 85% chance of hitting that shot.  

Jason,  While that all may be true, none of it has anything to do with whether it is strategic design for the 15 handicapper.  That is the distinction you and many others seem to be missing.  

Does every single shot have to have 50 options in which to play it?  

Nope.  But if you want to call it strategic design for the 15 handicap, then there has to be a reasonable way to play around a pond fronting the green, perhaps at the possible cost of a stroke or two.

[Sean_A]

Jason,

You can hem and haw all you like about all the possibilities between the tee and the pond.   But none of your "strategic options" get the 15 handicapper around that pond.  

Except for the silliness suggested by Jeff, there is no avoiding the pond.

David,

Nobody seems to have trouble acknowledging #13 at Pine Valley is "strategic" on a course intended to be "penal" overall.

But, with the reverse situation at Augusta and #15, there sure is reluctance to do the same.

Any idea why?

Bloody minded?  

Anyway, the 15 capper plays the 15th the same way the pro does.  Whack a drive, decide if its good enough to go for the green in two, then carry on.  

Not that I agree with your assessment of the 15th (a forced water carry is a forced water carry in terms of falling toward the penal end of the continuum), but do you think there are other Augusta holes which have had their intent so profoundly altered, except by bunkers rather than water?

Ciao

[BCowan]

We get it, your definition of Penal is the issue!!!  The hole goes from Strategic pre 1949, to Penal post 1949.  Doesn't make sense

[BCowan]

''Not as much. The green was larger and the surrounds had more room for error.''

  Matt,

   We are going by the C&W definition of Penal.  any forced carry is Penal and no other definitions apply.  You gotta play by their rules.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sean:

7 comes to mind.

Sven

[Josh Tarble]

David,
Believe you are addressing the wrong person.

[BCowan]

Sven,

''The original design was Penal as well''

Totally disagree, the hole would have to of been a par 4, for it to have been Penal.  The C&W definition is too simplistic and doesn't tell the whole story.  

I believe the right side of the fairway on #15 is the ideal spot of the tee and there was a speed slot there as well.  Another strategic option pre/ post 1949, and pre hottie and the blowfish.  

[BHoover]

What 15 handicapper can't hit a ball over a pond with a wedge? I don't know any legit 15 hdcpr who can't. So what's the big deal?

[Tim_Weiman]

I'm sorry I've already given this thread way too much of my time...but this is the dumbest discussion of all time.  

You know what lets a 15 handicap player avoid the pond?  A pitching wedge.  Maybe its a 9 iron.  Maybe they can fly a sand wedge there...seriously, what 15 hcp player can't hit an 80 shot within a ~40 yard target 70% of the time? I would even give most 15 hcps I know 85% chance of hitting that shot.  

If they can't play #15 at Augusta, how is this theoretical person going to play #12 at Augusta, #16 at Streamsong Red, #7 at Streamsong Blue., #4 at NGLA, #8 at Pebble Beach, #10 at Pine Valley or any number of wonderful golf holes.

What is the reasonable minimum shot you must ask a of a player?  a 1 yard carry?  a 15 yard carry?  Does every single shot have to have 50 options in which to play it?  

Josh,

Our 15 isn't going to hit the green and will probably struggle on most of the holes you have mentioned. I don't see how they relate to our discussion of Augusta 15. The 12th hole, for example, is a completely different animal.

As for your statistics, I just think you are way off and that is probably why you have difficulty understanding the discussion.

[Tim_Weiman]

What 15 handicapper can't hit a ball over a pond with a wedge? I don't know any legit 15 hdcpr who can't. So what's the big deal?

Brian,

You have posed another straw man. We are talking about a specific hole and specific topography.

As I mentioned earlier, circa 1980 even players in the Masters had difficulty with that shot. That point has just become obscured due to technology encouraging nearly everyone in the tournament to go for the green in two.

[Sven Nilsen]

Tim.

Sven,

''The original design was Penal as well''

Totally disagree, the hole would have to of been a par 4, for it to have been Penal.  The C&W definition is too simplistic and doesn't tell the whole story.  

I believe the right side of the fairway on #15 is the ideal spot of the tee and there was a speed slot there as well.  Another strategic option pre/ post 1949, and pre hottie and the blowfish.  

If we disagree because your personal definition does not match the one espoused by C&W, I'm fine with it.  

Whether its a par 3, par 4 or par 5 has nothing to do with it.

[Kevin_D]

We can settle this thread pretty easily. I'm a 13 handicap, which I think is close enough.

All someone needs to do is bring me to Augusta, and I will gladly report back on how I play the 15th hole. 

[Tim_Weiman]

We can settle this thread pretty easily. I'm a 13 handicap, which I think is close enough.

All someone needs to do is bring me to Augusta, and I will gladly report back on how I play the 15th hole. 

Kevin,

Are you free tomorrow?

[Kevin_D]

We can settle this thread pretty easily. I'm a 13 handicap, which I think is close enough.

All someone needs to do is bring me to Augusta, and I will gladly report back on how I play the 15th hole. 

Kevin,

Are you free tomorrow?

FURIOUSLY CANCELING MEETINGS...

 

[Sven Nilsen]

Kevin:

There are going to be "practice rounds" in a couple of weeks.  Just follow this guy's lead:

[Kevin_D]

Kevin:

There are going to be "practice rounds" in a couple of weeks.  Just follow this guy's lead:

Sven,

I didn't give you permission to use that picture of me. Expect a letter from my attorneys.

[Sven Nilsen]

Kevin:

Nice hat.

As an aside, I love the body language on the guys in the cart.  You can almost hear the WTF.

Sven

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