[Tim_Weiman]

MClutterbuck:

Actually, IMO, you can't really see this hole on television. So, someone who just watched the Masters would probably not even think of the question.

Spending lots of time around the 80-100 mark is what motivated me.

[Chip Gaskins]

I was about a 6-7 handicap when I played in 2009....though I was playing to a 15 that day.

Playing the members tees I hit a drive in the fairway and had 215-220 to the center.  I hit a hybrid of some sort to pin high to the right of the green side bunker (not the place to miss).  Its really just dead straight off the tee.  Most can't hit it far enough to bounce it off the hills on the right.

The Masters tees are SO far back on most holes it is astonishing.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I am sorry if this has been mentioned, but the bunker right wasn't there originally was it?   Perhaps the higher handicap player used to have a more realistic bail out option over there in the past.  

Yeah, it's somewhere in the back pages, along with mention of the creek being skinnier on that side.

Anyway, to anyone who says a non-negotiable forced carry over water is not penal, may I suggest Geoff Shackelford's Grounds for Golf? Interestingly, ANGC's back nine has three downhill second shots and they could be said to represent each of the three main schools:
10 strategic
11 heroic
15 penal

Charlie, I can't recall if it holds for today's course but in 1932 the right side of the *playing corridor* about 220-225 from the green was relatively flat. From The Masters tee that meant a ~240 drive.

[MClutterbuck]

I am sorry if this has been mentioned, but the bunker right wasn't there originally was it?   Perhaps the higher handicap player used to have a more realistic bail out option over there in the past.  

Yeah, it's somewhere in the back pages, along with mention of the creek being skinnier on that side.

Anyway, to anyone who says a non-negotiable forced carry over water is not penal, may I suggest Geoff Shackelford's Grounds for Golf? Interestingly, ANGC's back nine has three downhill second shots and they could be said to represent each of the three main schools:
10 strategic
11 heroic
15 penal

Charlie, I can't recall if it holds for today's course but in 1932 the right side of the *playing corridor* about 220-225 from the green was relatively flat. From The Masters tee that meant a ~240 drive.

From memory, I believe it is relatively flat from 180 to 220 from center of green. I would lay up from there anyway.

11is a HUGE difference from Masters to Member tees. 105 yards in fact. With a decent drive down hill, it is not a heroic second shot. I believe I hit a 9 iron onto the green.

[MClutterbuck]

MClutterbuck:

Actually, IMO, you can't really see this hole on television. So, someone who just watched the Masters would probably not even think of the question.

Spending lots of time around the 80-100 mark is what motivated me.

Same thing, you can not compare tournament week to any other week for members. It is not tough to stop a wedge on 15 unless you get silly on a short left pin.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

I can't back it up with actual data, but suspect the water behind is more of an issue for our 15 than the Masters type player. Isn't hitting the ball thin a real risk for the mid handicapper?

Tim,

Agreed.

It's easy to blade a wedge with a downhill lie, it's easy to look up prematurely, and a bladed wedge from 30-50 yards will definitely find the water on # 16 if the hole is cut left.

[Tim_Weiman]

I am sorry if this has been mentioned, but the bunker right wasn't there originally was it?   Perhaps the higher handicap player used to have a more realistic bail out option over there in the past.  

Yeah, it's somewhere in the back pages, along with mention of the creek being skinnier on that side.

Anyway, to anyone who says a non-negotiable forced carry over water is not penal, may I suggest Geoff Shackelford's Grounds for Golf? Interestingly, ANGC's back nine has three downhill second shots and they could be said to represent each of the three main schools:
10 strategic
11 heroic
15 penal

Charlie, I can't recall if it holds for today's course but in 1932 the right side of the *playing corridor* about 220-225 from the green was relatively flat. From The Masters tee that meant a ~240 drive.

Mark,

I agree with your comments. As a whole Augusta is not penal, but the shot we are discussing sure is for a 15 HCP. Forced carry from a downhill lie seems to me to fit the definition. For the Masters level player, the hole used to be strategic, I think, but it now strikes me as heroic.

[BCowan]

Tim,

   I think 12 is penal.

   I think 15 is strategic/heroic.

[Mark Bourgeois]

BCowan and Tim,

I have to ask, what definition of "heroic" are you using to describe a non-negotiable forced carry over water -- and how do you distinguish that definition from "penal"?

Mark

[jeffwarne]

BCowan and Tim,

I have to ask, what definition of "heroic" are you using to describe a non-negotiable forced carry over water -- and how do you distinguish that definition from "penal"?

Mark

Penal
hitting it 10 yards out of the fairway and losing the ball (example Portrush )

Heroic
carrying over a 30 yard wide pond/creek
though typically it's a bit more heroic if you do it from 240 yards rather than 80

[Mark Bourgeois]

Jeff,

Well, you can hit the ball 1 yard off the fairway of ANGC 15 and lose your ball. No recovery there, either. *plane crash*

[BCowan]

Mark,

Jeff pretty much summed it up well.  

Penal is more or less having to hit an 8-6 iron into a green with no bailout and the green has a heater under it.  

(For the record, i haven't played Augusta)

[Bill_McBride]

Jeff,

Well, you can hit the ball 1 yard off the fairway of ANGC 15 and lose your ball. No recovery there, either. *plane crash*

Is that straight ahead into the pond?   

Having never been to ANGC  I have to ask - can you play your second out to the right and have a flatter lie, or is the entire fairway 100 yards in steeply downhill?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Mark,

Jeff pretty much summed it up well.  

Penal is more or less having to hit an 8-6 iron into a green with no bailout and the green has a heater under it.  

(For the record, i haven't played Augusta)

So a non-negotiable forced carry over water is not penal if I'm hitting more than a 6-iron or less than an 8-iron. Got it.

[BCowan]

Mark,

Jeff pretty much summed it up well.  

Penal is more or less having to hit an 8-6 iron into a green with no bailout and the green has a heater under it.  

(For the record, i haven't played Augusta)

So a non-negotiable forced carry over water is not penal if I'm hitting more than a 6-iron or less than an 8-iron. Got it.

   No, you are a little fuzzy.  An 80 yard shot over water isn't penal (even on a down-slope) IMHO.  One that is 150 yards is...

   I hope someone isn't hitting a 6 iron from 80 yards...

[Mark Bourgeois]

My bad. So if you inch the ball up until it's 80 yards or less then attempt the non-negotiable forced carry over water it's "heroic." Alternately, if you go for it from 150+ yards it's "penal."

[DMoriarty]

Maybe it is about time for Bob Crosby to do a refresher thread on what "penal" means in the context of golf course architecture.   People seem seem to be throwing these terms around with absolutely no idea of what they mean.

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,

Well, you can hit the ball 1 yard off the fairway of ANGC 15 and lose your ball. No recovery there, either. *plane crash*

Where exactly at ANGC can you hit your ball 1 yard out of the fairway, and lose your ball.

[BCowan]

Mark,

No, you are still fuzzy in my view.  150 yards is the tee shot at #12.  Heroic would be the aspect of going for the green in two at #15.  Strategic would be laying up and plotting.  Hence I view the hole as Strategic with a lot of Heroic in it.  80 yards non-negotiable, lets not dumb down golf arch anymore than we have...

I know you are going to go by the strict Heroic taking off a bit of the hazard to gain a shorter club into the hole definition.  

I think you aren't giving 15 handi's enough credit, ''inching up''....

[Tim_Weiman]

Maybe it is about time for Bob Crosby to do a refresher thread on what "penal" means in the context of golf course architecture.   People seem seem to be throwing these terms around with absolutely no idea of what they mean.

Dave,

Someone has written the classic definitions, but my books aren't handy. Was it Geoffrey Cornish?

[Sven Nilsen]

Here's the C&W definitions (others like Doak and Shack have their own wordings):

Penal - design generally involves compulsory carries over hazards with no alternative course.

Strategic - design provides alternative routes so that the player is not required to carry the hazard.  It also provides a premium for those who dare the hazard and succeed.

Heroic - design is a blend of strategic and penal.  Hazards are placed on the diagonal so that the more a player carries the greater the reward.  This is sometimes referred to as the "bite off" theory."

[jeffwarne]

Here's the C&W definitions (others like Doak and Shack have their own wordings):

Penal - design generally involves compulsory carries over hazards with no alternative course.

Strategic - design provides alternative routes so that the player is not required to carry the hazard.  It also provides a premium for those who dare the hazard and succeed.

Heroic - design is a blend of strategic and penal.  Hazards are placed on the diagonal so that the more a player carries the greater the reward.  This is sometimes referred to as the "bite off" theory."

Un heroic
Considers his options from 80 yards

[Tim_Weiman]

Here's the C&W definitions (others like Doak and Shack have their own wordings):

Penal - design generally involves compulsory carries over hazards with no alternative course.

Strategic - design provides alternative routes so that the player is not required to carry the hazard.  It also provides a premium for those who dare the hazard and succeed.

Heroic - design is a blend of strategic and penal.  Hazards are placed on the diagonal so that the more a player carries the greater the reward.  This is sometimes referred to as the "bite off" theory."

Un heroic
Considers his options from 80 yards

Jeff,

Very good. I always knew starting this thread would be a good idea. I just didn't how good. Well done!

Sven,

Thanks. I guess my recollection wasn't too bad.

[Jason Thurman]

Jeff, I actually laughed out loud a little there.

This thread has now hit eight pages and discussed at least eight different general strategies for how the hole can be played by an average player. Someone else will have to explain to me how that equates to a hole that isn't "strategic," regardless of whose definition you use. I was always partial to Kyle Harris' definition personally.

[Patrick_Mucci]

MClutterbuck:

Actually, IMO, you can't really see this hole on television. So, someone who just watched the Masters would probably not even think of the question.

Spending lots of time around the 80-100 mark is what motivated me.

Same thing, you can not compare tournament week to any other week for members.

It is not tough to stop a wedge on 15 unless you get silly on a short left pin.

Remind me, what's your handicap again ?

From 30-50-80-100 yards, from a downhill lie to that narrow green, is a tough shot.

Especially with water and a steep bank fronting the green.

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