[Peter Pallotta]

Hey, all you guys with the jibes at 15 handicappers, let me tell you something. I'm not sure I could beat a 5-8 handicapper on any given Sunday, but the reason I'm not sure is that I've played many a round paired up with guys who said they were 5s, 8s, 10s,....and yet I've yet to witness any of them ever break 85!  (I must have caught every single one of them on a bad day!) So, I suppose that as a 15 (at least) I should get my butt kicked badly by any 5 or 8 or 10....but I've yet to actually play with one, apparently, so I don't know for sure!  

[Mike_Young]

PETER,
I'M NOT TAKING JIBES AT A 15 HANDICAPPER...I just think the question is a weird question...in simple terms a 15 handicapper will shoot 87 at ANGC.  I would wager the scores for the holes would fluctuate widely if he played it three or four times at 87.  He has no clue how he would play the hole....JMO

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike - I'm just having some fun, taking my own shot at the "8s" of the world. You're probably right that if I played the hole 10 times I'd probably make 10 different scores on it!

Peter

[Mike_Young]

Peter,
Anything I do on this site is strictly for fun...cheers...

[Tom_Doak]

I hit two balls in the water there the first time I played the hole, but I was a 9 handicap then, not a 15.  It's a pretty steep downhill lie.

[Mike Schott]

As a 15+, probably closer to a 19 these days, the issue I have is a lack of consistency. I can probably hit a decent drive and 3 hybrid lay up to a 90 yard wedge. I don't know how well I'll hit that wedge shot but even if I do clear the water there's a good chance I'm either going to miss the green or be on the wrong side of the pin. So at best bogey, at worst 3 in the water, 5 on the green and 2-3 putts.

[Tim_Weiman]

PETER,
I'M NOT TAKING JIBES AT A 15 HANDICAPPER...I just think the question is a weird question...in simple terms a 15 handicapper will shoot 87 at ANGC.  I would wager the scores for the holes would fluctuate widely if he played it three or four times at 87.  He has no clue how he would play the hole....JMO

Mike,

I'm curious. Would it be "weird" to ask how a 15 HCP would play #8 at Pebble Beach?

[Mike_Young]

PETER,
I'M NOT TAKING JIBES AT A 15 HANDICAPPER...I just think the question is a weird question...in simple terms a 15 handicapper will shoot 87 at ANGC.  I would wager the scores for the holes would fluctuate widely if he played it three or four times at 87.  He has no clue how he would play the hole....JMO

Mike,

I'm curious. Would it be "weird" to ask how a 15 HCP would play #8 at Pebble Beach?

Tim,
Yes..to me it's a weird question...I mean first he tees the ball and can probably be confident of his dominant slice or hook path but he has no clue if he hits it with a 20 yard lateral move to the hook or slice side or a 30 yard...from there one would hope he would play out to the left but many things could go wrong on that shot...so my bet is most of us would play the hole differently almost each time we played it...that's just golf...

[Tim_Weiman]

Mike,

I'm thinking about strategy for the 15 HCP not his actual execution. At Pebble, assuming he has hit a decent drive and actually faces a decision, our 15 might decide to have a go at the green for the fun of it or decide to bail out left hoping to avoid a big blow up.

When he plays his second shot he still might slice an intended bail out into the water, but at least he has the bail out option.

At Augusta I am just not sure this is true. Where does he attempt to hit his second shot and have a reasonable chance of success?

[MClutterbuck]

I think the reason you raised - a lay up to a downhill lie - is why Tom Doak gives it a "?" In the CG.

It's a valid question, but ANGC is a made-for-the-telly golf course now... It is all about the Masters. Location of members' tees aside I can't see the overlords giving one hoot about the 15 h'cap member and his twice yearly game.

My opinion anyway!

Greg

15 handicap members enjoy the course a ton! Most do not spin their wedges that much, and as long as you are not way long, the green on the right side will hold the approaches. I think there are much tougher holes for the 15 handicap player. 1, 4 played at 170yards, 5, 7, 10, 12, 18.

[Charlie_Bell]

For someone who hasn't played it lately...  and who's too lazy to do some research:   How far from the green is the last more or less level lie?  Or is the entire hole downhill?

[Tim_Weiman]

MClutterbuck:

I certainly didn't mean to suggest 15 HCP doesn't enjoy playing Augusta. Of course they do. A third shot on 15 is just my choice for the scariest shot on the course. #12 tee shot is tough, but at least you get to hit it from a flat lie and from a tee. Some of the others you mentioned are tough shots, but just don't strike the same fear, at least not for me.

[Tim_Weiman]

For someone who hasn't played it lately...  and who's too lazy to do some research:   How far from the green is the last more or less level lie?  Or is the entire hole downhill?

Charlie,

I've had the same thought, but don't know the exact answer. Guessing there are 140-150 yard shots that are easier than 80-90 yards.

[Tom_Doak]

One of my favorite Pete Dye quotes:  "How can you design for the average golfer?  After two shots, he could be ANYWHERE."

But, I took that to mean that I should make holes playable from ANYWHERE, which maybe wasn't what Pete had in mind.

[Jim Nugent]

Here's how Mackenzie described the 15th in his booklet about ANGC:

"This is a three shot hole to most golfers.

"The stream will be diverted so as to form a similar loop to the First Hole at St. Andrews.

"It will not only make an interesting three shot hole, as one will be manoeuvering for position from the Tee shot onwards, but also a magnificent two shot hole, as a skillful and courageous player will, aided by a large hillock to the right of the loop of the stream, be able to pull his second shot around to the green."

Mac lists the championship distance as 485 yards.  I can't make out whether the regular distance is 460 yards or 480.  The hole seems way less user-friendly for average golfers now compared to how Mackenzie designed it. 

Is there any way around the pond that fronts the green, understanding you are likely sacrificing a stroke to stay clear of the water?  Are there any spots that are pretty flat, from which you can play your third to the green?

[Greg Taylor]

I played with a member last year... Said off the back tees they had +2 guy at ANGC and he shot 78, 79 over two rounds and that he felt he played well.

Distinction here is where the members' tee is... That all said I still say a lay up to a downhill lie with "upturned" shallow green is a tough break, esp for a 15 handicapper.

[Josh Stevens]

So it isn't that good a hole?  I certainly don't see it as such

Silly pond and tiny sliver of green that can only be held with hard spinning shot that lands within a 3 m range.

Really fail to see the fuss about Augusta.  Nice and green, but not sure I would enjoy playing it, which surely is the primary test.

[Mike Schott]

Mike,

I'm thinking about strategy for the 15 HCP not his actual execution. At Pebble, assuming he has hit a decent drive and actually faces a decision, our 15 might decide to have a go at the green for the fun of it or decide to bail out left hoping to avoid a big blow up.

When he plays his second shot he still might slice an intended bail out into the water, but at least he has the bail out option.

At Augusta I am just not sure this is true. Where does he attempt to hit his second shot and have a reasonable chance of success?

I think the strategy is what I outline. For a typical 15 handicap, it's a 3 shot hole. It's pretty wide open from tee to the creek so the approach is where a higher handicap player will falter. I can't recall playing any course that leaves you with a severely downhill wedge to a green fronted by a creek. That's a huge challenge for golfer's like me. Perhaps the second shot can be played to an area that leaves a flatter lie, either off to the side or further back.

[jeffwarne]

So it isn't that good a hole?  I certainly don't see it as such

Silly pond and tiny sliver of green that can only be held with hard spinning shot that lands within a 3 m range.

Really fail to see the fuss about Augusta.  Nice and green, but not sure I would enjoy playing it, which surely is the primary test.

To each his own.
I'm going to go way out on a limb and assume you've not been there.

ANGC (even post extra trees) is the gold standard of a course playable by the average guy, yet challenging for the pros.
As stated earlier, all "15" handicaps are different, and can be 15's for a variety of reasons, and may well have the ability to execute many different shots.

That said, while a 15 handicap might "enjoy" Pine Valley, but I'm 1000% sure I would enjoy playing WITH a 15 at ANGC, far more than Pine Valley, Royal Portrush, or Royal County Down, despite my love and respect of all four courses

[David Davis]

My good friend and college roommate played when he lived in Augusta working for EZGO. I think he was like 15.8 hcp and rarely golfed. I seem to remember him saying he had no idea what to do with that hole after hitting a really good drive so went for the green and got wet just barely making the water on what felt like his best shot. He said the lay-up left him with too tough a shot so the for him "hale Marry" was more fun. He was realistically not trying to break the course record.

The moral of the story is: he received the opportunity to play, the rest is likely irrelevant.

[Kevin Lynch]

One of my favorite Pete Dye quotes:  "How can you design for the average golfer?  After two shots, he could be ANYWHERE."

But, I took that to mean that I should make holes playable from ANYWHERE, which maybe wasn't what Pete had in mind.

As someone who has been everywhere, I appreciate it.

[Tim_Weiman]

So it isn't that good a hole?  I certainly don't see it as such

Silly pond and tiny sliver of green that can only be held with hard spinning shot that lands within a 3 m range.

Really fail to see the fuss about Augusta.  Nice and green, but not sure I would enjoy playing it, which surely is the primary test.

To each his own.
I'm going to go way out on a limb and assume you've not been there.

ANGC (even post extra trees) is the gold standard of a course playable by the average guy, yet challenging for the pros.
A 15 handicap might "enjoy" Pine Valley, but I'm 1000% sure I would enjoy playing WITH a 15 at ANGC, far more than Pine Valley, Royal Portrush, or Royal County Down, despite my love and respect of all four courses

Jeff:

Just in case it is not clear, I never intended this thread to be about Augusta as a whole. It is only intended to be a discussion about the 15th hole and only as it pertains to the mid handicap player.

FYI, I once played Pine Valley with a guy who was probably closer to a 25 than a 15 HCP and it was pretty brutal. I believe it would have been far better if we were playing Augusta.

Anyway, I am grateful to those who pointed out I overlooked the original design of #15. The history makes sense: Mackenzie was faithful to his original overall design concept for the course, but it was lost (on #15) with changes that placed more  emphasis on the Masters.

[Tim_Weiman]

Very earnest matters to be considered for sure!!

Tim: the thrust of your thread is very clear and I am sure it is not lost on Jeff. Like any thread, there will naturally be diversions to consider wider points.

Frankly, I think you are over complicating things. If said notional golfer hits a good one but not in range (or a stray one), they lay up to the flattest part of the fairway they can find - and react accordingly. Be that shoot at the pin or aim at the bunker as they are nervous about a shot from a downhill lie holding the green and not running off into the water beyond. Have I missed anything?

Brian,

Actually, after reading your post I am wondering if I still wasn't clear. Where, exactly, does the 15 hit his second shot? Where is that spot? How big is that area? Does the 15 have a real chance to hit it?

[Jim Nugent]

How steep is the area where Tiger hit his 3rd from last year?  IIRC, when he took his drop, the ball did not run downhill, but stayed where it landed. 

[jeffwarne]

Very earnest matters to be considered for sure!!

Tim: the thrust of your thread is very clear and I am sure it is not lost on Jeff. Like any thread, there will naturally be diversions to consider wider points.

Frankly, I think you are over complicating things. If said notional golfer hits a good one but not in range (or a stray one), they lay up to the flattest part of the fairway they can find - and react accordingly. Be that shoot at the pin or aim at the bunker as they are nervous about a shot from a downhill lie holding the green and not running off into the water beyond. Have I missed anything?

Brian,

Actually, after reading your post I am wondering if I still wasn't clear. Where, exactly, does the 15 hit his second shot? Where is that spot? How big is that area? Does the 15 have a real chance to hit it?

Tim,
The proverbial "15" after driving say 180-240, can then hit anywhere from a 5 wood to wedge, leaving him anywhere from 150-70 yards, a very wide landing area, Ideally he would hit it left with a right pin, and right with a left pin, but frankly that may be asking too much.
As long as the player doesn't aim right at a left pin, and/or lays up left, he's very unlikly to hit it in the water over the green, as it's mainly in play from the center long to left long.Lots of rooom right and long right.
that said if he hits it over, he will have a dicey pitch/chip, but isn't that what the handicap shot is for?
It's not like the lower handicapper giving the shot has an easy pitch either.

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