[Tim_Weiman]

We have all heard both Bobby Jones and Mackenzie wanted to build a course that works well for both members and expert (Masters) level players.

By and large, I think they achieved that with the Augusta design. But I do wonder: how does the 15 HCP play the 15th hole?

I assume he isn't going for the green in two, but the "lay up" hardly presents a bargain. The odds of playing and successfully executing the pitch from the downhill lie don't seem very good. How likely is the 15 HCP to get to play from an easier, flat lie closer to the water?

[jeffwarne]

We have all heard both Bobby Jones and Mackenzie wanted to build a course that works well for both members and expert (Masters) level players.

By and large, I think they achieved that with the Augusta design. But I do wonder: how does the 15 HCP play the 15th hole?

I assume he isn't going for the green in two, but the "lay up" hardly presents a bargain. The odds of playing and successfully executing the pitch from the downhill lie don't seem very good. How likely is the 15 HCP to get to play from an easier, flat lie closer to the water?

Given that he gets a shot on the hole........
He could lay up twice if the first "layup" didn't result in an ideal stance/lie/angle (maybe even aimimg for the "second cut")  .
or "go for it" on his third shot and either execute and win the hole, or not and lose the hole

or God forbid practice
It's a wedge he's being potentially asked to hit off a downhill lie, not a 3 iron

[Tim Martin]

We have all heard both Bobby Jones and Mackenzie wanted to build a course that works well for both members and expert (Masters) level players.

By and large, I think they achieved that with the Augusta design. But I do wonder: how does the 15 HCP play the 15th hole?

I assume he isn't going for the green in two, but the "lay up" hardly presents a bargain. The odds of playing and successfully executing the pitch from the downhill lie don't seem very good. How likely is the 15 HCP to get to play from an easier, flat lie closer to the water?

or God forbid practice
It's a wedge he's being potentially asked to hit off a downhill lie, not a 3 iron

That's tough love pro.

[Jim Sherma]

We're talking about a 15, aren't all shots kind of hit-and-hope? If they weren't they would be better than a 15, no?

[Mark Saltzman]

We're talking about a 15, aren't all shots kind of hit-and-hope? If they weren't they would be better than a 15, no?

No. Most 15 handicaps I know can hit most of the same shots a 5 can, he just hits them less often.

[Bill Brightly]

Mark,

Can most of the 15's you play with hit this green?

click on photo to enlarge
http://www.eleganthorsepictures.com/dyke-the-fifteenth-at-augusta.html?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adwords&id=18283950120&utm_content=pla

[Tim_Weiman]

We have all heard both Bobby Jones and Mackenzie wanted to build a course that works well for both members and expert (Masters) level players.

By and large, I think they achieved that with the Augusta design. But I do wonder: how does the 15 HCP play the 15th hole?

I assume he isn't going for the green in two, but the "lay up" hardly presents a bargain. The odds of playing and successfully executing the pitch from the downhill lie don't seem very good. How likely is the 15 HCP to get to play from an easier, flat lie closer to the water?

Given that he gets a shot on the hole........
He could lay up twice if the first "layup" didn't result in an ideal stance/lie/angle (maybe even aimimg for the "second cut")  .
or "go for it" on his third shot and either execute and win the hole, or not and lose the hole

or God forbid practice
It's a wedge he's being potentially asked to hit off a downhill lie, not a 3 iron

Jeff:

The 15 HCP who does practice probably hits from a flat lie at a driving range. It is unlikely he ever practices a shot like the 3rd shot on that hole, even with a wedge. It is a very tough shot.

I wish the Good Doctor himself were here to answer the question.

[Sven Nilsen]

Which version of the 15th are we talking about here?  The current version or the version from the original course that was fronted by a creek twenty yards short of the green with a gentle bank, not a steep slope, in between.

Sven

[Matthew Mollica]

At the risk of becoming a broken record, the game was even harder at the time of the course opening! Imagine carrying a bag of 8 - 10 c.1925 clubs, the most lofted of which was a niblick - at around 52*, with a thin sole. With these clubs, and a ball of that period, which allowed little spin, shots like those into 12, 15, 17 and other greens must have been very hard. I suspect MacKenzie and Jones built the odd hole which looked easy enough but played darn difficult - and that they were happy to do that.

MM

[Sven Nilsen]

Matthew:

All golf courses back then were "harder."  The relative distances people hit the ball, the equipment they used, the conditions they played under, etc. 

The question asked here is does the 15th hole at ANGC represent the original designers' ideals of being playable for the amateur and the pro.  The answer is that the hole has been changed so much over the years that the question is really irrelevant.

Sven

[Terry Lavin]

If only I could tell ya...

[Greg Taylor]

I think the reason you raised - a lay up to a downhill lie - is why Tom Doak gives it a "?" In the CG.

It's a valid question, but ANGC is a made-for-the-telly golf course now... It is all about the Masters. Location of members' tees aside I can't see the overlords giving one hoot about the 15 h'cap member and his twice yearly game.

My opinion anyway!

Greg

[Tim_Weiman]

Which version of the 15th are we talking about here?  The current version or the version from the original course that was fronted by a creek twenty yards short of the green with a gentle bank, not a steep slope, in between.

Sven

Sven,

Thanks for your response. Hadn't thought about that. The times I've stood in that fairway have left a very strong impression about how terrifying that shot is.

Wish I could see the original.

That aside, do you share the view the current hole is simply too hard for the 15 HCP?

[Mike_Young]

If a 15 handicapper knew how he was going to play the hole he would not be a 15 handicapper.

[Mark Pearce]

If a 15 handicapper knew how he was going to play the hole he would not be a 15 handicapper.

When were you last a 15 handicapper?  The arrogance of so many good players as to how mid 'cappers play is extraordinary.  There are 15 handicappers who hit some balls 300 yards but sometimes 50 yards wide and there are those who hit it 180 yards at most but as consistently as a scratch player.  Those guys would know how they'd play 15 and, mostly, would do exactly as planned.

[Tim_Weiman]

Mark Pierce,

I agree with you. Over the years I have seen a lot of guys who were 15ish because they couldn't hit straight, had terrible short games or simply lived up north and didn't play very much.

Sven,

I noticed Daniel Wexler's write up on hole by hole changes really doesn't say anything about the slope. Was the original 3rd shot really not a pretty severe downhill lie like today?

[Tim_Weiman]

To be fair, Mark, I think Mike's point was not how they _planned_ to play 15 but how they executed said plan.

The disparity may render meaningless any high handed ideals about how to ideally approach the hole.

Brian,

I didn't take Mike's comment that way.

Anyway, what exactly is the 15 supposed to do if he has hit a drive 225-240? Where should he play his second shot?

[Sven Nilsen]

Tim:

If its a question of fairness, I don't think every golf hole needs to be fair.

Its a hard golf hole, due to the contours and the water.  There are a lot of other hard golf holes out there, some with water, some without.  

The problem with this question is that it is so general.  Why is the player a 15?  Is it because they spray the ball off the tee?  Is it because they can't hit an iron or a wedge?  Is it because they can't putt?  Is it because they only play five times a year, but just so happens they practiced for four weeks straight leading up to their Augusta visit?  Is it a 76 year old who makes solid contact but has a hard time putting air under the ball?

For most, its going to take three good shots.  The average golfer has a hard time stringing three good shots together anywhere, whether they are playing a downhill par 5 fronted by water or a perfectly flat hole a mile wide with no bunkers or hazards.

Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

I noticed Daniel Wexler's write up on hole by hole changes really doesn't say anything about the slope. Was the original 3rd shot really not a pretty severe downhill lie like today?

Tim:

I don't think the slope of the fairway has changed much, if at all.  The change was at the front of the green.  What used to be a twenty yard gentle slope from the creek to the front edge is now a sharp bank into the water.

My read is that you used to be able to bounce a ball short of the green, past the creek, with the chance of it making the green.  If it didn't, it was unlikely it was going to roll back into the water.

A much different proposition than what we see today (and we're not even talking about the water over the green).  That original hole was very much in line with MacKenzie's and Jones' thoughts on designing a course that would be a challenge for the pros yet playable for the members.

Sven

[Tim_Weiman]

Sven,

Thanks again for your input. Wish I could play that hole! Really don't like what exists today, although it does work for the tournament.

[Sven Nilsen]

[jeffwarne]

We have all heard both Bobby Jones and Mackenzie wanted to build a course that works well for both members and expert (Masters) level players.

By and large, I think they achieved that with the Augusta design. But I do wonder: how does the 15 HCP play the 15th hole?

I assume he isn't going for the green in two, but the "lay up" hardly presents a bargain. The odds of playing and successfully executing the pitch from the downhill lie don't seem very good. How likely is the 15 HCP to get to play from an easier, flat lie closer to the water?

Given that he gets a shot on the hole........
He could lay up twice if the first "layup" didn't result in an ideal stance/lie/angle (maybe even aimimg for the "second cut")  .
or "go for it" on his third shot and either execute and win the hole, or not and lose the hole

or God forbid practice
It's a wedge he's being potentially asked to hit off a downhill lie, not a 3 iron

There you go again with the common sense. Has nobody told you there is no place for that kind of talk on this forum??  

Amazing how GCA sensibilities can change a man's view of a golf course. Walking around the course last year, there are various points where one definitely feels a sense that the original design has been anaesthetised in some way. I'd love to see that place get the Dunlop White treatment. No overseeding, hairy Merion bunkers that are less clean and hazard outlines shaggy and rustic rather than shaved. I think the results would be sensational. Given those phenomenal greensites, it would be sensory overload.

Brian,
If they had given it that treatment for the last 60-70 years, my guess is we wouldn't be discussing the course any more than  say TPC or Riviera.
Nice tournament, perhaps a Majpr, but not everything it has come to represent in the world as THE rite of spring.
For years Augusta WAS the gold standard of conditioning and flora, and really stood out amongst players, fans, and most importantly, the press-which (along with Bobby Jones) is where all the attention came from-certainly not from the architecture or the angles

[David_Tepper]

Speaking as a not very proud 15-handicapper (and one who has never set foot on AGNC), my first inclination would be to aim my 3rd shot for the bunker right of the green and try to make 6 from there.

[Tim_Weiman]

Speaking as a not very proud 15-handicapper (and one who has never set foot on AGNC), my first inclination would be to aim my 3rd shot for the bunker right of the green and try to make 6 from there.

David,

Believe or not, the thought has occurred to me as well!

[Mike_Young]

If a 15 handicapper knew how he was going to play the hole he would not be a 15 handicapper.

When were you last a 15 handicapper?  The arrogance of so many good players as to how mid 'cappers play is extraordinary.  There are 15 handicappers who hit some balls 300 yards but sometimes 50 yards wide and there are those who hit it 180 yards at most but as consistently as a scratch player.  Those guys would know how they'd play 15 and, mostly, would do exactly as planned.

Mark,
No arrogance intended but PGA Tour players don't play exactly as planned.  When I was a 15 handicapper has nothing to do with the question.  A 15 handicap is what is important here and if they were consistent, whether it was 180 yard drives or three hundred they would only be a 15 handicapper if they were a sand bagger.  

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