[Tim_Weiman]

 does the 15th really provide an option for the mid handicap player?

I don't think so, but maybe if I hit a 100 balls from different locations I would have a different opinion.

Do that three times a week for a couple years and it won't be an issue-

Jeff,

Wish I could. I remember perfectly playing my favorite (maybe crazy) shot in golf - a second shot to #17 on the Cashen at Ballybunion - and it was sure a thrill.

At Augusta I would probably most like to hit the middle of #11, but wouldn't even try unless I'd been playing everyday for a few months.

[Jim Nugent]

a betrayal of Bobby Jones? The creek became a pond MANY, many years before his death.
Perhaps a betrayal of MacKenzie, but they betrayed him long before by never actually paying him

Agreed...

I would argue Bobby Jones and the powers that "were", were  fad and trend followers, the same as the leaders of most private clubs throughout history...

Bobby was not fad/trend follower in how he had Mackenzie design ANGC.  From everything I read, it was a revolutionary course, and Bob had a big hand in that. 

Within a few years of opening, I suspect the tournament became more important to the club than the course.  I think that's probably why they changed it so often.  To keep the course challenging to the world's best players.  They had an annual laboratory after all to test their hypotheses. 

I also suspect Roberts was the dominant person at the club.  If Bob alone had made the decisions, I bet the course would not look like it does today. 

Tim Weiman: on 12, can bogey lay up off the tee in front of the creek, and have a reasonable pitch to the green, making 4 pretty likely, and 3 possible? 

[jeffwarne]

a betrayal of Bobby Jones? The creek became a pond MANY, many years before his death.
Perhaps a betrayal of MacKenzie, but they betrayed him long before by never actually paying him

Agreed...

I would argue Bobby Jones and the powers that "were", were  fad and trend followers, the same as the leaders of most private clubs throughout history...

Bobby was not fad/trend follower in how he had Mackenzie design ANGC.  From everything I read, it was a revolutionary course, and Bob had a big hand in that. 

Within a few years of opening, I suspect the tournament became more important to the club than the course.  I think that's probably why they changed it so often.  To keep the course challenging to the world's best players.  They had an annual laboratory after all to test their hypotheses. 

I also suspect Roberts was the dominant person at the club.  If Bob alone had made the decisions, I bet the course would not look like it does today. 

 

agreed Jones/Mackenzie's design was revolutionary.
But the course did change under his watch, and Roberts worked for him.
Jones was no doubt impressed and influenced by TOC, but who is to say he wasn't equally impressed and influenced by Maxwell, Dick Wilson, Robert Trent Jones, and the elite players of  eras past his. The changes would certainly indicate he was.

[MClutterbuck]

''But, my question remains where? 80-100 yards out just leaves a lie that invites disaster''

   My question to you is that you keep going back to original design, and if I am not mistaken the grade of the hole at 80-100 yards out is the same as it was originally, is it not?  I believe the embankment is sharper short of the green, but why couldn't the rye grass be grown out a few inches for everyday play.  I would think a 15 handi laying up would be the wise thing to do on #15 if you cared about your score.  

I would love to see average scores from Cypress 16 to Augusta 15 for the 15 handi as it relates to par.  

IMHO, i think there isn't enough variations of lies on modern golf courses, but Dr Mack designs have them.  Could it be that the average golfer has played too many modern designs that they have lost the ability to adjust to uneven lies?  I guess we agree to disagree..  If you had another suggestion other than regrading i might agree with you.  

I would bet a lot of money that Cypress 16th is much, much tougher than Augusta 15th. The bail out to the left at CP is not at all easy either. On the #2 handicap hole at ANGC a 15 handicap has to play for bogey. From 80 to 140 yards you simply play to the right part of the green. It is not difficult to hold the green. It does not play as firm as for the Masters. If you are not short, the ball will stay on the green. 3 putts from there and you have your bogey. Par is not out of the question.  If the approach is long, a chip and 2 putts is doable.

[Tim_Weiman]

Jim Nugent,

Yes, I think you could lay up on #12, but it still would be a tough shot. Just not that much green to work with.

[MClutterbuck]

Jim Nugent,

Yes, I think you could lay up on #12, but it still would be a tough shot. Just not that much green to work with.

I don't see how a lay up would help. Leaves you with a tougher half wedge and I believe, but not positive, it could be downhill if not long enough. I love 12 because it is the only hole you  play  from the Masters tees.

[jeffwarne]

Jim Nugent,

Yes, I think you could lay up on #12, but it still would be a tough shot. Just not that much green to work with.

I don't see how a lay up would help. Leaves you with a tougher half wedge and I believe, but not positive, it could be downhill if not long enough. I love 12 because it is the only hole you  play  from the Masters tees.

I can't imagine how anyone who would even think of laying up on a shot of 130-155 yards OFF A TEE, would have the skills to hit a half wedge from a level flat lie ,over water, to a firm green with minimal depth

[Sven Nilsen]

Jeff:

I would wonder how such a person ended up on a golf course, let alone Augusta National.

Sven

[jeffwarne]

Jeff:

I would wonder how such a person ended up on a golf course, let alone Augusta National.

Sven

Point taken
Maybe security just ain't what it used to be (though there's an opening I could show them about 30 yards from 12 green )
 but I gotta believe a short to mid iron, or even a lofted fairway wood or hybrid off a tee is infinitely easier than that tight lie pitch pitch if one is uncertain about their skills

[Joe Bausch]

But I do wonder: how does the 15 HCP play the 15th hole?

Very carefully.  And with a big smile.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Which version of the 15th are we talking about here? 

The ONLY version you can play, the current version

The current version or the version from the original course that was fronted by a creek twenty yards short of the green with a gentle bank, not a steep slope, in between.

Sven, how could anybody play any version other than the current version ?

Tim,

To answer your question you have to understand that there is NO flat lie.
Starting from in front of the fairway trees, the land slopes down toward the water presenting a very challenging shot from a downhill lie to a sliver of a green that slopes from high right to low left.

It's a difficult shot for a zero, five, ten or fifteen handicap.

While it's a relatively short par 5, I doubt that a 15 could get close to the water with their second, and given the slope of the fairway I doubt a 15 could hit their second with confidence and the precision to avoid having it run into the water.

And, you're assuming that the drive isn't left, behind the fairway trees.

The hole is much harder than it looks

[Sven Nilsen]

Which version of the 15th are we talking about here? 

The ONLY version you can play, the current version

The current version or the version from the original course that was fronted by a creek twenty yards short of the green with a gentle bank, not a steep slope, in between.

Sven, how could anybody play any version other than the current version ?

Tim,

To answer your question you have to understand that there is NO flat lie.
Starting from in front of the fairway trees, the land slopes down toward the water presenting a very challenging shot from a downhill lie to a sliver of a green that slopes from high right to low left.

It's a difficult shot for a zero, five, ten or fifteen handicap.

While it's a relatively short par 5, I doubt that a 15 could get close to the water with their second, and given the slope of the fairway I doubt a 15 could hit their second with confidence and the precision to avoid having it run into the water.

And, you're assuming that the drive isn't left, behind the fairway trees.

The hole is much harder than it looks

Pat:

Go back and read the first post in this thread.  It talks about the original design intent.

Either that, or go back to your nap.

Sven

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,

Here's the OPENING POST IN THIS THREAD

Reread it as you seem confused.

The ONLY version anyone can play is the CURRENT VERSION

We have all heard both Bobby Jones and Mackenzie wanted to build a course that works well for both members and expert (Masters) level players.

By and large, I think they achieved that with the Augusta design. But I do wonder: how does the 15 HCP play the 15th hole?

I assume he isn't going for the green in two, but the "lay up" hardly presents a bargain. The odds of playing and successfully executing the pitch from the downhill lie don't seem very good. How likely is the 15 HCP to get to play from an easier, flat lie closer to the water?

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat:

Go sell crazy somewhere else. 

Tim's post asks whether or not Jones and Mackenzie achieved the objective stated.  My point was that if that is the question, then shouldn't we be talking about the version of the hole as it existed before any subsequent changes.

I'm sure plenty of 15 handicaps played the course prior to the creek being changed into a pond.  Perhaps you knew some of them.

But thank you for stating the obvious.  I was fully aware that the only version of the course anyone could play today is the one that exists today.

Sven

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat & Sven,

I think I should clarify and apologize. My OP could have been more clear. When I wrote the OP I forgot the current hole is not the original.

That aside, I think our discussion has been worthwhile. Mark B makes an interesting point about the true original intending to challenge the "bold second" but not a "timid third". Conceptually that makes sense to me.

As for the current version, Pat obviously I agree with you one hundred percent. It is much tougher than some here are willing to concede. What I couldn't remember is if there was any flat lie, so thanks for expressing a view on this key point.

[Bill_McBride]

''That the hazard today challenges all number of shots is partly due to the increased size of the hazard as well as the apparent increased difficulty of the green complex. The bunker right, the lake behind...''

I live 3 miles from a Dr Mack course (luckily), and the 18th hole had a creek just like 15 at Augusta, they made it into a pond for storm water reasons due to runoff.  Why was the hazard made bigger on 15?  

Removing the bunker to the right would be really cool.  I think the shot from 100 yards on 15 would be much easier than the tee shot at #12.  

I'm not sure of the timeline, but the creeks on both 15 and 16 were both dammed and turned into ponds.  Could the evolving designs of RTJ been an influence?   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

Go sell crazy somewhere else. 

Ahhh, the old attempt to demonize and discredit when the facts don't agree with you

Tim's post asks whether or not Jones and Mackenzie achieved the objective stated. 

NO, it doesn't.
It asks how a 15 handicap would play the hole.

But I do wonder: how does the 15 HCP play the 15th hole?

[/color]

My point was that if that is the question, then shouldn't we be talking about the version of the hole as it existed before any subsequent changes.

In what context would you or anyone else be able to evaluate any answer ?

Since no one has seen the hole and no one has played the hole, how would you be able to assess the merits of any response ?


I'm sure plenty of 15 handicaps played the course prior to the creek being changed into a pond. 
Perhaps you knew some of them.

I did, but, none of them are alive today.

But thank you for stating the obvious.  I was fully aware that the only version of the course anyone could play today is the one that exists today.
Then why posit that the question should be framed within the context of the configuration of the old/original hole ?

Especially when any answer is pure conjecture

[Patrick_Mucci]

''That the hazard today challenges all number of shots is partly due to the increased size of the hazard as well as the apparent increased difficulty of the green complex. The bunker right, the lake behind...''

I live 3 miles from a Dr Mack course (luckily), and the 18th hole had a creek just like 15 at Augusta, they made it into a pond for storm water reasons due to runoff.  Why was the hazard made bigger on 15?  

Removing the bunker to the right would be really cool.  I think the shot from 100 yards on 15 would be much easier than the tee shot at #12.  

I'm not sure of the timeline, but the creeks on both 15 and 16 were both dammed and turned into ponds. 

Could the evolving designs of RTJ been an influence?   

I believe that RTJ redesigned # 16, so, "yes" RTJ influenced the hole.

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat:

If your argumentative nature weren't so laughable, I might actually get upset with you pigheadedness.

Its called context.  Read the first sentence, then read the second sentence, then read the third sentence.  Then think about how they work together. 

Give me a call tomorrow morning and I'll tell you what shoe to put on first.

Sven

[Ben Sims]

I looked at the hole from a go-jillion angles and two things stood out at me.  

1) By far the best layup IMHO was as far left and far down the fairway you can get. It's the flattest part of the fairway and offers an angle that allows for the most error. It'd be a 40-50yd shot off ground that's not nearly as sloped as dead center fairway 100yds out. I guess that'd be somewhere near the drop circle.

2) I'm an 11, and if I was anywhere in the fairway and not blocked out, I'd go for it every time. If I get over, I'm on the same side as the green and have a chance at birdie and hopefully an easy bogey.  If I don't make it, I get to drop in the fluffy cut next to the water just 30yds from the green. After all, I'm not required to use the drop area am I? Then I'm hitting 4 and with decent play, I can still make a bogey.  

[V. Kmetz]

Ben,

I've only been there twice, so I'm no expert, but that chip back onto the green from anything over is wicked, at tournament time.

If you're going for it, that right bunker seems like the best error.

When I thought of this question watchign play there over the years, I felt that

A. the longer and "lefter" you could be was best.

B. the real "challenge of that shot" would be my worry that I hadn't gauged roll-out well enough and the ball would bramble on into the hazard.

cheers

vk

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

If your argumentative nature weren't so laughable, I might actually get upset with you pigheadedness.

OK, you made a mistake, I get it.  No need to get defensive and try to deflect the issue.

As I stated, if we accepted your moronic proposition, again, how could you possibly evaluate any answer ?

I answer your questions, try answering mine.

Its called context.  Read the first sentence, then read the second sentence, then read the third sentence.  Then think about how they work together. 

Sentences are independent of one another and there's no mandate that they "work together"

Give me a call tomorrow morning and I'll tell you what shoe to put on first.

That sounds good, and I'll teach you how to read with a modicum of comprehension.

I think that's a fair trade.

[Tim_Weiman]

I looked at the hole from a go-jillion angles and two things stood out at me.  

1) By far the best layup IMHO was as far left and far down the fairway you can get. It's the flattest part of the fairway and offers an angle that allows for the most error. It'd be a 40-50yd shot off ground that's not nearly as sloped as dead center fairway 100yds out. I guess that'd be somewhere near the drop circle.

2) I'm an 11, and if I was anywhere in the fairway and not blocked out, I'd go for it every time. If I get over, I'm on the same side as the green and have a chance at birdie and hopefully an easy bogey.  If I don't make it, I get to drop in the fluffy cut next to the water just 30yds from the green. After all, I'm not required to use the drop area am I? Then I'm hitting 4 and with decent play, I can still make a bogey.  

Ben,

I agree. The far left from 40-50 yards is way better than dead center 80-100.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I looked at the hole from a go-jillion angles and two things stood out at me.  

1) By far the best layup IMHO was as far left and far down the fairway you can get. It's the flattest part of the fairway and offers an angle that allows for the most error. It'd be a 40-50yd shot off ground that's not nearly as sloped as dead center fairway 100yds out. I guess that'd be somewhere near the drop circle.

Ben,

The problem is, you can't get to that spot due to the fairway trees blocking all but a big drive up the right side

2) I'm an 11, and if I was anywhere in the fairway and not blocked out, I'd go for it every time.

It looks easy on TV, but, it's anything but an easy shot.
It's a very intimidating visual and it's a hard, hard shot, even for a scratch or better golfer.

If I get over, I'm on the same side as the green and have a chance at birdie and hopefully an easy bogey.

Not really, if you go over the green, you're chipping/pitching back to a narrow green that runs away from you toward the water.
It's a frightening shot, not for the timid, and if you blade it, it's deja vu all over again.
And, if you chunk it............ ditto  

If I don't make it, I get to drop in the fluffy cut next to the water just 30yds from the green.

Fluffy cut ?  What "fluffy" cut.
You'll have a downhill lie, over water, to a narrow green that slopes high right to low left.
It's a very intimidating shot, one that an 11 handicap is ill equipped to execute.

After all, I'm not required to use the drop area am I?

No, but you are required to drop at the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard within two club lengths, or as far back as you want, keeping that point between you and the hole.

The shot is significantly more difficult than you imagine.
The downhill lie, combined with the requirement of an extremely deft touch, with horrendous consequences for failure, make the shot far more difficult than you depict.

Then I'm hitting 4 and with decent play, I can still make a bogey.  

You're dreaming  

[Patrick_Mucci]

I looked at the hole from a go-jillion angles and two things stood out at me.  

1) By far the best layup IMHO was as far left and far down the fairway you can get. It's the flattest part of the fairway and offers an angle that allows for the most error. It'd be a 40-50yd shot off ground that's not nearly as sloped as dead center fairway 100yds out. I guess that'd be somewhere near the drop circle.

2) I'm an 11, and if I was anywhere in the fairway and not blocked out, I'd go for it every time. If I get over, I'm on the same side as the green and have a chance at birdie and hopefully an easy bogey.  If I don't make it, I get to drop in the fluffy cut next to the water just 30yds from the green. After all, I'm not required to use the drop area am I? Then I'm hitting 4 and with decent play, I can still make a bogey.  

Ben,

I agree. The far left from 40-50 yards is way better than dead center 80-100.

Tim,

Do you still think so with a far left hole location ?

How about a far right hole location ?

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