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Mike_Young

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Did marketing damage GCA and the game?
« on: March 22, 2014, 10:19:43 AM »
Beginning with Charles Frazier hiring a guy named Pete Dye and Jack Nicklaus to design Harbor Town, golf design took on a new light.  The signature professional golfer idea began to blossom and multi-million dollar RE developments were promoted based entirely on the name of a professional golfer/designer.  Entire marketing/advertising campaigns were printed/developed touting such.  It was a win/win for the professional golfer/designer because the developer was spending millions to promote his work when it would not be possible to promote such if it were just to sell golf.  Thus the professional golfer/architect began to accumulate large offices of designers and sales staff to promote themselves to other large developers.

 A GAME WAS BEING TURNED INTO AN UNSUSTAINABLE BUSINESS MODEL

As each new development searched to improve upon the last, the golf course and clubhouse was usually the focal point and rock walls, waterfall, pumped/recirculating creeks, 70,000 sq ft clubhouses with $500,000 half way houses became fixtures.  (Also, when length is mentioned....a 7200 yard golf course vs. a 6600 yard golf course with 100 ft wide lots on both sides of a fairway would give you 36 more lots.)

Preferred General contractors were placed on projects by the design firms because it made life much easier when they could just relate to these few particular firms what they needed and use a past course for comparison.  Cost escalated.

Irrigation and equipment companies saw what was happening and developed unsustainable ( golf cost wise) equipment since they knew the signature architects could specify such to the RE developers who were only searching to one-up the competition.

College and University Turf Grass schools saw the light and  developed programs to teach many sharp, young, new supts how to incorporate these unsustainable theories and ideas into the market place.

The design firms hired sharp young landscape architecture students to draft and make site visits as their representatives. 

AND then it blew up.....

What did they do?
Many of you may remember the older publications such as Golf Course News which was published monthly and was at least 32 pages of color touting all the new projects and design firms, builders etc.  BUT one thing was never , ever promoted by these Golf professional/architecture firms.  AND that was public golf.  At the time they had no desire because they had this huge market for golf being subsidized at ridiculously high prices by RE developments.  SO AS IT BLEW UP THEY ENTERED PUBLIC GOLF PROMOTING IT AS CCFAD.  They proceeded to blow that up also.  They had degraded and often laughed at those of us building such projects in the past and now they were right in the mix.  It was amazing to watch how they turned.

And once that turned what happened?
A huge marketing effort was made by builder groups and architecture groups to convince clubs they needed extreme renovations or remodelings when much much smaller efforts would have sufficed.  AND it was found by many architects that a club could market themselves thru the name of an OLD DEAD ARCHITECT much cheaper than hiring a modern signature. 

All of the above aided in creating an aloofness in the GCA business today. What does that mean?   Let me say this before saying more.  I think all that have been in this business on their own have learned to be hardened and not really worry with about the arrows etc.  but anyway IMHO I can have respect for others personally while not caring for their work.  And that is often the case.  The aloofness generated by those years left us with an abundance of "deer in headlights".  I have often had it used against me in selling a job the fact that I was not trained by a signature firm and had therefore not been exposed.  They forgot, I was trained by working for an equipment company that was sitting in the same room selling to that same developer the items that signature had specified. ;D  I knew where the BS was. 

Think about it...

The guys that were working for so many of the signature firms were basically dumped.  It was business but it was a shock to many because the perception of reality in those firms was just not right.  Regional guys that had been selling and promoting themselves had a huge advantage over guys that had been sheltered by a signature and his marketing/sales department for years.  Just look at the ASGCA list of members and see how many worked for firms other than themselves and look at their own  websites to see how many of the listings will be work from the signature firm.

The general contractors that had been building for these RE developments had layers of management and job superintendents.  Change orders were the name of the game walking into a club and telling them that one had done the work of a signature firm often had guys drooling.  These guys also would denigrate smaller firms doing their on work or just doing smaller jobs as having no ability.  Meeting budgets was not necessarily a critical aspect of the RE business because often the signature had told the developer he expected a minimum specific budget and these guys took full advantage.  This was the segment that made HUGE money of of all of this.  And some can't crank a dozer or grip a club or know what a redan hole is.

The young supts that had come out of these schools came out searching for clubs with budgets that would let them show their stuff and obtain a job at a club with an even bigger budget.  Most had never seen a ground driven fairway unit.  Can you imagine a business school sending guys out into the world looking for ways to spend instead f ways to profit.  Profit was not taught in turf school.  I mean after all the chemical, fertilizer and equipment companies were providing the grants and why would they want less of their product to be used?  Today it is difficult to hire one and convince they can work for the budget you require.  Some learn and do extremely well and some go away thinking low budgets are beneath them.

The equipment, fertilizer and chemical firms continue on down the path thinking they can control the industry.

The USGA never wanted public golf and as much as they say they embraced it, it does not show on their boards or other areas.  There are 4000 private clubs out of 16,000.  They want the money and that's it. 

And so here we are today. 
No one wants to say where they are working.  Ex signature associates are hanging around as though in the business by doing a few bunkers every few years and showing websites listing the projects of their previous employers.  General contractors are hiring young draftsmen and doing the entire project themselves without an architect.  Architects are doing their own construction.  Turf equipment companies are sold out of ground driven fairway units and wanting to produce more.  Pump stations are smaller.  Clubhouses are much much smaller.  Architects work from their homes.  And all of this is good for golf....when we finally escape from the "aloofness" hype of the architect and place him in the same view as the supt then we will have arrived.  Needs a few more years....

hopefully golf will mainly be marketed in a 20 mile radius...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Nigel Islam

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Re: Did marketing damage GCA and the game?
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2014, 10:32:40 AM »
Mike does the USGA get more money from the private clubs than the publics?

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Did marketing damage GCA and the game?
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2014, 11:18:13 AM »
Mike,

About ten years ago I walked on to Big Met, a modest, heavily played course that is part of Cleveland's Metropark system.

I got fixed up with a fellow from Texas who said he was visiting relatives and very happy to to get out for a round. When I asked him where he played back home he mentioned some course I never heard of.

Then, he seemed kind of sad and said he may not be able to play much in the future because the green fees were going up.

He told me they were going up from $27 to $36.

I have been fortunate to travel and see many of the world's great courses, but this experience was a sobering reminder of what golf may be like for many people.
Tim Weiman

Peter Pallotta

Re: Did marketing damage GCA and the game?
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2014, 11:47:17 AM »
Mike - a long way round: an old girlfriend and I used to go see a lot of live music by young independent bands, in the days when the record companies controlled everything and bands needed them to record and market themselves. And we used to bemoan that fact that so many good young bands never got signed, that the mainstream companies were missing/not interested in the alternative music these bands made so well. Jump ahead over 20 years, and my friend is now hosting a weekly radio show, coast to coast in Canada, about all things popular culture; and with new computer and sound recording technologies and facebook and websites and other venues for promotion and distribution, young bands had more freedom and choice and opportunities than ever before -- they didn't need the big bad record companies to sign them, record them, and market them because they could record and market themselves. This was the theory at least -- but in practice, my friend sadly told me, the reality was now that she was getting about 500-1000 CDs sent to her every single week by young bands across the country, and that she couldn't even begin to even begin to think about listening to them or discovering something great; there was just too many records and too many bands, and she found herself throwing the CDs in the recycling bin the moment they got to her desk. The irony, of course, was that someone who loved alternative music and always thought the record companies/marketing people were a 'block' to all this creativity found that those companies were in fact a 'filter' and a 'vehicle for promotion' that has not yet been effectively replaced. I don't quite know what point I'm trying to make, Mike, except that I think many things are double edged swords, and that the law of unintended consequences plays out in many ways.

Peter

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Did marketing damage GCA and the game?
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2014, 12:17:01 PM »
Peter,

I lived in Nashville for several years and can tell you there are a lot of super talented musicians you will never hear about.

One night I met a guy with a very well connected father in law: Ronnie Tutt, a long time drummer for Elvis.

No matter. He was still just tending bar when he wasn't playing down on Main Street.
Tim Weiman

Chip Gaskins

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Re: Did marketing damage GCA and the game?
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2014, 12:26:53 PM »
Mike-

Great post.  You continue to be a breath of fresh (or should I say candid) discussion to the site.  Thanks.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Did marketing damage GCA and the game?
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2014, 12:37:01 PM »
As long as we are discussing excellent, local design-built courses - what's the schedule on re opening Longshadow?    ;D

David_Tepper

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Re: Did marketing damage GCA and the game?
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2014, 01:51:01 PM »
Mike Y. -

While I understand your point, I think the notion that golf marketing/promotion (and even real estate development) somehow began with the development of Harbor Town is a little farfetched. The marketing/promotion of golf is almost as old as the game itself.

Golf resorts like Turnberry, Gleneagles and Cruden Bay were built/developed and promoted roughly 100 years ago for commercial purposes by the railroad companies wanting people to travel on their rail lines to get to them. Back in the day, those resorts were heavily advertised/promoted by their owners/developers. Didn't the same happened with Pinehurst, the Greenbrier and the Homestead?

Did you read Sven Nielson's thread on El Sobrante GC in the 1920's? The articles contain jargon every bit as bombastic as Donald Trump's today.

"We are developing here a golf course of champion calibre. I believe it it destined to be one of the most popular in the country."


As the saying goes, "while history may not repeat itself, it sure does rhyme."

DT

 

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Did marketing damage GCA and the game?
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2014, 02:20:12 PM »
David,

I am not in the golf business but am not sure reference to 100 year old projects help.

Doesn't every market have its own supply and demand balance? Doesn't every market have its own price point that is necessary to grow volume?

Mike seems to be saying that somewhere around the Harbor Town project the industry developed a cost structure and pricing that just doesn't work if the intent is to grow the business.

Do you see it differently?
Tim Weiman

David_Tepper

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Re: Did marketing damage GCA and the game?
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2014, 02:38:07 PM »
"Mike seems to be saying that somewhere around the Harbor Town project the industry developed a cost structure and pricing that just doesn't work if the intent is to grow the business."

Tim W. -

I hardly hardly an expert (or even a novice) on the economics of the golf business. At best I am a casual observer. But I try to be an observer of economic history and human nature.

Harbor Town was built roughly 50 years ago. Since Harbor Town was built, there are way more golf courses and way more people playing golf. While there have certainly been excesses in the current cycle (as there are in every cycle), haven't the vast majority of the real estate/golf course developments built since then been successful?

DT    

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Did marketing damage GCA and the game?
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2014, 02:41:55 PM »
Tim, the cost structure and pricing developed during the boom years not only doesn't grow the game, it hurts the game.
The golf "industry" is in decline and I believe much of it is being driven by the idea that everything has to cost so much or it isn't being done correctly. Many in golf view value engineering as cutting corners and it will be used against you if you have a rep as a "value" guy.

But, if you can ever get past all the client's advisers and actually get to the guy writing the checks and explain what you are doing, then you have a very good chance of successfully selling value.

The standards that were developed during the salad years are still with us. I recently observed an irrigation renovation where the client's adviser selected the irrigation consultant purely on who bid the lowest fee. That consultant was hired and produced a plan that resulted in a $3 million bid. The project never happened and the client was stuck with all the costs associated with the search and bidding process.

What I find most interesting, and I'll stick with an irrigation point of view, is it is my belief that the industry actually hurts itself with this focus on high cost, high end. There are literally thousands of golf courses across the country with old systems that are failing and falling apart. But those courses have been taught to believe that you have to spend $1.5M or more to get a system. Recently in Golf Industry magazine, their irrigation consultant/columnist, wrote that a "basic" system starts at $2M. How does a $40 green fee course justify spending $2M? And how did they possibly survive for the last 30 years without a state of the art system. There is a huge niche of courses that would love to have a 600K - 800K system, but no well known consultant is going to give that to them and Toro and Rainbird are not going after that market.
If I was an irrigation supply house, I'd have an in house designer and I'd be pushing 2 row systems and 1000 gpm systems, and I'd make a profit. But I'd also make a lot of enemies.

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Did marketing damage GCA and the game?
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2014, 03:44:47 PM »
David,

At best I am also nothing more than a casual observer and can't really speak intelligently about the economics of golf. People like Don Mahaffey can. I can't.

Also, Harbor Town itself may not be the project most appropriate to mention when it comes to the cost side of things. I always thought of it as unusual from a design standpoint with the size of greens and length being contrary to trends at the time.

But, I think Mike Young selected it because of the Dye/Nicklaus collaboration and the fact that Nicklaus went on to build many high end projects. To my knowledge, Nicklaus wasn't doing projects like Common Ground.

Anyway, yes, since Harbor Town there have been many successful projects. However, I think something is wrong with the cost structure of the industry today. Costs are too high if the goal is to increase participation in the game.

Do you disagree with that?
Tim Weiman

Jud_T

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Re: Did marketing damage GCA and the game?
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2014, 03:48:26 PM »
True artists don't market, and often see financial success as a humorous side effect of their work, until that is everyone wants a product similar to that already produced, and in the exact same style. For better or worse, with few exceptions, golf exists at the crossroad of art and commerce.  Once you get in bed with a capitalist, it becomes a horse of a different color.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mike_Young

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Re: Did marketing damage GCA and the game?
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2014, 04:22:37 PM »
Bill,
We closed on the last section of Longshadow Thursday afternoon and now we will begin to rework it for hopefully a late Summer opening.  Plan to use a clubhouse made of three Air Stream Trailers with a fire pit...should be cool...

David Tepper,
Sorry for the confusion, my point was that RE Development marketing using golf as a leader began with Harbor Town....flat crappy site with big name and lot value created......yet often no thought given to the operating of the golf properties once there is not RE income.  And over the next 40 years golf was overloaded with unsustainable cost in order to sell lots on bad sites...
I realize golf itself was advertised and marketed for years.  A very good example was Sea Island and The Cloister properties.  They were fine and doing well as a resort property selling hotel rooms and golf BUT once they became a RE property they went overboard trying to create perceived value and blew up.  There mistake was thinking the really really big international money they had hoped to create when the G* conference was held there etc would wish to purchase there.  When the fact is the really big money has no problem dropping 50 grand a week for a resort visit there but they will purchase in South Hampton and Palm Beach.  They will not be trapped in a place that actually gets cold during the year and they can't play in shirt sleeves.

J Tigerman,
It will be capitalist that save golf also :)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bill_McBride

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Re: Did marketing damage GCA and the game?
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2014, 06:35:45 PM »
Bill,
We closed on the last section of Longshadow Thursday afternoon and now we will begin to rework it for hopefully a late Summer opening.  Plan to use a clubhouse made of three Air Stream Trailers with a fire pit...should be cool...


After Hurricane Ivan destroyed our old clubhouse at Pensacola CC and the new one was slow to be built, we used a triple wide for a clubhouse.  Burgers and steaks grilled outside.  No men's grill, everybody socializing in one big room and outside.  I think it's the happiest I ever was at the club.  I think your Airsteams will be fine, look forward to playing Longshadow again. 

David_Tepper

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Re: Did marketing damage GCA and the game?
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2014, 07:42:38 PM »
"But, I think Mike Young selected it because of the Dye/Nicklaus collaboration and the fact that Nicklaus went on to build many high end projects. To my knowledge, Nicklaus wasn't doing projects like Common Ground."

Tim W. -

I believe the Nicklaus group did design a low/reasonably-priced public course from a reclaimed mining site somewhere in Idaho or Montana. That could be his Common Ground. But I am not sure how that is relevant to the discussion. Golf courses built on the basis of real estate development may not be the best way to "grow the game" (assuming there is one best way), but it is one way the game has grown.

As I said (or tried to say) in my first post, the peaks of cycles always bring excesses, where the lilies get gilded. I don't think what we are seeing now is a whole lot different from what golf went thru in the 1930's.

I would love to see more entry level options (par-3 courses, executive courses, 9-hole courses, junior length courses, etc.) be created to make golf more available to a wider range of people. It is unfortunate that a number of those facilities are now being closed so the land can be used for other purposes. It is a sign of the times.r  

I owned a tennis shop in the 1970's and witnessed the tennis boom (and subsequent bust) firsthand. It happens

DT

Mike_Young

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Re: Did marketing damage GCA and the game?
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2014, 07:46:34 PM »
David,
What made me aks the question was an article on the last Page of April Golf Digest titled "The Battle For Atlanta".  http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2014-04/david-owen-muny-life

The last few paragraphs said so much of what has happened in this business.  when RE was booming these types of things were not happening...
here is an excerpt:

 Tasioudis holds the course record—63—at Bobby Jones Golf Course, in Atlanta Memorial Park, five miles away. Jones himself played a round at Bobby Jones on Dec. 30 in 1933, the year it opened; his foursome included Charles Yates, who, four months later, was the low amateur in the first Masters. (Jones and Yates played matches for what they called a "willy rock": a dollar bill.) The course added a clubhouse in 1941, and Jones returned for the dedication. Above the lintels on the front door and two of the front windows are bas-reliefs of angry raptors flanking what looks like the golf bag of Agamemnon.

The greens at Bobby Jones were redone in 2006 (with Champion Bermuda); they were the truest and fastest greens I putted on during my visit to Atlanta, which included rounds at two private clubs. But other parts of the course have suffered from hard use, long neglect and way too many trees. Bob Cupp, in conjunction with a group called the Atlanta Memorial Park Conservancy, has donated architectural plans for two possible redesigns: one for a shortened 18-hole course, and one for a "reversible" nine-hole course that would be playable in either direction (though not at the same time) and would leave room for a driving range. Cupp, who is in his 70s, told me that the only item on his bucket list, to the extent that he has one, is improving public golf in his hometown.

Not everyone shares Cupp's enthusiasm for his ideas. The main criticism I heard from Bobby Jones regulars, including members of a group called Friends of Bobby Jones Golf Course, is that the conservancy consists almost entirely of people who are not Bobby Jones regulars. The nine-hole configuration, which Cupp strongly prefers, is ingenious—Cupp told me he thinks it would attract national attention—but the people I played with said they hated the prospect of losing nine holes in a city that's already underserved. They view the conservancy's master plan for Memorial Park as something like eminent domain in reverse, and they characterized its backers to me as wealthy neighbors who, if they play golf at all, don't play it on city-owned courses. "This would be their little practice area during the week," one said, "and then on the weekend they'd go play at their private club."

It's a lot more complicated than that, of course. But you don't have to rush to pick a side, because the whole thing is now in the hands of the politicians.


Read More http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2014-04/david-owen-muny-life#ixzz2wjqC5RVX
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Did marketing damage GCA and the game?
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2014, 07:55:08 PM »
David,

I definitely agree real estate development course are not a way to grow the game. Wish there could be more Common Ground projects. We also need more of what the Cleveland Metroparks system has: two nine hole courses you can usually play for $10 or less. That is something the average guy can take his kid to.
Tim Weiman

David_Tepper

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Re: Did marketing damage GCA and the game?
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2014, 08:05:58 PM »
Mike Y. -

I actually did see that column in the current Golf Digest just the other day. I know some locals here in San Francisco are still bitter that Harding Park was renovated several years ago. There are people who, for a of variety reasons, would just a soon pay $25-$30 to play on a badly maintained, worn out golf course as pay $60 to play on an upgraded one. My preference is the latter over the former. The same issues are part of the sub-context of the Sharp Park debate.

But I don't see how these situations are related to Harbor Town, Nicklaus or real-estate driven golf developments. Aren't there are many, many such developments where the golf course has successfully transitioned from being a loss-leader for the developer to being a member-owned golf club?

It seems to me that the biggest problem with creating affordable golf today is that golf requires a lot of land and these days land in any reasonably proximity to where people live is darned expensive.    

DT

Mike_Young

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Re: Did marketing damage GCA and the game?
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2014, 08:09:09 PM »
Mike Y. -

I actually did see that column in the current Golf Digest just the other day. I know some locals here in San Francisco are still bitter that Harding Park was renovated several years ago. There are people who, for a of variety reasons, would just a soon pay $25-$30 to play on a badly maintained, worn out golf course as pay $60 to play on an upgraded one. My preference is the latter over the former. The same issues are part of the sub-context of the Sharp Park debate.

But I don't see how these situations are related to Harbor Town, Nicklaus or real-estate driven golf developments. Aren't there are many, many such developments where the golf course has successfully transitioned from being a loss-leader for the developer to being a member-owned golf club?

It seems to me that the biggest problem with creating affordable golf today is that golf requires a lot of land and these days land in any reasonably proximity to where people live is darned expensive.    

DT

David,
The relationship is to show that when RE was driving golf and all the big money was with the RE projects no one cared at all to deal with the muni type stuff....it's probably the same in many other fields
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

David_Tepper

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Re: Did marketing damage GCA and the game?
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2014, 08:19:46 PM »
Mike Y. -

You can probably say the same thing about affordable housing in many of the major cities in the U.S. Given the run-up in real estate prices here in San Francisco, it is almost impossible to buy a home on a school teacher's salary, even assuming said school teacher had enough money for a downpayment.

Sadly a rising economic tide does not lift all boats equally.

DT

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Did marketing damage GCA and the game?
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2014, 08:21:11 PM »
Mike Y. -

I actually did see that column in the current Golf Digest just the other day. I know some locals here in San Francisco are still bitter that Harding Park was renovated several years ago. There are people who, for a of variety reasons, would just a soon pay $25-$30 to play on a badly maintained, worn out golf course as pay $60 to play on an upgraded one. My preference is the latter over the former. The same issues are part of the sub-context of the Sharp Park debate.

But I don't see how these situations are related to Harbor Town, Nicklaus or real-estate driven golf developments. Aren't there are many, many such developments where the golf course has successfully transitioned from being a loss-leader for the developer to being a member-owned golf club?



It seems to me that the biggest problem with creating affordable golf today is that golf requires a lot of land and these days land in any reasonably proximity to where people live is darned expensive.    

DT

David,

I can understand the locals view on Harding even if the $60 version works for me. SF is a liberal town, but it ain't cheap to live there. The really cheap golf must have been appreciated by many folks.
Tim Weiman

David_Tepper

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Re: Did marketing damage GCA and the game?
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2014, 08:55:42 PM »
Tim -

Yes, San Francisco is indeed a very expensive place to live and do business.

Fortunately Lincoln Park, Sharp Park, Golden Gate Park and the Fleming 9 at Harding do provide less expensive options for golfers here. But the demand on public space is ongoing and Lincoln Park had to fight off a proposal to shrink it to 9 holes and turn the rest into soccer fields and an "event center" just a few years ago.   

DT

Tom_Doak

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Re: Did marketing damage GCA and the game?
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2014, 09:23:22 PM »
Mike:

You left out the fact that GOLF DIGEST converted their list from America's 200 Toughest Courses to America's 100 Greatest Courses in 1969 -- and put Harbour Town in the top 10! -- which is really what encouraged all those marketers to go whole hog.

Of course, that's also what attracted the attention of a 10-year-old me to golf course design when my family visited Hilton Head in 1971.

Mike_Young

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Re: Did marketing damage GCA and the game?
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2014, 09:34:03 PM »
Mike:

You left out the fact that GOLF DIGEST converted their list from America's 200 Toughest Courses to America's 100 Greatest Courses in 1969 -- and put Harbour Town in the top 10! -- which is really what encouraged all those marketers to go whole hog.

Of course, that's also what attracted the attention of a 10-year-old me to golf course design when my family visited Hilton Head in 1971.

I need to see a picture of you at 10 years old.... ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

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