[Jud_T]

The 11th at Crystal Downs is a pretty fine example, at least it is when the green is running below ramming speed... I think the pause that club selection on such holes gives the golfer is pretty sweet.

[Paul Jones]

There is a great uphill Par 3 on a Donald Ross course in Cincy - I cannot think of the name of the course off the top of my head but will look it up.

[Paul Jones]

Found it...

Hyde Park Golf and Country Club - Hole 7

Great uphill Par 3

[Terry Lavin]

My only objection to uphill/blind par-3's is that someone who is fortunate enough to make a hole-in-one is denied the thrill of seeing the ball go in the hole. ;)l

The thrill of finding it in the hole more than makes up for that--I promise.

To this, I can also attest.

[Eric Smith]

My only objection to uphill/blind par-3's is that someone who is fortunate enough to make a hole-in-one is denied the thrill of seeing the ball go in the hole. ;)l

The thrill of finding it in the hole more than makes up for that--I promise.

To this, I can also attest.

+1

After seeing my first go in on a drop shot hole the next one was an uphill hole, aptly named Blind Tom.

Thrilling to sneek up to the hole and spy my ball in the cup.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Thomas the uphill 14th at Burnham is long gone, its been turned about 180 degrees now.

I think it is quite hard to make a really good uphill par 3, it is something I think most architects try to avoid, but sometimes on hilly sites you need them as a way of mitigating steep uphill walks, you can kind of get up 20-25 metres and keep the walking okay. I am trying hard to think of any real good ones in my area and the ones I can think of are pretty crap. The old 11th at Saltford was nice and the old 8th at Clevedon....but they are gone. I don't think 14 @ Wentworth is much of it.

[Tom_Doak]

As Adrian says, it's possible to design a great uphill par-3, but it's harder.  For every example cited here, I could give you three examples of uphill par-3's that aren't very inspiring.  But I certainly don't think the idea of an uphill par-3 is an "abomination".  I don't think I've ever heard another architect say that, for that matter.

Generally speaking, I prefer to work my way uphill on the longer holes -- because getting up 40 feet is less onerous in two or three shots than in one.  But you've probably got to get up there one way or another, so the question is not whether an uphill par-3 is ok, but whether there is a better solution to the puzzle.  If a consultant is only picking on holes he doesn't like, and not solving the problem of how to fix them, what good is he?

[Jim Tang]

Ballyneal's 11th plays uphill, depending on the tee box you select.  As mentioned, Sand Hills has an uphill par 3.  If C&C and Doak are building uphill par 3's in the modern age, I am not sure how you can say they are an "abomination."  Granted, neither of those are to the degree where you can only see the top of the flag stick.

Doesn't Grey Walls also have an uphill par 3?  The sixth, I think?  Another modern course.

[Sean_A]

I guess I am an old timer.  I think its a real positive to have an uphill par 3 on which the green is blind. I agree, they aren't easy to build, but thats the fault of archies, not design concept - as is usually the case for any design concept.  One of my favourites:

#13 at Cavendish is an outstanding one-shotter which works around low ground shy of the green.  What the player can't see from the tee is a bunker protecting against the running hook.  I like that this hazard is blind and in subsequent plays may temp the player to perhaps take on the full frontal assault (now we are talkin' Redan) even if it isn't likely he will succeed.  This hole is a lot tougher than the real Redan!



Ciao
 

[jeffwarne]

I'm a little baffled in an era of endless ways of protecting par, or providing strategy, or encouraging shotmaking, or providing variety,

that an uphill par 3 would cause such a ruckus, or for that matter even be more difficult to design.

An uphill hole potentailly provides mystery, can allow a runup, can test aeriel skills, can test judgement or memory skills,can provide intimidating visuals, and can challenge the best, even at quite short lengths-to say nothing of playing you up that hill, rather than simply walking up it after playing down.

Courses are constantly lengthening and tinkering to provide a modern "challenge"-yet consider an uphill hole unfair or pedestrian ?
-an uphll par 3 should seemingly be as common as a downhill one.




I can think of numerous bland, boring drop shot par 3's that litter the landscape.
Were they "easy to design"?

[Tom_Doak]

I'm a little baffled in an era of endless ways of protecting par, or providing strategy, or encouraging shotmaking, or providing variety,

that an uphill par 3 would cause such a ruckus, or for that matter even be more difficult to design.

An uphill hole potentailly provides mystery, can allow a runup, can test aeriel skills, can test judgement or memory skills,can provide intimidating visuals, and can challenge the best, even at quite short lengths-to say nothing of playing you up that hill, rather than simply walking up it after playing down.

Courses are constantly lengthening and tinkering to provide a modern "challenge"-yet consider an uphill hole unfair or pedestrian ?
-an uphll par 3 should seemingly be as common as a downhill one.


I can think of numerous bland, boring drop shot par 3's that litter the landscape.
Were they "easy to design"?

Jeff:

I've heard a lot of complaints over the years about "too many uphill approaches".

Many modern golfers equate uphill approaches with blindness ... and of course, we have to contend with Nicklaus' famous assertion that he would prefer 18 downhill holes.  Jack actually counted how many uphill shots there would be at Sebonack, so I would be aware of them.

In a lot of modern designs, half the par-3's revolve around water hazards, and you aren't going to have many uphill ones among those.  Off the top of my head, among the best modern courses:

Sand Hills has one uphill 3, the 13th
Pacific Dunes has two, the 5th and 11th [not very much uphill, but they are]
Friars Head has one, the 8th
Whistling Straits has none that I recall
Ballyneal has one, the 11th [mentioned above]
Old Macdonald has none
Sebonack has none


The best older courses:

Pine Valley has one, the 5th [it's a doozy]
Augusta has none
Cypress Point has one, the 7th
Shinnecock Hills has one, the 11th [it's a doozy]
National has none
Merion has one, if the 3rd is uphill
Riviera has one, the 6th
Pebble Beach used to have one, they eliminated it


So ... it is possible to build a great uphill par-3, but I don't think you would say that the best courses are chock full of them.  I will give you that the older courses' examples above are better than the newer courses' examples.

[jonathan_becker]

#7 Royal Melbourne West
#4 Royal Melbourne East
#15 Kingston Heath
#14 and #16 Victoria
#6 and #11 at St Andrews Beach

[Pat Burke]

One of my all time favorite par threes is #15 at Kingston Heath

[jeffwarne]

Tom,
Interesting you mentioned 15 of the greatest courses in the world, and they currently have about 10 uphill par 3's, of which 2 are great,
or "doozies" as you suggest.

20% are doozies..

I'd be willing to bet that 20% of the endless supply of downhill and drop shot par 3's,....aren't "doozies"


Are you sure 13 at NGLA isn't uphill?

and yes I'm going to hear about it when the members return to find another par 3 is now   ;)uphill

[Bill_McBride]

I like the occasional uphill par three, so I disagree with the notion that uphill par threes are an abomination.

But do modern architects think they are?   I don't get out as much as some, but seems to me that uphill par threes have become a rarity, even among quality architects.  Are any of our quality architects building them with any regularity?

Funny you didn't mention #15 at Rustic Canyon.   I know it's not universally beloved.  . But it is an interesting hole between two stout par 4s.   And it certainly qualifies as uphill. 

[Peter Pallotta]

The 11th at Crystal Downs is a pretty fine example, at least it is when the green is running below ramming speed... I think the pause that club selection on such holes gives the golfer is pretty sweet.

I played that hole and I agree. And it reminds me of how highly I thought of Crystal's Par 3s altogether. Honestly, when I left after my round, I remembered (and valued) the set of Par 3s more than I did the many par 4s (even though i recognized how interesting and well designed those par 4s were). Which in turn reminds me that I don't think Crystal's Par 3s are 'spectacular', but that's my point, i.e. Par 3s don't have to be spectacular to be special and memorable. I think many moderns might be -- in thinking about Par 3s in general and uphill par 3s in particular -- trying too hard to make/find 'great' holes and then shying away from them when they can't. No need for that, I don't think: 'good' is good enough....or at least it used to be.

Peter

[Tom_Doak]

Peter:

Some truth in what you've said there at the end.

The interesting thing is that I'm the member of Crystal Downs, and maybe it's biggest booster, yet I didn't think to include it in my listing above.  I've never thought much about that two of its par-3's are uphill.

[Jaeger Kovich]

#2 and #4, the 2 par 3's on the front of Prairie Dunes are certainly uphill... And the 10th and 15th are questionable above the tee as well, and Prairie Dunes is noted for excellent one shot holes

I think the reason #2 is a favorite is because even though its uphill, the green is so steep you can see more than enough to be able to tell whats going on.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Donald Ross's 4th, 7th and 14th at Mountain Ridge.

Fazio's 9th at Jupiter Hills

Tillinghast's 10th at Baltusrol's Upper

AWT's 3rd on Ridgewood West, 8th on Ridgewood Center

AWT's 13th at WFW

AWT's 18th at Forest Hills

[Jaeger Kovich]

The Addington #1 is a pretty memorable starting hole.

[Jim Nugent]

Why would an uphill par 3 be different from an uphill approach shot on a par 4 or par 5?  i.e. if the architect thinks uphill par 3s are so bad, does he feel the same about any uphill approaches? 

[Sean_A]

Tom,
Interesting you mentioned 15 of the greatest courses in the world, and they currently have about 10 uphill par 3's, of which 2 are great,
or "doozies" as you suggest.

20% are doozies..

I'd be willing to bet that 20% of the endless supply of downhill and drop shot par 3's,....aren't "doozies"


Are you sure 13 at NGLA isn't uphill?

and yes I'm going to hear about it when the members return to find another par 3 is now   ;)uphill

Jeff

Interesting point about drop shotters - one of my least favourite type of holes and very difficult to design well imo. 

All - we are talking about uphillers where the green is blind - yes?  I get the impression most examples mentioned aren't flag viewing only, just merely uphill.  I haven't come across that many examples of severe uphill par 3s, but it seems to me they must beof the type which allows a run-up.  At my old club there are 3 quite severe uphill par 3s, two of which have blind greens with flags on view.  The short one, maybe 140 yards is terrible.  Strictly a linking hole in an awkward part of the property.  The other is about 195 and I think an excellent hole which also partly tackles an awkward bit of terrain.  Interestingly, the transition to the top of the ridge is two holes.  The other being a blind drive short par 4 that is reachable in one; both are very good holes. 

Of course, we can't forget Redan, probably the most clever flag view only par 3 I have come across.  Interesting that Cavendish's 13th is a Redan type - again offering the option of banging a low shot in.

Finally, there is the great little Road Hole at Kington among an excellent set of 3s. 


I honestly can't fathom why any archie would try to avoid holes I have mentioned - seems loopy to me. 

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Thomas the uphill 14th at Burnham is long gone, its been turned about 180 degrees now.

I think it is quite hard to make a really good uphill par 3, it is something I think most architects try to avoid, but sometimes on hilly sites you need them as a way of mitigating steep uphill walks, you can kind of get up 20-25 metres and keep the walking okay. I am trying hard to think of any real good ones in my area and the ones I can think of are pretty crap. The old 11th at Saltford was nice and the old 8th at Clevedon....but they are gone. I don't think 14 @ Wentworth is much of it.

Adrian,

B&B 14 seemed uphill when I was there a few weeks ago but then again I'm a short hitter and it was into a howling wind!

I remember playing Clevedon many times, must be circa 40 yrs ago, and your mention of the previous 8th got me looking at the clubs website.

The course seems to have changed considerably. I recall playing north along a high ridge with the coast to the left for a few holes, then a drop-shot par-3 with a road behind, then back up and down a deep valley before climbing up inland onto another ridge for a couple of holes and then what seemed a severe drop-shot par-4 from up by the castle, then back to the clubhouse. I looked on Googlemap and the course doesn't seem to be like that anymore, lots more holes up behind the castle. Any thoughts?

atb

[Sean_A]

Thomas the uphill 14th at Burnham is long gone, its been turned about 180 degrees now.

I think it is quite hard to make a really good uphill par 3, it is something I think most architects try to avoid, but sometimes on hilly sites you need them as a way of mitigating steep uphill walks, you can kind of get up 20-25 metres and keep the walking okay. I am trying hard to think of any real good ones in my area and the ones I can think of are pretty crap. The old 11th at Saltford was nice and the old 8th at Clevedon....but they are gone. I don't think 14 @ Wentworth is much of it.

Adrian,

B&B 14 seemed uphill when I was there a few weeks ago but then again I'm a short hitter and it was into a howling wind!

atb

Burnham's 14th is definitely uphill, but the golfer can definitely see the putting surface  . 

Adrian - you need to get over to Burnham and lower the ladies tee on the 14th.  I never liked how it partially blocks the view from the daily tee. 

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Thomas & Sean - Sorry I got confused here. The old 14th at B&B used to be quite uphill, you saw half a stick and I thought you meant that. It went circa 76 as I recall, they sold land off and reconfigured 12,13 and 14. The new 14th is todays' current but played in a total opposite direction (nearly 180 degrees). The green site is the same place(ish) but its all been mashed up to look old.

I have not thought of that hole being uphill, I suspect it is 1 or 2 metres higher and as Sean alludes you can see the green. Without sounding stupid "an uphill hole is not really an uphill hole if you can see the green"..if you can see my point and on looking at the pics of great uphill holes, yes they are but they are all only marginally uphill and they tend to have that visibility.

When you get a piece of land and its on two levels with say a 100 foot contour change over a quick distance it really is a problem to an architect...not the one coming down but the one uphill hole sometimes the best result solution is to put ***one shite one in*** You see this a lot on the Costa del Sol.

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