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Mark Saltzman

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Royal Melbourne (East) - A Photo Tour!! - Hole 13 Up!
« on: March 18, 2014, 11:57:43 PM »




Hole 1: Par 4, 304 Metres

One of six holes on the East Course that joins 12 holes from the West Course to form the Composite Course, the East's 1st is an excellent short par-4 and clearly the better of the opening holes on property.  The tee shot is, visually, uninspiring playing over what was once the 7th green on the West Course and is now broken ground.  The 45m wide 1st fairway falls off sharply to the left thus making this fairway bunker, which is shared with 8 West, a must challenge from the tee if the golfer hopes to play his approach from the fairway.




A miss in the fairway bunker is a disaster, but even an approach from the ideal position is no simple task.  Like the approach to 3 West, the golfer can play this approach with nearly every club in the bag and a swale short of the green will certainly complicate the task, though an aerial approach is more likely to succeed here, thanks to the back to front tilt of the green.




« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 03:36:24 PM by Mark Saltzman »

Tyler Kearns

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Re: Royal Melbourne (East) - A Photo Tour!! - Hole 1 Up!
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2014, 12:42:58 AM »
The East Course at Royal Melbourne was a real surprise to me when I made my pilgrimage Down Under, and it stands up very well against any course in Australia.  It is a shame they've had to alter the original design to accommodate adjacent property owners, but regardless, a good many standout holes make this course a must-see when playing in Melbourne.

TK 

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Royal Melbourne (East) - A Photo Tour!! - Hole 1 Up!
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2014, 11:16:51 AM »
The East Course at Royal Melbourne was a real surprise to me when I made my pilgrimage Down Under, and it stands up very well against any course in Australia.  It is a shame they've had to alter the original design to accommodate adjacent property owners, but regardless, a good many standout holes make this course a must-see when playing in Melbourne.

TK 

TK,

I'm with you here.  The stretches from 1-4 and 10-12 are about as good as it gets. 

If someone said East was the third best course in Australia I'd have a hard time disagreeing.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Royal Melbourne (East) - A Photo Tour!! - Hole 1 Up!
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2014, 01:18:00 PM »


If someone said East was the third best course in Australia I'd have a hard time disagreeing.

Does this mean you've got it ahead of Barnbougle, or Kingston Heath?

DMoriarty

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Re: Royal Melbourne (East) - A Photo Tour!! - Hole 1 Up!
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2014, 01:36:22 PM »
Tom, I know you mean well and I know you have great respect for the courses at Royal Melbourne (and are apparently doing work there,) but don't you think it makes the discussion kind of difficult and awkward when you are so often inserting your courses into the conversation?

For once I'd like to see how one of these conversations would progress without it turning into a pissing or ranking contest between whatever is being discussed and Barnboogle or some other of your courses.  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Royal Melbourne (East) - A Photo Tour!! - Hole 1 Up!
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2014, 02:14:16 PM »


If someone said East was the third best course in Australia I'd have a hard time disagreeing.

Does this mean you've got it ahead of Barnbougle, or Kingston Heath?

Tom, Kingston Heath.

I think Royal Melbourne West and Barnbougle are considerably ahead of anything else.

I'd put LF, KH and RME in a tight group for 3-5.

All just based on my preferences, opinions, etc, etc!

Tom_Doak

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Re: Royal Melbourne (East) - A Photo Tour!! - Hole 1 Up!
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2014, 02:20:04 PM »
Tom, I know you mean well and I know you have great respect for the courses at Royal Melbourne (and are apparently doing work there,) but don't you think it makes the discussion kind of difficult and awkward when you are so often inserting your courses into the conversation?

For once I'd like to see how one of these conversations would progress without it turning into a pissing or ranking contest between whatever is being discussed and Barnboogle or some other of your courses.  

David:

Well, we just supervised a bunch of restoration work at Royal Melbourne East, so the discussion was already about my work.

I was really just asking Mark if he thought Royal Melbourne East was as good as Kingston Heath -- which isn't the popular viewpoint.  But the way he'd made his statement, I wasn't sure if he meant to compare it with Kingston Heath or Barnbougle, so I asked.  There is no point in comparing Royal Melbourne East and Barnbougle -- they are very different animals -- and that wasn't where I was going.

DMoriarty

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Re: Royal Melbourne (East) - A Photo Tour!! - Hole 1 Up!
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2014, 02:48:39 PM »
Thanks for the explanation, Tom. I do appreciate your input as does everyone I am sure. I just wonder if perhaps we ought not be all Tom Doak, all the time.  As you say there is no real point in comparing RME and Barnboogle, anyway.

Well, we just supervised a bunch of restoration work at Royal Melbourne East, so the discussion was already about my work.

Yes, as I mentioned in my post, I've heard you have been doing restoration work at Royal Melbourne East.  I hope you don't mind me saying, but it seems a bit immodest and not really consistent with your approach to restoration when you say that the discussion Royal Melbourne East "was already about my work."  I was hoping the thread was about the golf course generally, and not specifically about your restorative efforts, which I have no doubt are terrific.

Anyway, no need to belabor the point.  Sorry for the thread jack.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 02:52:53 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

jonathan_becker

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Re: Royal Melbourne (East) - A Photo Tour!! - Hole 1 Up!
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2014, 03:55:26 PM »
Mark,

First hole, short approach, could you hear the "thud" of the ball landing on the green?  I never, ever, got sick of hearing that sound in Melbourne.  :)

Tom_Doak

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Re: Royal Melbourne (East) - A Photo Tour!! - Hole 1 Up!
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2014, 04:36:54 PM »
I hope you don't mind me saying, but it seems a bit immodest and not really consistent with your approach to restoration when you say that the discussion Royal Melbourne East "was already about my work."  I was hoping the thread was about the golf course generally, and not specifically about your restorative efforts, which I have no doubt are terrific.

First you accuse me of inserting my work into the discussion by mentioning Barnbougle; now you accuse me of being immodest by pointing out my language in saying that we'd done work at Royal Melbourne East.  I'm happy to let this discussion go back to the merits of the golf course, as long as you quit casting aspersions my way, thanks.

I'm on record about a million times in saying that architects should not take design credit for restorations.  I noticed in the new GOLFWEEK classic courses list that the courses we consult on are not credited to us, but that many other architects take credit for the same sort of work.  Maybe you should go pick on some of them, instead.

DMoriarty

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Re: Royal Melbourne (East) - A Photo Tour!! - Hole 1 Up!
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2014, 04:49:42 PM »
I am familiar with (and appreciate) your standards for restorations and know that you don't believe architects should take credit for restorations, which is why I was so surprised you wrote that a discussion of RME was "already about my work."  The discussion wasn't about your work.  If another architect had made such a claim you'd be all over it.  

As for the Golfweek list, I haven't looked at it, nor do I plan to.  But if these other designers come on here and claim these old great course as their work, I would be glad to "pick on them."  And I have in the past, although the usual situation is that they take credit for restoring a course when they haven't done anything of the sort.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 05:02:27 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

RJ_Daley

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Re: Royal Melbourne (East) - A Photo Tour!! - Hole 1 Up!
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2014, 02:27:03 AM »
I'd prefer to see the local golfers that play these courses often that are being sorted out and ranked in a manner such as 3-5 in Australia and the like, give more learned comment.  Let's face it, some people have a facility to play a course once and are skilled golfers and can come away with "some" specific comments of how good this or that is in some detail.  But, on the old 'hit and run' scale of ranking, I wouldn't put too much credibility in such a proclamation of where great courses of similar style and design philosophy rank in such a narrow band. 

Now I am told and can see that Mark Saltzman is a good golfer, and a golfing machine in sheer stamina.   But, if you don't play a group of courses like we are speaking of in terms of RME, RMW, KH, or add other locals like Met, Commonwealth, and the like, on some sort of long term regular basis, there is just no way you can truly say down to such specificity which is in a conversation of top 5-10 in OZ or whatever and comment on specific merits. 

I just played KH and RME within a span of a few days, and frankly, without photos to jog my memory, they are one breathtaking set of what we have come to call MacKenzie style bunkering arrays through the FW and around greens, and funky cleaver greens that are a blurry dream in my mind.  I couldn't just have that conversation with anyone and say: well this hole plays definitively like this or that.  All I can say is that the work of the array and apparent optional ways to play a particular hole were present or notable as I played them.  Yet, I couldn't tell you without the yardage graphic card, and photos that it was say 12, or 14th hole on which course   Now that may be some form of GCA.com heresy to admit, but I simply have a hard time believing proclamations that something ranks in such a way in such a narrow field of courses to be considered.  When you play a great hole, and if you are good enough or lucky enough to hit the shot you thought was the best option off the tee- and made the shot, then on that and hit one approach (in some of these cases an approach, an approach and yet a long putt or sand bunker blast) can you really say you now know how that hole plays in all its potential cleverly designed glory?  All you get is one snapshot in time in one set of conditions.

So, let's hear from the locals who have played the courses multiple times, before we start assigning 3-5 range sort of rankings.   :)

For the record, RME left me with 'an impression' that the course is harder and more varied in playing demanding shots and skills simply because there is more elevation changes than KH; felt longer, and the greens seemed more contoured.  But the style was one big combined celebration of what is in my mind, the MacKenzie-Australian look and maintenance meld.  I'd probably be more suited to playing on KH on a regular basis just pairing my age with the more comfortable walk and feeling I would score better there if I got more knowledgeable on its breaks and distances and angles.  Perhaps if I was younger, and a better player, RM would be more in my wheel house.   ::) ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Royal Melbourne (East) - A Photo Tour!! - Hole 1 Up!
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2014, 08:56:21 AM »
I'd prefer to see the local golfers that play these courses often that are being sorted out and ranked in a manner such as 3-5 in Australia and the like, give more learned comment.  Let's face it, some people have a facility to play a course once and are skilled golfers and can come away with "some" specific comments of how good this or that is in some detail.  But, on the old 'hit and run' scale of ranking, I wouldn't put too much credibility in such a proclamation of where great courses of similar style and design philosophy rank in such a narrow band. 

Now I am told and can see that Mark Saltzman is a good golfer, and a golfing machine in sheer stamina.   But, if you don't play a group of courses like we are speaking of in terms of RME, RMW, KH, or add other locals like Met, Commonwealth, and the like, on some sort of long term regular basis, there is just no way you can truly say down to such specificity which is in a conversation of top 5-10 in OZ or whatever and comment on specific merits. 

I just played KH and RME within a span of a few days, and frankly, without photos to jog my memory, they are one breathtaking set of what we have come to call MacKenzie style bunkering arrays through the FW and around greens, and funky cleaver greens that are a blurry dream in my mind.  I couldn't just have that conversation with anyone and say: well this hole plays definitively like this or that.  All I can say is that the work of the array and apparent optional ways to play a particular hole were present or notable as I played them.  Yet, I couldn't tell you without the yardage graphic card, and photos that it was say 12, or 14th hole on which course   Now that may be some form of GCA.com heresy to admit, but I simply have a hard time believing proclamations that something ranks in such a way in such a narrow field of courses to be considered.  When you play a great hole, and if you are good enough or lucky enough to hit the shot you thought was the best option off the tee- and made the shot, then on that and hit one approach (in some of these cases an approach, an approach and yet a long putt or sand bunker blast) can you really say you now know how that hole plays in all its potential cleverly designed glory?  All you get is one snapshot in time in one set of conditions.

So, let's hear from the locals who have played the courses multiple times, before we start assigning 3-5 range sort of rankings.   :)

For the record, RME left me with 'an impression' that the course is harder and more varied in playing demanding shots and skills simply because there is more elevation changes than KH; felt longer, and the greens seemed more contoured.  But the style was one big combined celebration of what is in my mind, the MacKenzie-Australian look and maintenance meld.  I'd probably be more suited to playing on KH on a regular basis just pairing my age with the more comfortable walk and feeling I would score better there if I got more knowledgeable on its breaks and distances and angles.  Perhaps if I was younger, and a better player, RM would be more in my wheel house.   ::) ;D

Well, a dozen posts in and only one or two comments that actually relates directly to Royal Melbourne East. 

RJ, what was the point of your post?  All you've done is repeat the long debated question on this site of whether anyone is qualified to rate a course based on a single play.  Of course, if I were you, I'd listen to guys like Mike Clayton, Matt Mollica, Scott Warren -- guys with great eyes for architecture and who have seen many of the best courses in Australia multiple times.  But, I wouldn't take any one of their opinions over my own, even having seen most of these courses only once.

Regarding Kingston Heath and Royal Melbourne you say, they are one breathtaking set of what we have come to call MacKenzie style bunkering arrays through the FW and around greens, and funky cleaver greens that are a blurry dream in my mind.  Well, that's not how the golf courses sit in my mind.  In fact, pick any of the 700-odd holes I played while away and I'll have a conversation about it with you.

David_Elvins

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Re: Royal Melbourne (East) - A Photo Tour!! - Hole 1 Up!
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2014, 09:12:59 AM »
Thanks for another great thread, Mark.

IMO the first green is one of the great example of a green that contains tilt and contour.  The tilt gives the hole a broad and coherent strategy.  The contour gives it  almost unlimited interest and variety.

Tilt and contour are combined magnificently on many of the west course greens.  If the east course is let down by anything it is someblander greens on the outer paddock imo.
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Royal Melbourne (East) - A Photo Tour!! - Hole 1 Up!
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2014, 10:31:39 AM »
The first green has some severe spots -- it's the one where a bad hole location caused a round of the Australian Open to be called off mid-day, +/- 20 years ago.  There are also some great hole locations very close to the bunkers, which can make it quite tough in spite of the length.

This is one of those holes that would seem to be at risk of being overpowered because it's so short -- the angles make it almost impossible to get a tee shot to stay on the green, but in most places, the pros would be happy to knock it in the greenside bunkers and make 3 or 4 from there.  However the depth of the bunkers, and the tough hole locations right next to them, make that a potentially disastrous play on the 1st.

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: Royal Melbourne (East) - A Photo Tour!! - Hole 1 Up!
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2014, 11:02:09 AM »
I probably got to watch more of RME1 during last November's toonamint broadcast than any other hole, and I was struck by how well it held up to the floggers.

Something I've been meaning to start a thread on that this green complex captures so well is the spatial relationship of the bunkers to the green. Bunkers provide an anchor for the eye, a measuring stick if you will by which to compare against nearby features such as the green proper. The size of the bunkers, larger than what the human mind is accustomed to, leads the golfer to believe the green is smaller than it is.

The effect seems to heightened when bunker asymmetry is employed (bunkering on just one side of the green); I think it's because bunkers "bookending" the green also serve to define the green. By leaving one side of the green open or "unfinished," the human brain is unable to "gist" the concept of the green -- it can't fill in or complete the picture. The negative space presents an open void. As a result, the green's lack of definition makes it appear smaller when the only frame of comparison is a bunker larger than the mind's eye is conditioned to see.

In addition to the RM courses I think a few holes at Palmetto do a good job illustrating this form of deception.

I feel this is another form of visual deception used to perceptually shrink the green.
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Peter Pallotta

Re: Royal Melbourne (East) - A Photo Tour!! - Hole 1 Up!
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2014, 11:17:54 AM »
Very nice post, Mark, and a very good analysis it seems to me of how things work/are percieved. Your thread from a long while back, the 'carnivorous bunker' thread -- were some of the holes/bunkers at RM part of your thinking? (In the case of the 1st, it feels as if the green are 'meant to be' bigger, but that the bunkers have indeed eaten into it.)  

Peter
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 11:34:31 AM by PPallotta »

Tom_Doak

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Re: Royal Melbourne (East) - A Photo Tour!! - Hole 1 Up!
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2014, 11:36:19 AM »
The effect seems to heightened when bunker asymmetry is employed (bunkering on just one side of the green); I think it's because bunkers "bookending" the green also serve to define the green. By leaving one side of the green open or "unfinished," the human brain is unable to "gist" the concept of the green -- it can't fill in or complete the picture. The negative space presents an open void. As a result, the green's lack of definition makes it appear smaller when the only frame of comparison is a bunker larger than the mind's eye is conditioned to see.

In addition to the RM courses I think a few holes at Palmetto do a good job illustrating this form of deception.

I feel this is another form of visual deception used to perceptually shrink the green.

Mark:

I've been designing holes for years with asymmetrical bunkering at the greens, but I've never thought of it as visually shrinking the green.

My feeling has always been that in addition to offering a "bail-out" option for weaker golfers, which it does, that visually such an arrangement causes even the better golfers to feel there is more room to miss to one side, consciously or subconsciously, thus causing them to favor one side instead of focusing on the hole location itself.

All of this goes back to something Pete Dye said to me long ago, in frustration -- that the best players on average hit their approaches within 15 feet of the hole, and you can't really put hazards within 15 feet of the hole.  So, the trick is to get inside the players' heads, and try to get them to aim away from the flag.  Pete does it with intimidation [water close to one side].  I do it by arranging the bunkers to offer them an "out", thinking I can get them to take an "out" they don't need ... and by putting enough tilt in the green that they'd rather be twenty feet below the hole than ten feet above it.  In other words, I do it by imitating Royal Melbourne.

DMoriarty

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Re: Royal Melbourne (East) - A Photo Tour!! - Hole 1 Up!
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2014, 12:08:11 PM »
How deep are the green side bunkers?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

John Mayhugh

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Re: Royal Melbourne (East) - A Photo Tour!! - Hole 1 Up!
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2014, 12:14:18 PM »
How deep are the green side bunkers?

Not shallow.



jonathan_becker

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Re: Royal Melbourne (East) - A Photo Tour!! - Hole 1 Up!
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2014, 12:18:48 PM »
On the tee at the first....smart men it seems


DMoriarty

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Re: Royal Melbourne (East) - A Photo Tour!! - Hole 1 Up!
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2014, 12:40:26 PM »
Not shallow.

Thanks John.   I am just trying to get a sense of why the bunkers there seem to be so much more effective strategically than so many bunkers here.  Is it just a matter of depth, or is it also the green slopes?  Sand type?   Distance from the position in the bunker to the pin? 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Royal Melbourne (East) - A Photo Tour!! - Hole 1 Up!
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2014, 12:44:56 PM »
David:

My guess is part of the answer has to do with the way they are maintained so that balls funnel down to the flat areas (they tamp down the sloped areas).  You're not going to find many uphill lies with balls generally feeding away from the green resulting in longer shots with more elevation required to find the green surface.  And they are very deep in places.

There's not a lot of "splashing" it out at RM.

Sven

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tyler Kearns

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Re: Royal Melbourne (East) - A Photo Tour!! - Hole 1 Up!
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2014, 12:46:50 PM »
The opening tee shot at Royal Melbourne East plays over some broken ground to a pretty strong right-to-left sloping fairway.



TK

John Mayhugh

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Re: Royal Melbourne (East) - A Photo Tour!! - Hole 1 Up!
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2014, 01:21:34 PM »
Thanks John.   I am just trying to get a sense of why the bunkers there seem to be so much more effective strategically than so many bunkers here.  Is it just a matter of depth, or is it also the green slopes?  Sand type?   Distance from the position in the bunker to the pin? 

Slopes are part of it, but more than anything else greenside bunkers are not off to the side, but almost part of the green.  This aerial of the 1st at RME illustrates that.   Without a wide collar as a buffer between the green surface and bunker, the bunker gets effectively larger.

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