Greens 'iron' - a useful tool???

[Thomas Dai]

I guess this is a little OT, being more maintenance than architecture, but for those with experience of using them, do you reckon a greens 'iron' is a useful tool?
atb

[Jon Wiggett]

Yes, if used as a substitute to mowing whilst maintaining normal speeds but not if used to increase the speeds beyond what the HOC would attain.

Jon

[Ryan Coles]

Yes, if used as a substitute to mowing whilst maintaining normal speeds but not if used to increase the speeds beyond what the HOC would attain.

Jon

Why not Jon? Particularly if keeping mowing heights up to encourage bents and if used sparingly around championships for both speed and trueness?

[Jon Wiggett]

Ryan,

I think we are on the same page but that I have not been clear enough. It is a good tool to use to maintain speeds whilst increasing HOC but not to purely speed up the green speed. If your greens are cut at say 3mm and stimping at 12ft then I agree it would be beneficial to use an iron to maintain the speed and raise the HOC to 3.5mm. If it is used to increase the speed further and keep the same HOC that has to be detrimental to the sward and I am against that.

[Mark Chaplin]

An iron enables us to have a HOC of 5mm yet maintain 10-10.5 on the greens.

[Sean_A]

An iron enables us to have a HOC of 5mm yet maintain 10-10.5 on the greens.

Chappers

Yes, we too have gone more to rolling especially in winter to keep the green heights near 5mm (maybe two cuts and two rolls per week in winter) yet still rolling at a good speed, if slightly slow.  A few weeks ago they were flying for some reason. 

Ciao

 

[Jason Topp]

Most of the courses around here have started rolling in the last 4-5 years and it is a big improvement except where the speeds get out of control on old greens.

[Thomas Dai]

How long do folk reckon it would it take 1 man with 1 machine to Green Iron all 18-holes on an average (say 6,200 yds) length course plus do the a putting/chipping green as well?
atb

[Jason Thurman]

I was playing at a high end private in the US last fall and watched as they rolled their greens. I don't know what the average green "iron" or roller looks like, but this one was insanely fast. I'd have been white-knuckling when it accelerated and stopped. It didn't take more than a minute to single-roll the green I watched, and it's about 5500 square feet.

Based on that, I would assume rolling doesn't take all that long aside from the travel to each green, but the machine this particular club uses may not be typical.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

How long do folk reckon it would it take 1 man with 1 machine to Green Iron all 18-holes on an average (say 6,200 yds) length course plus do the a putting/chipping green as well?
atb

3.5 acres should take around 3-3.5 hrs with a good operator

[RDecker]

Most of the time about an hour per acre is a reasonable time allowance.  Most 18 hole clubs have gone to 2 rollers to speed up the process and allow them flexibility to roll before events... Another popular technique is to positionally roll, that is roll 3 or 4 passes on either side of that days pin to accomplish the desired effect and speed up the process.  It's believed that most golfers judge the green's speed by how they roll within the last 10 or so feet of the cup so rolling that zone can be effective and it also helps smooth out that "higher traffic" area too.

[Matt Neff]

If it is used to increase the speed further and keep the same HOC that has to be detrimental to the sward and I am against that.

Jon,

Would you elaborate on this?  I've never heard anyone say this before so I'm curious to hear your reasoning.

[Jon Wiggett]

Matt,

even rolling with a green iron has a detrimental effect on the sward though many will not admit this. If it is used as a way of raising the HOC but keeping the same green speed than it is my belief that the benefits of raising the HOC outweigh the negative of rolling but keeping the same HOC and rolling to increase speed will have an overall negative effect which is why I am against that.

Hope this explains.

Jon

[Anthony_Nysse]

Matt,

even rolling with a green iron has a detrimental effect on the sward though many will not admit this. If it is used as a way of raising the HOC but keeping the same green speed than it is my belief that the benefits of raising the HOC outweigh the negative of rolling but keeping the same HOC and rolling to increase speed will have an overall negative effect which is why I am against that.

Hope this explains.

Jon

What, compaction? That's what venting is for, which most courses that roll aggressively, also do monthly. Mowing AND rolling during times of heat stress can have a negative effect, yes.

Greens Iron


Speed Roller


Salso


Salso Fwy roller

[Jon Wiggett]

Matt,

even rolling with a green iron has a detrimental effect on the sward though many will not admit this. If it is used as a way of raising the HOC but keeping the same green speed than it is my belief that the benefits of raising the HOC outweigh the negative of rolling but keeping the same HOC and rolling to increase speed will have an overall negative effect which is why I am against that.

Hope this explains.

Jon

What, compaction? That's what venting is for, which most courses that roll aggressively, also do monthly. Mowing AND rolling during times of heat stress can have a negative effect, yes.

Greens Iron


Speed Roller


Salso


Salso Fwy roller

Anthony,

It like taking uppers and downers. Yes they compensate but it would be better not to take either unless there is some benefit which is what my post clearly stated if you read it, think about what it is saying and keep it context. Nice pictures

Jon

[Anthony_Nysse]

Matt,

even rolling with a green iron has a detrimental effect on the sward though many will not admit this. If it is used as a way of raising the HOC but keeping the same green speed than it is my belief that the benefits of raising the HOC outweigh the negative of rolling but keeping the same HOC and rolling to increase speed will have an overall negative effect which is why I am against that.

Hope this explains.

Jon

What, compaction? That's what venting is for, which most courses that roll aggressively, also do monthly. Mowing AND rolling during times of heat stress can have a negative effect, yes.

Greens Iron


Speed Roller


Salso


Salso Fwy roller

Anthony,

It like taking uppers and downers. Yes they compensate but it would be better not to take either unless there is some benefit which is what my post clearly stated if you read it, think about what it is saying and keep it context. Nice pictures

Jon

Nothing taken out of context, John. I can read very well, thank you. There are numerous benefits to rolling. We roll 6x a week in season. Speed difference of 4-6" with rolling vs just rolling or just mowing. Not just keep our speed where want it, but also smooth and firmness. It's all relevant to what your HOC, I suppose. If you're mowing below .100" in the heat of the summer, of the cool of the winter on a UD, yes, you will have issues. I do not see any issues mowing and rolling 4-6x a week when your HOC is .115" or higher. It's more weather dependent.

[Jon Wiggett]

Anthony,

did you raise the HOC and keep the same speed or keep the HOC and increase the speed. That is my point. As to your reading abilities I am not so sure they are as good as you think

John 

[Anthony_Nysse]

Anthony,

did you raise the HOC and keep the same speed or keep the HOC and increase the speed. That is my point. As to your reading abilities I am not so sure they are as good as you think

John 

Nope. We don't need to mow ultra low for various reasons. We found a HOC that works for us and along with a roll, achieve the speed we need. If someone tells you they are NOT rolling for speed, theyre lying. We all know that a roller on a green does just that.

[Jon Wiggett]

Anthony,

did you raise the HOC and keep the same speed or keep the HOC and increase the speed. That is my point. As to your reading abilities I am not so sure they are as good as you think

John 

Nope. We don't need to mow ultra low for various reasons. We found a HOC that works for us and along with a roll, achieve the speed we need. If someone tells you they are NOT rolling for speed, theyre lying. We all know that a roller on a green does just that.

When I rolled it was to allow me to cut 1.5mm higher and still have the same speed which was better for the sward overall so you can call me a liar if you want but I did it for an improved sward and not for speed.

Jon

[Steve Okula]

Jon,

I wouldn't call you a liar but you are contradicting yourself. If you don't use the roller to gain speed, then why not just raise the HOC 1.5mm, leave the roller off, and speed be damned?

[SL_Solow]

A lovely semantic argument which has become personal.  Jon, you suggest that you are rolling to allow you to maintain an appropriate speed with a higher cut.  One can call that rolling to get a higher cut by assuming that the speed is a given or if one assumes that the height of the cut is the given, then one would be rolling to increase speed.  Either way, the club is seeking a means to achieve its perceived ideal combination of speed, smoothness and height of cut.  One can argue about the ideal formula, e.g. what is an ideal speed or what is a healthy height, but it does not appear that there is any significant dispute about the tools or their effectiveness.

[Lou_Duran]

I was under the impression that the "evidence" dismissing the compaction problem from rolling was at least as strong as that in support of anthropogenic forcing of global warming.  And unlike East Anglia, I haven't heard that Michigan State's extensive research was cooked.

I am not a professional turf guy, but I play enough golf in varying conditions to note the benefits of well-maintained greens.  Rolling is an important part of that process, making the roll much smoother.  I don't know what impact if any it has on grain, but putting on recently rolled greens, the ball seems to hold the line better.   

[Steve Okula]

There are numerous published studies on the effects of lightweight rollers on putting greens.

Here is an article by Dr. Thomas Nikolai, probably the foremost researcher on putting green speeds in the business, citing the results of several of the papers.

http://www.truturf.net.au/pdf/editorials/9.pdf

The bottom line is that lightweight rollers do increase green speed (whether or not that is the intention) and that they have an insignificant effect on water infiltration, bulk density, and compaction, or at least it is so when they are used according to recommendations.

[Matt Neff]

Matt,

even rolling with a green iron has a detrimental effect on the sward though many will not admit this. If it is used as a way of raising the HOC but keeping the same green speed than it is my belief that the benefits of raising the HOC outweigh the negative of rolling but keeping the same HOC and rolling to increase speed will have an overall negative effect which is why I am against that.

Hope this explains.

Jon

Interesting opinion.  Are you basing this on personal experience or is there some research that shows this?  As Steve said, Tom Nikolai from Michigan State and others have shown that lightweight rolling doesn't increase compaction or decrease turfgrass quality.  Nikolai and others have also shown other significant benefits including reduced LDS and dollar spot severity which would at least suggest that there may be other plant health benefits.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,

I wouldn't call you a liar but you are contradicting yourself. If you don't use the roller to gain speed, then why not just raise the HOC 1.5mm, leave the roller off, and speed be damned?

Steve,

Where is the contradiction? I would recommend thinking about what you post.

As to the idea that rolling does not compact. Any object moving across the green will cause some compaction however small but in the case of a green iron the benefits can out way the negatives. As for the research, I do not know much about it but its reliability would depend on who paid for it?

Jon