Green Sizes

[Ryan Coles]

If these have noticeably shrunk over a period of a few years. What is likely to be the cause?

Over cautious or sloppy mowing?

[Tom_Doak]

It's not just caution or being sloppy.  If your club ever went to riding greensmowers, some of the tighter corners were just impossible to make with a triplex, so those areas were eliminated.

Also, bunkers can creep into the green over time, either from edging or from sand buildup that creates contours too big to putt on.

[BHoover]

It's not just caution or being sloppy.  If your club ever went to riding greensmowers, some of the tighter corners were just impossible to make with a triplex, so those areas were eliminated.

Also, bunkers can creep into the green over time, either from edging or from sand buildup that creates contours too big to putt on.

So you're saying that one of the reasons for losing squared-off greens is the mowers? Interesting. It makes perfect sense but I never made the connection.

[Matt Day]

Interesting subject, I just compared our green sizes from 2007 to last month using nearmap and a number of greens have shrunk. Time to revisit this with the course super as we had small greens to start with.

[Kevin Lynch]

At my county-run courses, I assumed it was sloppiness, with decreased staffing as the catalyst.  Also, it probably doesn't help that the course superintendent elevated to that position via parks department seniority, rather than any golf-related expertise.

One course (former Country Club of Buffalo) had several wonderful Travis greens, with nice shoulders and corner pin possibilities. Unfortunately, over decades, these have been reduced to non-descript ovals with ~60-70% of the original area.

The other county course didn't start with Travis greens, but lost 25-30% of putting area in the past 10-15 years.  Some of the former tight greenside bunkers are now 8-10 yards away from the surface.  One 440 yard par-4 now features a 16 yard circle (used to be 23x25).

The new County Executive is an avid golfer, and I'm taking the case directly to him, armed with some Google Earth aerials and old yardage books.

[David_Tepper]

"Also, bunkers can creep into the green over time, either from edging or from sand buildup that creates contours too big to putt on."

Tom D. -

For your sake, I hope Pat Mucci does not read this thread. He firmly believes sand thrown from bunkers can in no way alter green contours. And,if he believes it, it must be true!

DT
 

[Thomas Dai]

Green shrink.

Another reason for not allowing ride-on mowers anywhere near greens/surrounds?

atb

[Adrian_Stiff]

Green shrink.

Another reason for not allowing ride-on mowers anywhere near greens/surrounds?

atb

Thomas - Not using ride-on mowers adds nearly a £100 a year to a members subscription, so that's the call most clubs have to make. In the UK £100+ is often a 10-15% hike.

[Thomas Dai]

Adrian,

Thanks for this information. I was wondering what the cost implications could be.

All,

Out of interest, when did fringes start to appear around greens? Presumably once-upon-a-time, courses went direct from fairway to putting surface?

atb

[Jon Wiggett]

Green shrink.

Another reason for not allowing ride-on mowers anywhere near greens/surrounds?

atb

Thomas - Not using ride-on mowers adds nearly a £100 a year to a members subscription, so that's the call most clubs have to make. In the UK £100+ is often a 10-15% hike.

Hate to disagree but the cost argument is wrong in as much the difference is negligible and if the claim is £100 per member that makes it costing £100K more on a membership of 1000 persons which is clearly wrong.

When you take into account the cost of the machine, life expectancy of machine, maintenance, running costs plus the extra maintainace costs due to stress on the turf then the difference is small or in my case cheaper to hand mow.

Jon

[Adrian_Stiff]

Green shrink.

Another reason for not allowing ride-on mowers anywhere near greens/surrounds?

atb

Thomas - Not using ride-on mowers adds nearly a £100 a year to a members subscription, so that's the call most clubs have to make. In the UK £100+ is often a 10-15% hike.

Hate to disagree but the cost argument is wrong in as much the difference is negligible and if the claim is £100 per member that makes it costing £100K more on a membership of 1000 persons which is clearly wrong.

When you take into account the cost of the machine, life expectancy of machine, maintenance, running costs plus the extra maintainace costs due to stress on the turf then the difference is small or in my case cheaper to hand mow.

Jon

I reckon its +£40,000 per year to hand mow greens. I am talking about a good 18 hole course. It is a 3 man job possibly even a 4 man job to mow in the time 1 can triplex. It is very expensive on weekends of course. Assuming it is 3.5 hours to mow, it means at least 1 more person probably 1.5. plus you have big weekend o/t costs. The maths are £40,000 = cost £48,000 to the member with Vat (tax) 500 members divided by £48,000... (not many clubs have a 1000)...clubs that have 600/700 often count juniors and other no or small payers....I said nearly £100..... I agree with you in your case cheaper to handmow, I doubt you mow daily. The very reason people use triplex mowers on greens is to save money/time. Hand mowing is better but it is at a cost.

[Patrick_Mucci]

If these have noticeably shrunk over a period of a few years. What is likely to be the cause?

Over cautious or sloppy mowing?

Minimum wage employees performing a task without the benefit of understanding the mission.

Triplex riding mowers

A lack of vigilance by the membership and super

The almost imperceptible daily shrinkage

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Also, bunkers can creep into the green over time, either from edging or from sand buildup that creates contours too big to putt on."

David,

I've never seen that happen on any course I've been playing for 20, 30, 40 or 50 years

Can you cite just five courses where you've seen sand splash buildup create contours too big to putt on ?

Tom D. -

For your sake, I hope Pat Mucci does not read this thread.
He firmly believes sand thrown from bunkers can in no way alter green contours.

That's correct

Can you cite just five courses where sand splash has altered the contour of the PUTTING surface ?
To the degree that it created contours too big to putt on ?

C'mon David, now's your chance to shine 

Just five David, that should be easy for you

And,if he believes it, it must be true!

correctomundo ! 
 

[Mark McKeever]

David, you can add Philadelphia Cricket Club (Wissahickon) to the list.  Feel free to come up with the other 4.


Mark 

[Jon Wiggett]

Adrian,

we could possibly ping pong this back and forth to no end. Yes, as you say it is cheaper for me but I do mow 6 days during the main growth and not less than if I were triplexing the greens. I recon that the average an 18 hole course takes about 4.5 man hours to mow with washdown and the average with the triplex about half that.

Machine costs Ca. £40K for a triplex which might last for say 5 years on average as the greens mower costing £8K per year
Hand mower costs £5K which will last about 15 years as greens mower averaging at £333 per year

2 regrinds per season costs £50 per unit so £300 for the triplex and £100 for hand. New bedknife each year is £180 triplex and £60 hand. Triplex uses far more fuel than the hand. Servicing the triplex will be close to £1000 where as less than £100 for the hand and the list goes on.

Then there is the grass collection issue where hand mowing allows the cuttings to be taken away by the operator where most triplex cutting has depos which will need separate collection which is also time consuming and often unsightly. Also the space used by the triplex in what for many greenkeepers are cramped sheds. Then the insurance and legislation compliance issues.

Then there is the risk of leaks which can be disastrous if they occur which is not a problem with a hand mower. Add to that the compaction and turf stress problems on the green especially close to the greens edge and fringe with turning, lifting and setting of units  leading to increased maintenance and I have never been convinced about the finance argument.

On top of that the greenkeeper has a direct contact with the green and can mow to help decrease stress when hand mowing. Then there is the tendency for people on triplexes to think they can mow without stepping down from the machine except to empty baskets by either whipping the flag out whilst mowing.

I would say timesaving is the main reason but I would rather employ an extra person and invest the money there than in machines.

Jon

[Bill_McBride]

Green shrink.

Another reason for not allowing ride-on mowers anywhere near greens/surrounds?

atb

Thomas - Not using ride-on mowers adds nearly a £100 a year to a members subscription, so that's the call most clubs have to make. In the UK £100+ is often a 10-15% hike.

Adrian, how many members?

If 400 that's £40,000 a year to walk mow vs riding mow the greens.   How many more staff would that be?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Green shrink.

Another reason for not allowing ride-on mowers anywhere near greens/surrounds?

atb

Thomas - Not using ride-on mowers adds nearly a £100 a year to a members subscription, so that's the call most clubs have to make. In the UK £100+ is often a 10-15% hike.

Adrian, how many members?

If 400 that's £40,000 a year to walk mow vs riding mow the greens.   How many more staff would that be?

I based it on 1.5 more staff (remember holidays, pension, N/I contribution)  But weekend mowing means 3 or 4 come in to mow rather than 1 person. Member numbers I based on 500, which is about UK average for a decent 18 holer if you dont add in the non payers (life/staff/junior/country)

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian,

we could possibly ping pong this back and forth to no end. Yes, as you say it is cheaper for me but I do mow 6 days during the main growth and not less than if I were triplexing the greens. I recon that the average an 18 hole course takes about 4.5 man hours to mow with washdown and the average with the triplex about half that. Takes us 10 hours plus handmowing for 18 hours, I have cut 18 greens in a day lots of times (not at the course I am at now), it was the equivilant of 23 miles, yes i was knackered

Machine costs Ca. £40K for a triplex which might last for say 5 years on average as the greens mower costing £8K per year
Hand mower costs £5K which will last about 15 years as greens mower averaging at £333 per yearWe have 5 mowers and when we hand mow we use 4, but you definetely need 3, so I cant get your rationale you are twisting figures, we service and grind ourselves, we dont pay 40K for a triplex, in fact I tend to buy them a few years old for 4K

2 regrinds per season costs £50 per unit so £300 for the triplex and £100 for handbut you need more handmowers. New bedknife each year is £180 triplex and £60 hand. Triplex uses far more fuel than the hand. Servicing the triplex will be close to £1000 where as less than £100 for the hand and the list goes on. does use more fuel, we get a few years out of bedknifes though

Then there is the grass collection issue where hand mowing allows the cuttings to be taken away by the operator where most triplex cutting has depos which will need separate collection which is also time consuming and often unsightly. Also the space used by the triplex in what for many greenkeepers are cramped sheds. Then the insurance and legislation compliance issues.we throw the grass cuttings in the bottom of a hedge or rough, but same for both

Then there is the risk of leaks which can be disastrous if they occur which is not a problem with a hand mower.I agree 100% with this but this is not a time or money factor Add to that the compaction and turf stress problems on the green especially close to the greens edge and fringe with turning, lifting and setting of units  leading to increased maintenance and I have never been convinced about the finance argument.

On top of that the greenkeeper has a direct contact with the green and can mow to help decrease stress when hand mowing. Then there is the tendency for people on triplexes to think they can mow without stepping down from the machine except to empty baskets by either whipping the flag out whilst mowing.

I would say timesaving is the main reason but I would rather employ an extra person and invest the money there than in machines.

Jon

I agree with time saving but that is money. It is the weekend where it is difficult to hand mow, you need to do them quickly, golfers = money but they want good conditions and all cut before they play them. A triplex needs 10 minutes to get infront of golfers, so you need 3 or 4 to mow on weekend mornings

[Jon Wiggett]

Adrian,

but the time saving is a case of income not cost though it is valid. Having said that two guys will probably be just as quick as a triplex so it depends on course layout and when first tee time is set. My point was purely about cost incurred and I appreciate that using triplexes on the weekend and busy days makes sense.

Jon

[Tyler Kearns]

Ryan,

Members notice when maintenance staff cut into the fringe - ugly mowing pattern, scalped turf, discoloured grass.  Therefore, maintenance staff will err on the side of caution if they can't make a perfect pass.

If left unchecked, losing for example, a mere 1/2" per year around the perimeter of the green can greatly reduce the overall putting surface.  Using a 6,000 sq. ft. circular green built in 1920 as an example, you can see how quickly it looses surface area (approx. 11 1/2 sq.ft. per year);

1920 = 6,000
1950 = 5,663
1980 = 5,335
2010 = 5,016

If the green in question was originally more square, as many classic designers intended, even greater loss would occur due to the triplex mowing issues mentioned above, resulting in lost corner hole locations.

TK

[Carl Rogers]

What would be a comfortable radius for a tri-plex mower?  Should that be the minimum design radius?
What would be a comfortable side slope for a tri-plex mower?
What would be a comfortable uphill or downhil slope for a tri-plex mower?

The tri-plex is here to stay, I assume.

Wouldn't these questions need a response to create a sustainable green in an affordable golf market?

[Tim Gavrich]

In about 15 years of playing Pawleys Plantation down here in South Carolina, I can say without a doubt that sand throw-up onto greens has caused the increase in slopes on the edges of a number of greens and, in turn, shrinkage of those greens IN ADDITION TO the agility problems with triplex mowers.

Perhaps this is a stupid question, but how feasible would it be to have the person who mows the greens bring a walking mower along with the triplex out to each green? He makes a pass around the edge of the green with the walker, thereby maintaining the edges/corners, then does the meaty interior with the triplex. Is it cost prohibitive to hybridize the process? Do clubs usually have only one or the other type of mower?

[Thomas Dai]

Assuming it is 3.5 hours to mow

Adrian/Jon,

Interesting counter-points and nice insights into aspects of the job.

Adrian,

For my clarification and no slight intended, and I realise your making assumptions/generalisation, but do you mean 1 man on 1 triplex taking 3.5 hrs to mow all 18 greens including driving to/from the sheds and between each green plus doing the putting/chipping greens?

atb

[Adrian_Stiff]

Thomas yes that's about it 3.5 hours to mow 20 greens, 18 plus 2 'others' with 1 man on a triplex.
I would say it takes 10.5 hours to mow those same 20 greens with 1 man and a handmower, which is not really practical as the golfers are out so it is 3 men 3.5 hours to mow those same 20 greens.

Size of greens, proximity of the others all play a part in time.

I agree with JW that for a small 9 hole course, lower budget type, it makes commercial sense to handmow. A decent 18 holer where membership demands ALL mown by 0800 its not practical. We still disagree the cost bit. I am suprised more Supers dont cast their costing for Triplex v Handmow situe.

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks Adrian. Interesting stuff. Historically at my 18-hole home club, 1 man seems to whizz around on a triplex in about 2.5 hrs including whipping the pins out while mowing, and we get some lovely 'slip' marks when it's wet and nice 'oil trails' on occasions too. Perhaps speed/care and attention (are some of) the reasons why our greens don't receive much praise, but that's another story, one that is maybe partly responsible for my preference to see hand-mowing, which would on the face of it seem to be less likely to suffer from poor operator use/technique even though it may apparently take longer.

atb