Green Sizes

[Adrian_Stiff]

Thomas - It all becomes a matter of opinion as to what is the best way to spend the budget. How much is the budget? How much is the membership? What is the volume of play? Do you use two tees to start (at weekends)? are all important questions. How do you mow your fairways? Approaches?

We hand mow for tournaments (pro stuff) perhaps 7-10 days prior and in the winter months (Nov-Mar) (we are triplexing now). I don't think you can really tell much difference in the putting with poa surfaces by how it is mown, narrow stripes look great,  I have seen some horrendous turning with hand mowers where you see skids and bruising of the turf, long sweeps off and back on to the green are preferred but that takes 'more time'.

I personally would spend the budget on other things before hand mowing, we triplex mow the last 100 yards into the green as short as 8mm, that takes time, its a Monday-Wednesday-Friday job, but it is opinion, some like striped fairways other halves.

It really depends on how much golfers are paying per round as to what you can/can't afford. I think Hand mowing is okay at £50 ppr.

[David_Tepper]

Mark McKeever & Tim Gavrich -

Thanks for your input regarding bunker sand buildup on the greens at Philly Cricket and Pawleys Plantation. This subject was discussed at length here 6-12 months ago. At least 2 or 3 superintendents stated this is an ongoing maintenance issue at their courses.

In the time I spend in Dornoch each year, I regularly see the grounds crew there using either brooms or blowers to move thrown bunker sand off the greens and back into the bunkers. Despite their efforts, there is clear bunker sand buildup on the greens of the 10th & 13th holes. Both of the holes are par-3's that do not allow for a run-up shot, so the bunkers on those holes see a lot of action.

DT       

[Tom_Doak]

Can you cite just five courses where you've seen sand splash buildup create contours too big to putt on ?

Patrick:

Maybe we are disagreeing about the definition here.  What I'm saying is that the sand splash has built up a ridge more than six inches high at the edge of what was formerly green, sloping back down to the original grade a few feet into the green, steeply enough that the superintendent stops mowing it because having short grass on that steep a slope plays havoc with incoming shots.

As for examples, just since the first of the year, I've done some work on such problems at Mid Ocean and Royal Melbourne.  We've addressed similar problems in the past at San Francisco Golf Club, The Valley Club of Montecito, and Pacific Dunes, and I've seen it in many other places, especially at Riviera and Pebble Beach where the greens have shrunk significantly from their original size.  That's more than five, and they aren't exactly low-profile, low-budget golf courses where the superintendent is not paying attention!

[Matt Neff]

Perhaps this is a stupid question, but how feasible would it be to have the person who mows the greens bring a walking mower along with the triplex out to each green? He makes a pass around the edge of the green with the walker, thereby maintaining the edges/corners, then does the meaty interior with the triplex. Is it cost prohibitive to hybridize the process? Do clubs usually have only one or the other type of mower?

I've heard of this method being used at some places that tri-plex greens.  However, it would normally take two people as the tri-plex operator can't just "bring a walking mower along" due to the size and weight.  That being said, I suppose it's possible that someone has set up a tri-plex to tow a trailer with a walking unit but I'm not sure the standard hydraulics of the tri-plex are set up to handle that type of load.  Additionally, the walk mower operator would probably have to make at least two clean-up passes due to the size/set- up of the triplex making it difficult, if not impossible, to consistently raise and lower the reels within 18" - 21"  (effective cutting widths of most walkers) of the collar especially in tight spots.  I know that's a little outside the scope of your point but it's a factor that would need to be considered for this type of system.  FWIW, while maybe not to the same extent, shrinkage can happen with walkers too.

Using a seperate operator (which is probably the most realistic option) to mow the clean-ups with a walker would probably add somewhere in the range of 2 to 3 man hours depnding on green size and course layout.  If, hypothetically, someone was to trailer a walker with a tri-plex, I would think it would add at very least 1 hour to the job and that's probably a conservative estimate considereing that the operator would have to disconnect the trailer, tri-plex the green, unload walker, mow clean-up passes, load walker back onto trailer, and re-connect trailer.  

[Mike_Young]

Couple of things:
When calculating fully allocated cost of triplex vs. walking don't foget to calculate the cost of a vehicle for towing the walkers as well as trailers.

We have been triplexing for two years and not doing a clean up cut with the triplex.  We do two cleanup passes with a walker every third day. 

And FYI, Toro says the psi ( pounds per sq inch) weight on a green is much lower with the triplex than the walker and also the most psi on a green is the ball of the human foot.

And the coolest thing have seen in a while was a walker set up to mow in a clockwise direction where the left side was set a "off green" height of cut and the right side was a green height of cut.  Eliminates the line...also works on  fairway to rough transition if not to  much

[Jon Wiggett]

Couple of things:
When calculating fully allocated cost of triplex vs. walking don't foget to calculate the cost of a vehicle for towing the walkers as well as trailers.

We have been triplexing for two years and not doing a clean up cut with the triplex.  We do two cleanup passes with a walker every third day. 

And FYI, Toro says the psi ( pounds per sq inch) weight on a green is much lower with the triplex than the walker and also the most psi on a green is the ball of the human foot.

And the coolest thing have seen in a while was a walker set up to mow in a clockwise direction where the left side was set a "off green" height of cut and the right side was a green height of cut.  Eliminates the line...also works on  fairway to rough transition if not to  much

Mike,

some good point but

the vehicle you use to transport will almost certainly be one that you will be because of other duties so except for the fuel is not an additional cost.

Yes the manufactures like to push the ground weight issue but this is only in a straight line. What they fail to mention is it not an even ground pressure across the full cutting width. The pressure during turning is increased dramatically to the outside wheel edge due to the high centre of gravity. When the tank is more than half full then the sideways movement of the weight on the back wheel is increased by the dynamic movement of the liquid causing hammer points. When the units are lifted it increases the ground pressure and this happens in the same area of the green.

All of the above happens to a much lesser degree or not at all with hand mowers. FWIW, extra ground pressure is not always bad, that depends on the distribution. But then if I was making the most money out of selling triplexes I would push them as being better too.

Jon

[John Jeffreys]

No one has mentioned the different grasses used on greens and collars. Encroachment of warm season grasses into cool season putting surfaces is especially problematic.

[Jon Wiggett]

No one has mentioned the different grasses used on greens and collars. Encroachment of warm season grasses into cool season putting surfaces is especially problematic.

John,

if possible I would prefer the same grasses on all playing areas though I understand this is not always possible due to climate.

Jon

[Mike_Young]

Couple of things:
When calculating fully allocated cost of triplex vs. walking don't foget to calculate the cost of a vehicle for towing the walkers as well as trailers.

We have been triplexing for two years and not doing a clean up cut with the triplex.  We do two cleanup passes with a walker every third day. 

And FYI, Toro says the psi ( pounds per sq inch) weight on a green is much lower with the triplex than the walker and also the most psi on a green is the ball of the human foot.

And the coolest thing have seen in a while was a walker set up to mow in a clockwise direction where the left side was set a "off green" height of cut and the right side was a green height of cut.  Eliminates the line...also works on  fairway to rough transition if not to  much

Mike,

some good point but

the vehicle you use to transport will almost certainly be one that you will be because of other duties so except for the fuel is not an additional cost.

Yes the manufactures like to push the ground weight issue but this is only in a straight line. What they fail to mention is it not an even ground pressure across the full cutting width. The pressure during turning is increased dramatically to the outside wheel edge due to the high centre of gravity. When the tank is more than half full then the sideways movement of the weight on the back wheel is increased by the dynamic movement of the liquid causing hammer points. When the units are lifted it increases the ground pressure and this happens in the same area of the green.

All of the above happens to a much lesser degree or not at all with hand mowers. FWIW, extra ground pressure is not always bad, that depends on the distribution. But then if I was making the most money out of selling triplexes I would push them as being better too.

Jon

Jon,
I am definitely in favor of walking greens when one can and if you are a public course and purchase used mowers then you can definitely walk for less money...
As for the transportation of walking mowers, true, you do use the vehicle for various duties but fully allocated cost need to be applied for a true cost.  these would include space it takes in the maintenance area, fuel, depreciation, maintenance, and others I don't recall.  So IMHO one has to allocate the hours that vehicle is used for the mowing operation. 
I dont think it will be long until greens are mowed with a gps walker and an operator that is watching one or two greens at a time...

[Jon Wiggett]

I agree with the running costs of the transportation when reduced down to an hourly cost but not the cost of purchase as unlike the triplex the transporter is multiuse. Having said that on smaller 9 holers you can walk from green to green.

I can see gps/smart mowers coming in in the next few decades.

Jon

[Ryan Coles]

Ok, so you've identified that greens have shrunk and perhaps lost some of the relationship with green side bunkers. How best and most cost effective to tackle this?

Any experiences of successes and failures in trying to tackle this problem, I'd be interested to read.

[Sean_A]

I think this raises a good question about revetted bunkers some 3-5 feet away from the green surface, but often times well below the green surface as well.  Do folks think sand splash is partially responsible for the bunkers being below the surface of the green? At some point, does the problem solve itself once there is enough depth?  Do revetted bunkers help retain sand because of the steep walls or is just a matter of bunker depth?  From my PoV, it often doesn't matter on links of the bunker is tight to the green or 3-5 feet off of it simply because the grass is usually short enough to act like green and balls will continuing rolling.  The same theory applies to putting.  Often times, links greens are effectively much larger simply because the first cut is so short an firm.   

Ciao 

[Steve Okula]

Adrian,

Machine costs Ca. £40K for a triplex which might last for say 5 years on average as the greens mower costing £8K per year
Hand mower costs £5K which will last about 15 years as greens mower averaging at £333 per year

Jon

That does not correspond to the prices we pay in France, nor the life expectancy. The price of a new triplex is 40,000 euros, and a walkmower is 12,000 euros, both prices including sales tax. We get about ten years life out of either machine.

But with an expansive property, we need vehicles and trailers to haul the walkmowers around, so overall the walkmowers are more expensive to purchase and operate.

We have a "hybrid" operation, from April through October the larger, more open greens a mown with a triplex and the smaller, tighter greens are mown by hand, both daily. In the winter months it is walkmowers only everywhere but only once or twice per week. 

It is not uncommon for a course to triplex greens but use a walkmower for the perimeter pass.

[Jon Wiggett]

Steve,

I would imagine that with an operation and situation such as yours the combi system you employ is the best system. Whether to use hand or triplex is a case by case bases. It surprises me that you are using 10 year old triplexes on your greens. I have never seen or heard any other top end else doing that other than for verticut units or similar.

£9500 for a basic, fixed head hand mower, WOW I guess that must be part of the reason France is the financial power house of the Euro zone

Jon

[Steve Okula]

Yes the manufactures like to push the ground weight issue but this is only in a straight line. What they fail to mention is it not an even ground pressure across the full cutting width. The pressure during turning is increased dramatically to the outside wheel edge due to the high centre of gravity. When the tank is more than half full then the sideways movement of the weight on the back wheel is increased by the dynamic movement of the liquid causing hammer points. When the units are lifted it increases the ground pressure and this happens in the same area of the green.

All of the above happens to a much lesser degree or not at all with hand mowers. FWIW, extra ground pressure is not always bad, that depends on the distribution. But then if I was making the most money out of selling triplexes I would push them as being better too.

Jon

I'm not a physicist, but I'm not sure what extra pressure is exerted by a moderate turn of the triplex. I think more damage is done simply because the machine travels over exactly the same perimeter path day a after day, whereas the passes across the green can be changed in direction. In any case, my problems arise more from turning and maneuvering  the machine off the green than on the perimeter pass.

Maybe you could tell me what the formula is for calculating the "hammmer points" of a typical greens triplex machine. A Toror 3250-D weighs in at 630 kg., maybe 700+ kg with the driver. It has a fuel capacity of 22.7 litres of diesel, which weighs 850 grams per litre. So half a tank would weigh around 10kg., (1.3% of total mass) which I suspect would be insignificant. You'd do better to put your smallest staff member on the triplex, or hire petite girls to drive it. 

[Steve Okula]

Steve,

I would imagine that with an operation and situation such as yours the combi system you employ is the best system. Whether to use hand or triplex is a case by case bases. It surprises me that you are using 10 year old triplexes on your greens. I have never seen or heard any other top end else doing that other than for verticut units or similar.

£9500 for a basic, fixed head hand mower, WOW I guess that must be part of the reason France is the financial power house of the Euro zone

Jon

To be fair, we only use the triplexes on the greens for four or five years, when they are relegated to mow tees and approaches. I should have been more accurate. The pedestrian mowers last a good ten years on the greens, but then they don't run up the same number of hours that the triplexes do. As you know it's the hours, not the years, that count. We expect 3-4,000 hours out of either machine.

The price of 12,000 euros is for a new Toro Flex 21, but comparable Deere and Jacobsen mowers are in the same price range. What do you get for £5,000?

P.S. France has a lame economy for many reasons I could mention but the price of turf equipment is not foremost among them.

[Jon Wiggett]

Steve,

Flex 21 top of the range hand mower taken to make it as expensive as possible for the comparison but the ca. £30K triplex is surely the more the basic so hardly a like for like comparison is it. Suddenly the triplexes don't last 10 years as greens mower just 5.

I see your thought process is as lame as the French economy.

[Steve Okula]

Steve,

Flex 21 top of the range hand mower taken to make it as expensive as possible for the comparison but the ca. £30K triplex is surely the more the basic so hardly a like for like comparison is it. Suddenly the triplexes don't last 10 years as greens mower just 5.

I see your thought process is as lame as the French economy.

I'm not skewing the cost of equipment to support any preconceived notion - the machines cost what they cost. A 12k euroToro Flex 21 is no more top of the line than the 40k euroToro 3250-D triplex. Both are fitted with brushes and groomers and have 11 blade reels. In the interest of accuracy, at present exchange rates, 12k and 40K euros are £9,600 and  £32k respectively.

With turf equipment, as with cars, it's not the chronological age that matters but the usage. A ten year old car with 50,000 miles on it is probably in better shape than a two year old car with 150,000. So it goes with mowers, except their relative age is measured in hours rather than distances. For example, mowers in warm weather climates where they work twelve months a year can expect a shorter chronological life span than those in cool climates that get a few months down in the winter. Our walkmowers do fewer and smaller greens, and don't run up the hours as quickly as the triplexes do. Plus, the triplexes are transporting themselves around the course where the walkmowers get a ride in a trailer between greens.

It is a simple, undeniable fact that the walkmowers cost more to operate, at least in my situation. I'm fortunate to have the resources to utilize the smaller machines as a supplement to the triplexes.

But you haven't answered my question: What greens mower can you buy new for £5,000?

[Jon Wiggett]

Steve,

back when I was last seriously looking at new equipment 2010 the quote for a basic Jac 18" hand mower was £4'750 and for their basic Greens triplex you got a few pennies change out of £40K.

It is good that you have now added the caveat of at least in my situationto the cost of running point. 10 years turn into 4 to 5 and so on. You should be able to get at least 10'000 hours of work out of a hand mower as a greens mower in my experience.

The main reason for triplex ring is not due to running over the same point repeatedly though this does contribute but rather due to the combination of tyres sliding ever so slightly in the curve combined with the pressure point being transferred to the outer edge of the tyres during the turn. You can see this effect reflected in the fact that the tighter the turn the worse the damage but then this is stuff you as a green keeper should really be aware.

As for the fuel. On a triplex mower the fuel tank is usually positioned at the rear of the mower behind the seat above the rear wheel. As such when the machine turns the rear wheel makes the actual arc of the turn. If the tank is half full the fuel flows across to the side of the turn and as the mower stops the turn this creates extra pressure as the fuel which still wants to carry on going in the direction of the turn is stopped by the wall of the tank. This effect is biggest when turning off the green and it is rare to see a green keeper who does not turn too quickly when 'no one is looking'.

Jon

[Glenn Kirby]

Ok, so you've identified that greens have shrunk and perhaps lost some of the relationship with green side bunkers. How best and most cost effective to tackle this?

Any experiences of successes and failures in trying to tackle this problem, I'd be interested to read.

Ryan,

The best method to enlarge greens will be very dependent on timescale and soils.

I've tried:
dropping the hieght quickly and spending a season top dressing, coring and overseeding - quick to get a putting surface but takes time to look part of green.

Spent a season treating the collar and approach like a green - top dressing, coring, etc and slowly lowering height of cut - this takes longer but the collar and approach quality increases dramatically and gives you opportunity to alter greens significantly without looking messy.

Stripping turf and altering rootzone by amelioration with suitable material, core green and push cores into new area, over seeded with suitable seed and treat like a grow -in. - best suited to sand based constructions as it allows you to match surfaces better than using existing grass species.

Second method is my preference, my greens sizes are now limited by irrigation head installation but I've got collars and approaches firm and running similar to greens - whilst it doesn't give me all the pin positions I want it does give me a larger effective putting surface - until I can get irrigation system moved!

Glenn

[Joe Sponcia]

Ryan,

Members notice when maintenance staff cut into the fringe - ugly mowing pattern, scalped turf, discoloured grass.  Therefore, maintenance staff will err on the side of caution if they can't make a perfect pass.

If left unchecked, losing for example, a mere 1/2" per year around the perimeter of the green can greatly reduce the overall putting surface.  Using a 6,000 sq. ft. circular green built in 1920 as an example, you can see how quickly it looses surface area (approx. 11 1/2 sq.ft. per year);

1920 = 6,000
1950 = 5,663
1980 = 5,335
2010 = 5,016

If the green in question was originally more square, as many classic designers intended, even greater loss would occur due to the triplex mowing issues mentioned above, resulting in lost corner hole locations.

TK

If I wasn't already sold, this would have tipped it over.  Good post sir.