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Jon Wiggett

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Alfie Ward

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Re: Interview with Mike Keiser
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2014, 03:04:20 PM »
Excellent interview. Thanks for posting Jon.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Interview with Mike Keiser
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2014, 05:14:36 PM »
Lesson: Gotta avoid having a "crazy greens" period if you want to work for Mike! ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interview with Mike Keiser
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2014, 10:28:12 AM »
I'm looking forward to the Wisconsin project, simply due to it's easier access than other destinations.  Keiser has been wonderful for creating excellent destination golf.

However, there seems to be some cognitive dissonance when a guy bemoans the decay of "family golf" at the same time charging $100 for a par 3 course, and $200+ for destination locations.  While that appeals to hard-core golfers like those on this site, I'm not sure it addresses his supposed concerns from the article.  He praises the "blue collar" nature of the sport in Scotland & Ireland, but is Bandon even remotely close to a "blue collar" destination?  I suspect the families who just spent 5 days at Bandon weren't going back to the factory when they went home.

None of that is Keiser's fault or his obligation to fix.  He built a resort that catered to a certain market and is wildly successful.  But simply making those courses "walking-encouraged" is not going to address the structural decline in family golf.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interview with Mike Keiser
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2014, 04:03:02 PM »
I share Kevin's sentiments on this matter.  While it is outrageously presumptuous for me or anyone to suggest how the extremely wealthy utilize their wealth by suggesting a fellow like Keiser, or Kohler, Trump, and other known entrepreneurs of golf development could better use their wealth and efforts to truly re-invigorate the game with the wider demographic of potential golf enthusiasts;  it would be wonderful if one of these elite developers would take up an approach similar to the Andrew Carnegie model of charitable giving to widen the access to the great works of GCA that they are involved in developing.  Not that the charity of giving to spread of popular access to golf is as momentus as the knowledge and freedom that mass access to libraries has had in the historical sense.  But, designing-in affordability and access to these projects that would be accessible to the average person, certainly seems to me to be the key to walking the walk of truly 'growing the game' or 're-invigorating the mass appeal'.

Reading the article, I have no doubt Mr. Keiser totally understands and has in mind these notions of how the game can flourish on a wider base of the demographic spectrum.  But, then when asked about future projects, he alludes to a site in Cabo, and Ireland- somewhat remote. 

In my humble opinion, the only way to achieve a wider demographic to have access and affordability is to prospect and mine the existing aging golf courses in and around where the people live.  There are so many failing or barely getting by mom and pop sort of courses, that are boring and without any architectural merit.  The dilemma for the developer is acquiring any virgin or undeveloped land in or near the population centers.  It is understandable that even the most wealthy of these developers isn't about to spend that sort of cash and then just give it and any chance of self sustaining financial operations away when the upfront costs take the punter market right out of it from the get-go. 

So, it seems to me that the better financial model is acquiring the failed, boring, out of date courses that are wasted or sunk costs to the original owners and that are located near the populations, and bringing in a Doak/Renaissance style operation to jazz up and remodel what is there, balancing economy with excitement of GCA features archies like Doak are known for, where a modest green fee that promotes access to the masses can still be done.   

The other model that ruminates in my mind, is to use the prestige that a fellow like Mr. Keiser has earned in creating world class golf, in conjunction/collaboration with municipalities or entities-units of public ownership of public land, that may be given on a lease of land basis to develop golf courses to boost local economic development of the area, and a dual purpose of providing "the people" with pleasurable and affordable recreational opportunity that golf offers, if families and community can access it.  But, that takes something of the Andrew Carnegie approach. 

BTW, doesn't Trump somehow identify his family heritage to Carnegie?

But, Mr. Keiser seems to me to be the one among some of these recognized leading developer figures in the golf world, best situated by reputation for excellence and depth of understanding the spirit of the game to take the lead on bringing more golf to more folks, via a popular model for affordable development.

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Kevin_D

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Re: Interview with Mike Keiser
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2014, 04:13:58 PM »
Isn't Keiser already working on an affordable golf project with Bandon Muni? (which seems like it's been more hassle than the other 5 combined)

You can't really fault the guy for charging full freight for some of the best golf courses built in the last 60 years.

RJ_Daley

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Re: Interview with Mike Keiser
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2014, 04:23:03 PM »
No, I certainly don't fault him or any businessman for building in a sensible profit, of course.  I read the book on Keiser and the development of BD and of course it is his innate business sense and learned experience that kicks off all that has been possible in his life of golf development. 

It is something of the idealist golfer/punter's dream that a person of great means will take up the notion of actually doing something of the charitable model that other ultra wealthy have evolved into as they grow older, to pass along some of the good fortune back to society in a sector of culture that reflects their life passions. 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Guy Nicholson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interview with Mike Keiser
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2014, 04:49:28 PM »
So, it seems to me that the better financial model is acquiring the failed, boring, out of date courses that are wasted or sunk costs to the original owners and that are located near the populations, and bringing in a Doak/Renaissance style operation to jazz up and remodel what is there, balancing economy with excitement of GCA features archies like Doak are known for, where a modest green fee that promotes access to the masses can still be done. 

+1!

Kevin_D

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interview with Mike Keiser
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2014, 04:54:53 PM »
I have no idea what the financials of Bandon are like, but if he does make a profit there, you could argue that those profits are responsible for the creation of Cabot Links/Cliffs, Sand Valley, etc.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Interview with Mike Keiser
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2014, 05:20:56 PM »
So, it seems to me that the better financial model is acquiring the failed, boring, out of date courses that are wasted or sunk costs to the original owners and that are located near the populations, and bringing in a Doak/Renaissance style operation to jazz up and remodel what is there, balancing economy with excitement of GCA features archies like Doak are known for, where a modest green fee that promotes access to the masses can still be done. 


RJ:

Actually, Mike has referred me to a project that might be just as you describe.  But it is still far too early in the planning process to talk about it now, not least because I had to sign a non-disclosure agreement with the current owners.  There are lots of politics involved, and they will take a while to sort themselves out, but it could be a hell of a project if it happens.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Interview with Mike Keiser
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2014, 05:22:05 PM »
I have no idea what the financials of Bandon are like, but if he does make a profit there, you could argue that those profits are responsible for the creation of Cabot Links/Cliffs, Sand Valley, etc.

I think that's how Mike thinks of it, he has been reinvesting the dividends from Bandon in other places.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interview with Mike Keiser
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2014, 06:20:52 PM »
Dick Daley:

I've long thought about your suggestion of remodeling "Mom & Pops". Northeast Ohio, for example, is loaded with such courses and they make the region one of the best places I have seen for "affordable" golf.

But, I do wonder about the economics of such projects. How much money would it make sense to spend on such projects? What would be the impact on green fees and/or rounds played?
Tim Weiman

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interview with Mike Keiser
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2014, 06:23:34 PM »
I just skimmed through this thread am a little confused.  Isn’t accessibility to golf for families and the masses what municipal courses are all about?  Isn’t that where most of the guys on this site learned to play?  Some inexpensive place where kids were welcome and could be dropped off on a summer day and spend the day playing golf.  That still exists in rural areas throughout the golf playing world.   

Most people I know in the golf business practice some form altruism in granting access to kids and youth programs.  We have nearly 200 kids in our development programs and grant practice access to 3 high school teams, hold HS tournaments, etc.  Learning this game is hard enough on just your basic, simple, goat-ranch course.  I don’t think the kids care that the architecture is world class.

Apologies if this has already been said. 

Garland Bayley

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Re: Interview with Mike Keiser
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2014, 06:23:51 PM »
Dick Daley:

I've long thought about your suggestion of remodeling "Mom & Pops". Northeast Ohio, for example, is loaded with such courses and they make the region one of the best places I have seen for "affordable" golf.

But, I do wonder about the economics of such projects. How much money would it make sense to spend on such projects? What would be the impact on green fees and/or rounds played?

Are the economics of the case study called Common Ground applicable?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interview with Mike Keiser
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2014, 07:29:00 PM »
GJ:

I am a huge fan of Common Ground and, yes, it would be interesting to know the economics and scope of work.Ditto for Atlantic City Country Club. Though a private course, I suspect the project scope and economics would also be interesting.
Tim Weiman

Robert Thompson

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Re: Interview with Mike Keiser
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2014, 07:38:51 PM »
I always cringe when I hear how expensive golf is. Surely Bandon is pricey because it is one of the elite resorts in the world. It is how I'd expect it to be. However, there is a ton of inexpensive golf throughout North America, places like the course I grew up playing. Are they great? No. But I didn't know any different at the time and it appealed to me as I learned the game and was lured into its clutches. They are places to play -- nothing more and they don't need to be anything more.

Keiser has built relatively inexpensive facilities given their quality -- look at the cost of Cabot for instance -- and that certainly can't be said of Trump. But they aren't cheap. There's no doubt about it.

Does Keiser owe something more to golf? No. But it wouldn't surprise me if he did something anyway before he's through.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interview with Mike Keiser
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2014, 08:16:53 PM »
Dick Daley:

I've long thought about your suggestion of remodeling "Mom & Pops". Northeast Ohio, for example, is loaded with such courses and they make the region one of the best places I have seen for "affordable" golf.

But, I do wonder about the economics of such projects. How much money would it make sense to spend on such projects? What would be the impact on green fees and/or rounds played?

Northeast Ohio is fortunate to already have Dick's model in place, long before the costs of acquisition (and architects) skyrocketed.  I can't think of a better collection of municipal courses than Cleveland.  Manikiki, Sleepy Hollow, Big Met & Little Met provide the architectural interest of Ross / Thompson, with a price tag of $30-$40. 

In a way, isn't the blue-collar culture of golf in Ireland & Scotland similar in a way, in that the interesting courses pre-existed the rising costs?  This allowed the sport to remain family-friendly from an economic standpoint.  Or is it more than economics, and mostly a cultural attraction to the sport which perpetuates the game?

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interview with Mike Keiser
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2014, 08:50:27 PM »
I just skimmed through this thread am a little confused.  Isn’t accessibility to golf for families and the masses what municipal courses are all about?  Isn’t that where most of the guys on this site learned to play?  Some inexpensive place where kids were welcome and could be dropped off on a summer day and spend the day playing golf.  That still exists in rural areas throughout the golf playing world.   

Most people I know in the golf business practice some form altruism in granting access to kids and youth programs.  We have nearly 200 kids in our development programs and grant practice access to 3 high school teams, hold HS tournaments, etc.  Learning this game is hard enough on just your basic, simple, goat-ranch course.  I don’t think the kids care that the architecture is world class.

Apologies if this has already been said. 


I think you're right in everything you say.  Attracting kids to the game probably has more to do with inexpensive, family-friendly access than great architecture.  Based on that, is the solution really come from the world-class developers and architects?  If Keiser does help at that base level, it will be more from altruism than the high-end business models of Bandon/Cabot.

Dick's model may come in handy in attracting late bloomers to the game.  If you want to catch the eye of aging soccer / football players, I think you may need something with a little more architectural interest, rather than simple access.  Finding the balance between architectural interest and affordability becomes a tougher challenge.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Interview with Mike Keiser
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2014, 09:34:56 PM »
Finding the balance between architectural interest and affordability becomes a tougher challenge.

Architectural interest really doesn't cost anything to add to a course -- except for paying the architect's fees, which by rule of thumb, might add a few dollars to the green fee.  It would be $10 for the rare million-dollar design fee, but of course, that's only if construction costs translated directly to retail prices, which they don't.

The "problem" is all with the market.  The market says the best courses in metropolitan areas cost more, because there are more people with the disposable income to play them.  The market says that courses in the top 100 can charge more, wherever they are, because people go out of their way to see them.  Some are not happy with that, and seem to want Mr. Keiser to subsidize their exposure to great golf.


Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interview with Mike Keiser
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2014, 10:06:52 PM »
Dick Daley:

I've long thought about your suggestion of remodeling "Mom & Pops". Northeast Ohio, for example, is loaded with such courses and they make the region one of the best places I have seen for "affordable" golf.

But, I do wonder about the economics of such projects. How much money would it make sense to spend on such projects? What would be the impact on green fees and/or rounds played?

Northeast Ohio is fortunate to already have Dick's model in place, long before the costs of acquisition (and architects) skyrocketed.  I can't think of a better collection of municipal courses than Cleveland.  Manikiki, Sleepy Hollow, Big Met & Little Met provide the architectural interest of Ross / Thompson, with a price tag of $30-$40. 

In a way, isn't the blue-collar culture of golf in Ireland & Scotland similar in a way, in that the interesting courses pre-existed the rising costs?  This allowed the sport to remain family-friendly from an economic standpoint.  Or is it more than economics, and mostly a cultural attraction to the sport which perpetuates the game?

Kevin,

I have long sung the praises of Cleveland area golf. Some might think it crazy, but if you had to identify the really special places in golf, the Cleveland area would have to be on the list for exactly the reasons you suggest. No, Cleveland isn't Philadelphia or, say, Melbourne, but the quantity of decent affordable golf is pretty tough to beat.

I just wonder if a few of the Mom & Pops might stand a re-fresh - not Sleepy Hollow or Manikiki, but maybe some of courses down in the Hinckley area.

Thanks for mentioning Little Met. Along with Mastick Woods, it is exactly what golf in America needs, IMO.
Tim Weiman

William_G

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Re: Interview with Mike Keiser
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2014, 10:15:16 PM »
however you slice it, we should all thank Mike Keiser
It's all about the golf!

Dan Smoot

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interview with Mike Keiser
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2014, 07:07:02 AM »
Dick Daley:

I've long thought about your suggestion of remodeling "Mom & Pops". Northeast Ohio, for example, is loaded with such courses and they make the region one of the best places I have seen for "affordable" golf.

But, I do wonder about the economics of such projects. How much money would it make sense to spend on such projects? What would be the impact on green fees and/or rounds played?

I don't know how you can turn the decline in golf with the efforts of a single individual,  Keiser, etc.  Golf needs to attract those that are young to keep them for a lifetime. It has to be done at a local level with vision, with commitment and the ability to keep it inexpensive and available for the young. I don't know if that exists in the psyche of the average person in the US.  When I was an early teen developing my love and appreciation for the game, I saw a considerable number of my peers on the course during those times set aside for Juniors. Today, it is a rare sight for me to see a group of young people on the course at the local muni.

My parents were not of sufficient means to support my golf at today's relative prices. However, the local community made golf very affordable at a rate of $60 for a summer.  The local golf community restricted junior golf to the "off" peak times like weekday mornings or twilight weekend times.  It seemed to work really well.  It certainly isn't any easier for parents to afford the game than it was then.

I hear how golf is considered a family activity in Ireland.  Is that still true?  How do they do it?


Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interview with Mike Keiser
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2014, 01:10:58 PM »
So, it seems to me that the better financial model is acquiring the failed, boring, out of date courses that are wasted or sunk costs to the original owners and that are located near the populations, and bringing in a Doak/Renaissance style operation to jazz up and remodel what is there, balancing economy with excitement of GCA features archies like Doak are known for, where a modest green fee that promotes access to the masses can still be done. 


RJ:

Actually, Mike has referred me to a project that might be just as you describe.  But it is still far too early in the planning process to talk about it now, not least because I had to sign a non-disclosure agreement with the current owners.  There are lots of politics involved, and they will take a while to sort themselves out, but it could be a hell of a project if it happens.

OMG! Tom Doak is going to do Goat Hill!
 :o
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Interview with Mike Keiser
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2014, 01:20:44 PM »

OMG! Tom Doak is going to do Goat Hill!
 :o

The only Goat Hill I'm looking at is the one John Ashworth is trying to save in California [see David Tepper's post].  That one is DEFINITELY "for the good of the game," but it falls well short of being a top-100 contender.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interview with Mike Keiser
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2014, 01:44:00 PM »
Nice shout out for Mike DeVries.  Maybe a future passenger on this bad boy?:

Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

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