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Sven Nilsen

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El Sobrante GC - A lost William Watson
« on: March 17, 2014, 01:14:53 PM »
Perhaps the timing could have been better, as it appears that William Watson's El Sobrante GC was another victim of the changing times of the late 1920's.  I'm vaguely familiar with the area around the San Pablo Reservoir, and can only imagine the vistas that might have been available.

Berkeley Daily Gazette, June 20, 1929 -

« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 02:08:14 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Bill_McBride

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Re: El Sobrante GC - A lost Willie Watson
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2014, 01:31:25 PM »
So it was never built or is NLE.

I always wondered where El Sobrante is.  When I met my wife long ago, she had a running mate called "El Sobrante Annie."   I was always afraid to ask her. 

Sven Nilsen

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Re: El Sobrante GC - A lost Willie Watson
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2014, 01:35:22 PM »
Bill:

As far as I can tell, never built.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

David_Tepper

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Re: El Sobrante GC - A lost Willie Watson
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2014, 01:43:15 PM »
So the course described in this article  is not the Mira Vista Golf & CC, designed by W. Watson & R. Hunter, which was recently renovated by Forrest Richardson?

http://www.miravista.org/

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: El Sobrante GC - A lost Willie Watson
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2014, 01:49:41 PM »
Par 38 on the front! 

Watson was active in that local area.  Berkeley (Mira Vista), Orinda, Claremont.

I've driven through El Sobrante quite a few times as a detour to get to the Richmond-San Rafael bridge.  Beautiful area just north of the reservoir, but not much going on.

"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Sven Nilsen

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Re: El Sobrante GC - A lost Willie Watson
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2014, 01:54:03 PM »
So the course described in this article  is not the Mira Vista Golf & CC, designed by W. Watson & R. Hunter, which was recently renovated by Forrest Richardson?

http://www.miravista.org/

David:

I think Mira Vista dates from much earlier in the decade.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: El Sobrante GC - A lost Willie Watson
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2014, 02:02:07 PM »
For the west coasters, there's a follow up article on East Bay CC (designed by Watson) from a few years earlier (Berkeley Daily Gazette - April 9, 1926).  The article has a bit of information on Sam Whiting, noting his work at:

East Bay GC - construction and laying of the grass greens
San Jose links - new course, supervised construction
Stockton links - new course, supervised construction
Sacramento links - handled alteration work
Harding course - put in grass greens

The article does not give Whiting design credit for Stockton, as has been suggested elsewhere on this site.

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Joel_Stewart

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Re: El Sobrante GC - A lost Willie Watson
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2014, 02:34:09 PM »
From Mira Vista web site,

"The origins of Mira Vista reflect the same spirit that imbues the club today: a group of friends and golf lovers wanting a great place to play golf and relax. There were thirteen of them at the first official meeting of “The Berkeley Country Club” as it was called back then. They met at the University of California, Berkeley in Wheeler Hall back sometime in early 1920 to plan out their vision.
 
The group found an incredible piece of property in the East Bay Hills and two incredible architects: Robert Hunter, an original owner, and Willie Watson. Hunter went on to co-design the world-class Cypress Point Golf Club with Allistar Mackenzie; Watson went on to design the Olympic Club Course in San Francisco."


It seems odd to me that both Watson and Hunter would work on both Mira Vista and El Sobrante?   It's confusing because Mira Vista was called the Berkeley CC before changing their name.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: El Sobrante GC - A lost Willie Watson
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2014, 03:09:49 PM »
Joel:

I haven't seen anything that suggests Hunter was involved with the plans for El Sobrante, unless I missed something in this thread.

Here are a few articles on Mira Vista aka Berkeley CC.

Berkeley Daily Gazette - April 24, 1920:




Berkeley Daily Gazette - April 27, 1920:



Berkeley Daily Gazette - June 16, 1920:

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

David_Tepper

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Re: El Sobrante GC - A lost Willie Watson
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2014, 03:30:43 PM »
"We are developing here a golf course of champion calibre. I believe it it destined to be one of the most popular in the country."

Mr. W. Watson was certainly not shy when touting his handiwork. ;)

Kyle Casella

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Re: El Sobrante GC - A lost Willie Watson
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2014, 02:55:55 PM »
A par 6 in 1930? That is something else!

Bill_McBride

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Re: El Sobrante GC - A lost Willie Watson
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2014, 06:42:25 PM »
A par 6 in 1930? That is something else!

I'm not sure when nearby Lake Chabot in Oakland was built, but it finishes with a downhill par 6.  It goes on forever. 

Tim Leahy

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Re: El Sobrante GC - A lost Willie Watson
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2014, 07:58:25 PM »
Would like to know what became of the Stockton and Sacto links mentioned. The only courses I know in this area that  could be that old are Stockton CC, Del Paso CC or maybe Haggin Oaks and two of those are attributed to Mackenzie.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: El Sobrante GC - A lost Willie Watson
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2014, 01:26:56 AM »
When did "William" Watson become more commonly known as "Willie"?  He is generally referred to as William in press accounts of the day.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Kyle Casella

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Re: El Sobrante GC - A lost Willie Watson
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2014, 09:20:02 AM »
A par 6 in 1930? That is something else!

I'm not sure when nearby Lake Chabot in Oakland was built, but it finishes with a downhill par 6.  It goes on forever. 

That's right! Willie Lock ~1925 I think. I played there once- that hole is a lot of fun (the course overall has lots of quirk). If you catch one just right off the tee and get a good bounce, it can roll for at least 100 yards. I think it's like 650+ from the back tee.

DMoriarty

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Re: El Sobrante GC - A lost Willie Watson
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2014, 01:42:39 PM »
When did "William" Watson become more commonly known as "Willie"?  He is generally referred to as William in press accounts of the day.

I think he always went by William.   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Forrest Richardson

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Re: El Sobrante GC - A lost William Watson New
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2014, 08:27:00 PM »
Very interesting articles. Thanks to Tim Youngberg, Mira Vista's superintendent, for altering me to this thread.

Certainly Watson was put out in the limelight by Hunter and the founders. We have characterized this as "ghost writing" by Watson on behalf of the up-and-coming Hunter. By this time Hunter had a decent friendship with Ross and had visited many of the great Eastern courses. He had not yet forged his relationship with MacKenzie, which is why we purposefully avoided the temptation to inflict MacKenzie bunkers at Mira Vista. We found only two photos of original bunkers at Mira Vista, and these photos were not good at all. What we did glean was that the bunkers were mostly simple and this proved true when we got into excavating the old locations and layers of sand.

At the time (c. 1920) Hunter was staying low and not wanting much attention, especially by being labeled the "Golf Architect of the new Berkeley CC". Although, as we know now, Hunter — upon completion of the course — took great ownership and paid Watson only a few brief compliments. It was, without a doubt, Mira Vista (Berkeley CC) that got Hunter to get hooked on golf architecture. His refrain from writing about it in THE LINKS is most likely because he fell out of favor with the club, and also that (our belief) was that he realized the many mistakes he made in the routing once he met MacKenzie and began learning more and more. Having said that, Mira Vista's routing is excellent for such a rugged site. Mark Fine supposed that Hunter simply felt the site may have been avoided altogether once he listened to MacKenzie speak of ideal sites and their importance.

Watson's comparison to Braid Hills is certainly interesting. Mira Vista is quite hilly as anyone visiting knows. The elevation change is about 200 feet across the site and there is no hole (none) that can be considered in any way flat, or even flat-ish. The routing is primarily through the famous Hayward Fault (really) and then relies on ridges and slopes until it returns to the Hayward Fault, and then back out on a spectacular ridge to finish 15, 16, 17 and then 18, which ascends to the top of the primary ridge.

Interesting in Watson's quotes are mention of the views of the "Golden Gate". He refers to the strait of water between San Francisco and Marin…as the Golden Gate Bridge would not be built for several years. I learned this the hard way when, speaking in front of some members one day, said how great it would be to restore the view to the Golden Gate Bridge that was originally here when Hunter and Watson originally laid out the course…no one caught my error except an old timer who approached me later and explained that the bridge was not there in 1920!   :-[

Photos can be accessed here:   http://www.golfgroupltd.com/mira_vista2.html


« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 08:45:09 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
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