[Sven Nilsen]

Never heard anyone say "that architect did some wonderful design work up there."

The ball may spend a lot of time in the air, but where it ends up depends a lot on what happens when it hits the ground.

Time for someone to drag out John Kirk's old thread on the most enjoyable part of any golf shot.

[Joe Jemsek]

I worked for Mr. Lee and don't specificly recall this quote being a favorite, but it did mak it into Whitten's Book "Gentleman Joe Lee". Based on his design concepts he liked to reward player who could work the ball in different directions. His (and Dick Wilson's) green designs focused on isolating "corners" or "elbows" of the greens where pins could be placed for tournaments. Their concept was a course should be design for everyone and at the same time host tournments with specific pin and tee selection. I remember in 2001 there was something like 20%(10/50) of the courses played on the PGA tour were Dick Wilson/Joe Lee Courses for that very reason.(see list below)

La Costa(WGC Match Play)
Doral (Doral-Ryder Open)
Bay Hill (Mastercard)
Callaway Gardens x 2 (Southern Open)
Diseny x 2(Oldsmobile Scramble)
Warwick Hills (Buick Open)
Cog Hill ( Western Open)
Royal Montreal (Candian Open)

Other famous Joe Lee Quotes

Deep grass is "Herina Grass"
"An architect can't put a foot on th golfer's neck and keep it there all day"
"An excess premium shouldn't be placed on any one shot"
"I am generally not in favor of overseeding in winter. The color green dosen't mean a putt is going to be smooth or fast."

Sounds like a guy building in the dreaded "Dark Ages"

[jeffwarne]

Very good stuff Joe

[Carl Johnson]

What percentage of the game is played in the air vs on the ground? Take a par 5, guessing my ball ia in the air ~ 90% of the time. Do we really know the intent of Mr. Lee's quote.

Bryan, are we taking putts into account here?  Or, shots with a putter, but from off the green?  90%?

Lets say its a 550 yard hole. I putt for 30 feet or 10 yards. That still give me 45 yards of roll strictly across the ground (so not including bounces), which typically doesn't happen where I play.  Even if it was on the ground for 130 yards - that means its in the air for 75% of the time. I call that a majority. 

Even if we call it an air game, doesn't mean I can't bounce it into a green or play the ground game.  Still in the air the vast majoritoy of the time.

Hate to say it, but here's my take.  Ground game vs. air game is not an issue.  Like, is golf 90% physical and 10% mental, or vice versa? (Apples and oranges.)  There is ground, and there is air (but eventually ground).  Sometimes the golfer will decide his/her best shot is X yds. in the air, and Y yds. on the ground.  X and Y vary, depending on the circumstances and the skills of the player.  Has anyone actually put a stopwatch to air vs. ground?  Never seen it, but that would be interesting - but no more than interesting.

[Carl Rogers]

How many great ground game properties are out there in the North American continent?  Very very very few.  so, the air game is inevitable.

[Joe Hancock]

How many great ground game properties are out there in the North American continent?  Very very very few.  so, the air game is inevitable.

I'm interested. What is the definition of a property that makes it great for the ground game?

Joe

[Carl Rogers]

How many great ground game properties are out there in the North American continent?  Very very very few.  so, the air game is inevitable.

I'm interested. What is the definition of a property that makes it great for the ground game?
Joe

Thin sandy soils that drain thoroughly and almost instanteously.  So that eliminates 99.9999% of the North American continent.
The last Firm and Fast Course I played was Dormie last fall.  Before that was the 4 courses at Bandon.  I stand corrected by those of you more learned by modestly proposing that the remodeled Mid Pines only approches the Firm and Fast.  (the 3rd hole there is soggy)

[jeffwarne]

How many great ground game properties are out there in the North American continent?  Very very very few.  so, the air game is inevitable.

I would have to disagree here.
While of course most US properties aren't sand based, there's no rule that says every green and approach has to slope TOWARDS the player.
a ball hitting a downhill slope WILL bounce  and roll regardless of the base underneath.
Of course this requires some cleverness of greensite location in to ensure proper drainage, but if an architect is able to find or build  18 high points for greensites, it would seem, if the demand was there, that he could find a few lower points that still had good natural drainage.


The air game is a of course a big part of golf, but over time elite players have pressured architecture into leaving little of the shot's outcome to "chance" with the systematic elimination of "blind" features and greens that runs away which require a different kind've skill than sheer brute skill of hoisting the ball upwards

[Mike_Young]

How many great ground game properties are out there in the North American continent?  Very very very few.  so, the air game is inevitable.

About 16,000 if you cut the power off to their pump stations...

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