White v. Red

[Mac Plumart]

Ben...

I agree with you that Red 4 is a great hole.  One of the best I've ever played.

Most people detailed why they liked White 4 better, so we can review what they said.  But I also think a lot of it comes down to fun.  If they've had more fun playing one hole over the other, I'd guess that is why they voted the way they did.

In fact, I did that on 6.  If you want to cut, and dissect, and analyze the holes for the core principles of golf hole design...Red should win hands down.  That is the kind of thing I'm talking about when I constantly refer to holes as being "solid award winning holes."  BUT, I picked 6 White because I have so much FUN playing the hole.  It makes me smile, laugh, and hit enjoyable shots.  That is why I play golf...to have fun.

So, maybe that is a reason why some people like 4 on the White over 4 on Red.  But, I'm with you, 4 Red is a world class golf hole and one of my favorites.

[JC Jones]

Sinner  

Sure - but why are you almost always the one to cast the first stone?!   

Because I live in a glass house.

[Peter Pallotta]

Yes, befitting your Iconoclast ways and Dadaist nature! JC Jones, ladies and germs: the only golfing Dadaist I've ever met!

Now, on to hole #10. (How are you enjoying my analysis by the way? I noted you weren't one of the hundreds, nay thousands, of posters singing my praises in a flurry of PMs).

Peter

[Cliff Walston]

Ben, I am with you on R4 being world class and selected it as the winner on my card.  I agree it is the best hole on the upper 8, in my opinion.  I think many people have a bias in favor of par 5s because they often present the best opportunity at birdie/par (depending on skill level).  That always leaves a warm and fuzzy feeling.  Also, W4 is probably the most photographed hole at Dismal, and everyone remembers the windmill, which I personally think is cool.  Those features I think elevate it on some people's card.   

Cliff 

[Peter Pallotta]

While we're waiting for the 10th, I thought someone who knew how could crop the photo Eric posted above and title it:

"Simon and the MacKenzie Bag, with Knitted Headcovers - An Approach to the 9th at Dismal Red"  

[Eric Smith]

10 Red
537 Par 5

10 is one of the holes I am least familiar with at Dismal so I'm hoping others will provide color. It is a beautiful hole on some great ground with nice movement in the middle. Sorry I don't have any pictures to show you from the fairway. Probably because I've been all over the place on this one. I'm sure another season of play will yield further discovery in how best to play the hole.

Another Mackenzie bag for you, PP.


The new bridge eliminates the walk through the canyon


CJ and JK playing during the grow in (Fall 2011)


View from behind the green of this very natural green site


---

10 White
150 Yards Par 3

We can debate whether or not the 10th hole at Dismal River is iconic, but one thing I think we can all agree on is that no one forgets playing it.


Photo: Mark Saltzman

Just look at it. The The flowing lines. The grace. Bunker in the middle. Striking.



What can I say? Is this hole proof that Jack Nicklaus has a sense of humor? I think so! I'm a huge fan of the 10th, having had more fun here than I deserve. Do I want it on every course I play? Of course not. It just happens to work well on this one.

White wins. White +1

[Keith OHalloran]

When I played the Red course, the bridge had just been finished.  What was the walk to the fairway like? Did people walk directly through? Or around on the path?

[Chris Johnston]

When I played the Red course, the bridge had just been finished.  What was the walk to the fairway like? Did people walk directly through? Or around on the path?

Keith - Before the bridge, the player had a very long walk from 10 tee to 10 fairway around the cavern...down to the beginning of 18 fairway, then back up and around.  That, and the infant turf were why it was a "preview" year.  I would suppose these impacted the initial course ratings, and I would have preferred ratings not begin until the course was officially open.  Live and learn.

Ben - I agree on Red 4, one of the best holes around.  Also agree with many that White 4 is a hoot of a hole.

The shot into 9 green is a half 8, 9, or wedge, and is a rare ground game opportunity as the run up may be a better shot than flying it in most days. 

CJ

[Scott Szabo]

Enjoying the tour, thanks Eric.

[Keith OHalloran]

Thanks Chris,
I guess it was impractical/impossible to walk right through the cavern?
Was the bridge always in the plan?

[Mac Plumart]

Oh, the 10th hole on the White course!  ICONIC!!!

Par 3 with the bunker in the middle of the Salvador Dali-like punch bowl green.  WOW!  Mind-bender.


Meanwhile, the 10th on the Red course is a brilliant par 5.  Tee shot requires thought and strategy...where to aim...why...what's your tactical approach for your next shot?  2nd shot is the same.  And once you are around the green, the fun has just begun.  Excellent hole.  And, let me just say this, I'm glad that bridge is there...and I LOVE that bridge.


I'm giving the hole to White.  So much fun.  So many laughs.  Nothing but good times had on that hole by me and my playing partners.  Change the pin, change the hole...hole in one pin position, the blind pin position...putting up and over the humps...avoiding the bunker.  Lots of fun.

White +2 on the MRP Scorecard.

[Cliff Walston]

I guess this stretch is where I turn into a Red Course homer.

The 10th on the White is good from the 150ish yard range.  The front portion of the green is quite shallow, and a short iron is fine.  I quite like the hole from that yardage.  From 200+ back tee, it is silly.  The native around the green is fairly thick, leading to a number of lost balls with long irons in play.  An acceptable hole on this course, and certainly "iconic" by the definition we have been using.    But not a great hole to me.

On the other hand, R10 is the best par 5 on the course.  The ideal line is take on the mound of native guarding the left hand side of the fairway and get a big kick forward in a generous portion of the fairway hidden from view.  This give you the opportunity to go for the green in two.  But the next challenge is taking on the green-side bunkers up the left hand side from a less than ideal angle.  Likewise, laying up for a short iron third needs to be done with care as well.  There is a large depression from 175-125ish that will leave a blind third if you are too conservative in your lay up.  The best angle is from the right hand side of the fairway from about 100, and of course there is a fairway bunker to catch sloppy shots there too.

Great hole.  Red 2 Up.
    

[Chris Johnston]

Thanks Chris,
I guess it was impractical/impossible to walk right through the cavern?
Was the bridge always in the plan?

Keith.

The bridge was always in the plan but we fussed a bit over where it would be. and we also wanted the style to fit the rest of the property.  In the end, we all agreed we didn't want to overwhelm the architecture, so we located it in a cool place yet out of the way.

It was done by Moosman Bridges, up north in Valentine, Nebraska.  They did very good work.

CJ

[Peter Pallotta]

Another tough choice for the outsider, and so he must again rely on that most unquantifiable of measuring sticks, i.e. the subjectivity of personal taste and preference. Good on White for starting the back 9 with such a striking and interesting Par 3 -- but I guess I like my architects with slightly less humour (the idea I think is to give the putter a roller-coaster ride, not an actual roller coaster); and as well, somewhat like the 12th at Augusta, the problem/test isn't going left or right but long or short, since the greens are wide but narrow; and downhill and exposed like that I don't trust my 8 iron re distance control. The Red's Par 5 meanwhile 'sets up' beautifully, the vista from the tee and its relationship to the design seems spot on, and (from other sources I looked at) the design/topography and green site keeps things interesting even for me (who usually just sees an meh/blah 2nd shot lay up on most Par 5s). So, I give this one to Red.

As we come fully into the back nine, and after 10 holes, PJP's scorecard (again, the only one that matters) now has it All Square!

[Bruce Wellmon]

10 Red tee shot, CJ, fall 2012.

The bridge.

Fairway, fall 2012.

And greenside.

As much as I like 10 Red, a strong par 5, I like 10 White, which is really 2, if not 3, holes "in one." 
Push, All Square.

[John Kavanaugh]

Did we really get past 8W without mentioning Jonathan Cummings making an albatross hole in one?  On a similar note the front positions on 10W make the hole the longest par 2 I have ever played.

[Mark Fedeli]

Thanks for this, Eric. All us newbies at the 5th Major this year are thankful we now don't have to go in completely blind.

Question about 10W, what's the play when the pin is directly behind the bunker? Do you work the ball around the bunker using the contours of the green or do you try to carry it completely?

I'm going to sleep well tonight imagining rolling it around the left side and down that enormous slope.

[John Kavanaugh]

Mark,

When the pin is on the back you fly your ball over the bunker. The back portion is also a large bowl but for reasons I can not figure out difficult to hit. In the back position 10W becomes a very short par 4. I would guess that over 50% of the people who play the hole end up short on the front portion which makes for a very interesting but difficult 2 putt.

[John Cowden]

With an extra club, the back pin is definitely birdie country. 

Both these 10s are immensely special and satisfying, each in its own unique way.  Call it even on the back side.   I love 'em both.

[Eric Smith]

White v Red will continue with a private tasting later this summer at Dismal River. I invite all of you who are coming out for the 5th Major to stop by cabin # 4 at 11:00 PM on Thursday, June 26 for the conclusion of this exercise. No electronic devices will be allowed, with the exception of my iPad, as I'm hoping to have Master Sommelier Peter J Pallotta facetiming us with his selections.

Again, thank you for indulging me!!

[Mac Plumart]

I'll wrap up my match play and thoughts on the courses and be done.

As it stands I have White +2.

Hole 11 Red wins (one of my favorite par 3's)
Hole 12 Red wins
Hole 13 White wins (there are secrets in regards to playing this hole, fun when you unlock it)
Hole 14 Red wins (this begins one of the greatest stretches in all of golf, IMO).
Hole 15 Red wins
Hole 16 Red wins
Hole 17 Red wins
Hole 18 Red wins

For the Match, Red (Doak) wins +4.

Overall, I think White (Nicklaus) is a fun and unique course in an amazing location.  

While I think Red, is one of the very best golf courses ever built.  Not only are the holes amazing, the routing excellent, and the setting iconic...but the construction and maintenance plans/process are something extra special.


GALATIANS 6: 7-9

[Jim Colton]

Mac,

 Thanks for your back nine views. You are right, that closing stretch at Red is all-world.

 Jim

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, Eric.

Best

Peter

[Chris Johnston]

Eric,

You are one of the best and its nice to see people actually excited about something!  Fun thread.  Fun guy.  Thanks.

CJ

[Lou_Duran]

Lou,
You are describing 9 correct?
Ben, are you talking about 9 or 10?
You guys may be talking about different holes.

I thought I was.  Is there not a canyon or depression to cross on the tee shot on #9 and a considerable walk-around?  It was the 9th, our starting hole in Match 3 of the 2013 5th Major where I tugged my punch 9 slightly into the natives.

Apparently I am mistaken on the bridge.  I thought that there was some talk about two or more  bridges including one from #9 tee to the fairway.  Mistaken again?

Lou,

Theres a bridge now just off 10 tee.

I'm curious as to why you included the part about your ball kicking off the left part of the green into the native. As I recall, the left side of the green slopes back into the green surface just beyond the large left side bunker(s).  And there's also quite a bit of short grass back and left of the green in the form of 11 tee.  Is is quirky for a low, high ball speed shot to carry through a green when it lands on it?

No ill motive.  I was describing a shot I hit which though I tugged slightly, the results greatly surprised me.  It was a conservative play with the expectation that the ball would kick right if anything (as you note, the slope is back toward the green, which is my recollection as well).  It did not go through the green, it just went left, and it did appear quirky given the wind and the shot (God, what I would give for a high ball speed!).  At worst I had expected a moderately difficult chip.  Perhaps it is not quirk as the course was new.