White v. Red

[Mac Plumart]

May have used the word incorrectly, Jim.  Didn't read the exact definition of it prior to typing.

4 iconic because it is identifiable with the windmill.

8 iconic (memorable) because of how drivable it is and with the distinct bunker and alternate route to the hole.  

If I sit down with people who've played the course only once and ask them what they thought of 8, they may not immediately recall what hole 8 was.  But if I say, "you know, the drivable par 4 with that mound in the way and massive bunker out left."  And they will always reply, "Oh yeah!  I know that hole."  

It is distinctive and memorable.


Iconic hole on Red.  Hmmm...  For me, the 9th hole is the most memorable for me because of the angled drive over the gully.  But I'm not so sure everyone else would pick the same one.  So, perhaps, no hole is "iconic" on the Red yet.  Maybe 18, like you say...with the view coming home.  Or 17, with the blind tee shot up and over the skull.

[Tom_Doak]

If I sit down with people who've played the course only once and ask them what they thought of 8, they may not immediately recall what hole 8 was.  But if I say, "you know, the drivable par 4 with that mound in the way and massive bunker out left."  And they will always reply, "Oh yeah!  I know that hole."  

It is distinctive and memorable.

They will always remember the hole once you remind them of its features?  That is not my definition of iconic, at all.

I think people have trouble remembering the hole because you can't see the green from the tee, and you don't quite know where everything is, even after multiple rounds.  [The Road hole would have the same problem, except that you are teeing off over the corner of the hotel grounds, and everyone can remember that.]

The only people who consider it "iconic" are people who have driven the green.  It is an icon to their prowess.

[Jim Colton]

Thanks Mac. I haven't played the 8th hole or seen many pictures, so was wondering what aspects made it memorable. You did a good job describing it.

The more I think about it, I agree with Eric that the 18th on Red will probably earn it.

[Eric Smith]

I found this one of 8 White in an older thread:


Photo: Mark Saltzman

[Eric Smith]

9 White
590 Yards Par 5

Another terrific par 5 adding to the fun factor of the White. After a semi blind tee shot, the hole dog legs right to a canted fairway, with native looming down both sides. A pair of deep, hairy bunkers in and alongside the fairway set the table for an emergency strategy session, with blindness again taking a seat at the head of the table. For the second shot, an aggressive play toward the high side bunker will leave a straightforward approach splitting the two greenside bunkers. A play down the center or left hand side of the fairway will leave, at best, a more difficult angle of approach over the bunker. The green offers a little bit of everything, with a spine running down the middle sectioning it into two bowls, with a backstop allowing for more of the type shots one doesn't typically have the opportunity to play back home.



---

9 Red
368 Yards Par 4

Everyone hold hands - we're crossing the road. But first we have to hit it across the road. I am hoping for a photo opportunity this summer of Keith O'Halloran hitting his tee shot while the Bud Light truck drives by. Now that would be iconic!


Photo: Cliff Walston

And so we hit it across the road on this cape hole, toward the mountain, avoiding the canyon on the right. Wind will dictate how much to bite off, but a good line is that crease in the mountain. From the fairway, the hole leaves you with a cool skyline approach. Pictures simply can't convey the awesomeness of that backdrop..

Neither can video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YMfT-fUd-s

The 9th was one of my favorites before construction and remains so today.

Tie

All square thru 9

[John Kirk]

#9 Red is great, an unusual design well suited for the prevailing winds.

I think "iconic" means mostly "photogenic", and usually applies to golf holes of exceptional beauty.  For the Red course, the ones I consider most "iconic" would be #5 and #18.  The holes that go towards the big mountains (#8, #9 and #13) are very attractive, too.

I am enjoying the tour. 

[Peter Pallotta]

White continues to surprise and impress, and perhaps impresses more because of the surprise. (Agree with my assessments so far or not - but are there actually, as GW suggests, some 140 modern courses better than DRW? Wow. If you guys are indeed playing these 140 better courses, you're even more blessed than i'd imagined.) At the 9th, again as you know just from pictures and descriptions, my mixed feelings about almost all par 5s are strongly mitigated by two factors/features I really like - the canted fairways and the fact that it is long enough to be reachable in two by only the longest hitters, and so there are no 'mixed messages' around the green as you see on many Par 5s that try to be provide more balance/choice. (My favourite par 5 I ever played, by far, the 8th at Crystal Downs, didn't provide this balance/choice either...and it is the only par 5 I've ever loved.) Red, with all its holes, is always good, the holes always draping just so 'rightly' and the plays/options/trouble integrated so well. Perhaps, in an opposite way, I've not been surprised enough and thus am not giving Red enough credit. Be that as it may, I give this hole to DRW.

So, after 9 holes, the PJP scorecard has DRW - 1 up.

Peter

[Don_Mahaffey]

I think JN could have done a little better routing this section of the white.
While I don't mind the 2nd part of 9W, I am not a fan of the tee shot as what Eric describes as semi blind is really only semi if you lay back off the tee. If you hit driver 250+ or so, it is completely blind. It is another hole where feast or famine awaits the drive. two guys hit driver, both look good, one ball perfect, one ball lost, is not a rare occurrence.
I am not a fan of the way JN pinched in the landing area, and not a fan of the way balls that appear to be hit perfect run thru the canted fwy into the native on the left.

While I've been on the green in two, I've learned that the best play is too lay back and keep your ball in sight and just tack your way to a short iron approach. That may be smart, but it isn't my preferred way of playing a par 5 that is often down wind and gives an average length hitter a chance to get home in two.

[Lou_Duran]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YMfT-fUd-s

I was under the impression that the Red was a walking course and GCAers were sporting types.  All that talk about the great routing; bad enough to see in this clip a young guy and two carts, but what's with driving them within a few yards from the green on a course yet to open! 

#9 was my first hole in the 18 hole match.  Passable drive, lonnnnnnnng walk around the canyon, decent second shot that kicked left off the left side of the green complex never to be found in the natives.  We do love our quirk here, and who says golf is supposed to be fair.  Nice hole, but not one of my favorites. 

[Bruce Wellmon]

9 Red may be drivable for some, but not me. The temptation to bite off as much as you can is certainly there.
The tee shot, fall 2012.

Quite the backdrop.

From the roadside edge of the fairway.

A very firm and fast fairway to the green begging for the ground game.
Red squares the match.

[Mac Plumart]

White 9 is a fun par 5 that requires multiple plays (or listening and playing with someone that knows the course well) to fully comprehend.  And Don is right, the ideal way to play it is to keep the ball in sight and tack your way down the fairway.  If you are going to challenge the hole, you need to be in the correct position off the tee...which I believe is up the right side.  Green is cool.

HOWEVER, Red 9 is one of my favorite holes in the world.  First off, standing on the tee box with those visuals is intense.  Secondly, I love angled hazards.  On this one, you can challenge the hole for birdie (heck, eagle) if you take it way up right (especially if the wind is at your back) and with that firm and fast fairway turf that ball can roll on down there a good long way.  OR you can take it further up left and have a longer approach and play the safer way home.  I LOVE how receptive the approach is to the ground game.

Red wins the hole.

White falls to +1 on the match.

[Ben Sims]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YMfT-fUd-s

I was under the impression that the Red was a walking course and GCAers were sporting types.  All that talk about the great routing; bad enough to see in this clip a young guy and two carts, but what's with driving them within a few yards from the green on a course yet to open! 

#9 was my first hole in the 18 hole match.  Passable drive, lonnnnnnnng walk around the canyon, decent second shot that kicked left off the left side of the green complex never to be found in the natives.  We do love our quirk here, and who says golf is supposed to be fair.  Nice hole, but not one of my favorites. 

Lou,

Theres a bridge now just off 10 tee.

I'm curious as to why you included the part about your ball kicking off the left part of the green into the native. As I recall, the left side of the green slopes back into the green surface just beyond the large left side bunker(s).  And there's also quite a bit of short grass back and left of the green in the form of 11 tee.  Is is quirky for a low, high ball speed shot to carry through a green when it lands on it?

[John Kirk]

Hi Lou,

I played #9 Red once, with a 5-8 mph right to left crosswind.  With about 150 yards in, I hit an easy 9-iron, which I almost lost, in the native just left of the greenside bunker.  I made bogey after a good recovery shot.

Given a second try., with any sort of crosswind, I'd play the approach conservatively, especially from over 100 yards away.  If I have sand wedge left, go ahead and hit full spinning sand wedge.  Otherwise, I'd be playing defensively, chipping something to keep it under the wind.  Given that it's a short hole, I thought it was OK that the lost ball territory was so close to the green.

Also, Lou, I thought there was a more direct walking path to the fairway.  If not, there should be no problem creating one.

[Brandon Urban]

9 Red is an amazing, all-world golf hole. The drive over the road is a hoot and the approach shot to that green that sits on what seems like the edge of the world is full of options. Try to fly one in high and soft and hope it holds, play a little runner low, or putt one from 150 yards. So much fun. One of my favorite holes anywhere.

[Keith OHalloran]

Lou,
You are describing 9 correct?
Ben, are you talking about 9 or 10?
You guys may be talking about different holes.

[Ben Sims]

Lou,
You are describing 9 correct?
Ben, are you talking about 9 or 10?
You guys may be talking about different holes.

Oopsy. Keith is correct. My bad.

I'm just so giddy to get to the next hole. Might be our craziest round yet!

[John Kirk]

Bruce,

Maybe it takes a total GCA architecture dork to appreciate how flat and featureless this approach is.  Minus the impressive backdrop and "infinity" green, this would fit in at your local municipal course.  No, it's too level for that.  You can see how the ground slopes away just a little on each side of the green.

With firm turf and a crosswind, approach shots will be so hard to control.  Maybe after studying and appreciating wild undulations and framed green sites for years, this hole looks very unusual and impressive to me.  Thanks for a great picture.  Somebody is going to win this hole this year by putting from 80 yards.  It breaks about 6 feet right to left.

[John Cowden]

Terrific thread.  Thank you all. 

[Michael George]

My short thoughts:

1 - Red - Red wins because of the fairway landing area for drive on White #1, which needs to be wider to the right to avoid lost balls (especially on the opening hole).  You would still have blind shot from right fairway and flirting with left bunkers can get the player much closer to green.  Thus, no need for tight driving area to the right.  
2 - White - both very good holes.  White has 2 blind shots and I understand the criticism, but I just loved playing the hole.  It was a lot of fun.   I found White #2 to be more fun every time that I played it.  One of my favorites on the White.
3 - Red - Red #3 is a special par 3.  White is solid.  First hole where my decision was easy.
4 - Red - both are great holes .  Red is just world class.  Tough because White is the defining hole of that golf course.  
5 - White - how is your quirk meter?  Mine is high so I love White #5.  CJ - if you are making revisions, I hope you would consider a collection area to the left of the green instead of the bunkers and high grass.   It would provide a bail out area, which I think every great golf hole needs.   Still, I looked forward to playing White #5 during each round - unique in the game of golf.
6 - Red - I liked both golf holes.  6 wins because I think it is again world class.  White #6 approach is one fun golf shot, but needs wider/larger fairway for higher handicappers.
7 - Red - both good holes, neither is my favorite on the course.  Nod to Red
8 - White - a lot of fun to play for every golfer, regardless of ability.  Approach from left fairway is a very cool shot.
9 - Red - I would have picked White if the fairway was wider in the driving area (never got used to that drive).  However, I LOVE the rest of the hole, especially the choices on the 2nd shot and great green complex.  Red is a very good risk/reward par 4.  Slight nod to Red.

So I currently have Red +3.  

I did not get as good of a look at the Red back 9 so I am bowing out of the discussion for the rest of the thread.  However, from what I saw, Red 14 would Baylor-Creighton White 14.  My favorite holes on White back 9 were 13, 16 and 17.

[Cliff Walston]

I like W9, but I love R9.  W9 has a great green complex with side and back boards galore, but I agree with the others that the tee shot is a little off. 

I think the cape tee shot on R9 is one of the best I have seen in that it tempts the golfer to bite off more than he can chew in part by hiding how huge the fairway is on the conservative line.  I also love how the simple green bleeds into the 10th tee and how it looks so easy from the fairway but misplaced approach shots tend to fall away finding very challenging spots to get up and down from.  From a conservative hybrid/fairway metal leaving a partially blind approach to a Tiger-like attempt to drive the green with a strong helping wind, this hole can play very different depending on the wind/tactics employed.

Red goes 1 up on my card. 

[Ben Sims]

It's interesting to see the lack of support--comparatively--for Red #4. I think it's the best hole on the top 8 of the golf course. That green site is in the top 3-4 green sites on the property.

[Eric Smith]

Here is an excellent photo that Simon Holt sent me of the approach at 9.

[JC Jones]

Mac:

True enough, but this same quote is dredged up whenever an architect builds a hole that is just too severe -- he defends it as "controversial", hoping that the criticism will go away.  In fact, often the hole is not really controversial, it's just too damned hard for everybody except the pedal-to-the-metal 2-handicap types. But I promised myself I wouldn't comment on your other thread.

They will always remember the hole once you remind them of its features?  That is not my definition of iconic, at all.

I think people have trouble remembering the hole because you can't see the green from the tee, and you don't quite know where everything is, even after multiple rounds.  [The Road hole would have the same problem, except that you are teeing off over the corner of the hotel grounds, and everyone can remember that.]

The only people who consider it "iconic" are people who have driven the green.  It is an icon to their prowess.

Sinner  

[John Kavanaugh]

In extreme winds the bunker of the left side of 9R provides needed relief.

[Peter Pallotta]

Sinner  

Sure - but why are you almost always the one to cast the first stone?!