White v. Red

[Mac Plumart]

Yes. I have seen the hole driven a number of times, having done so myself with the wind at my back.

Show off!!   

[Eric Smith]

Mac,

C'mon, man. I didn't mention it was a 2 wood.

[Peter Pallotta]

Ah man, Eric, please don't tell me you were using a Phrankenwood! I mean, I think the world of Phil M, but there is not nor has there ever been nor will there ever be a Callaway club anywhere in my bag; call it precious of me or a petulant matter of personal pique, but ever since the ERC II and its non-conforming ways, I could never bring myself to buy anything from that company. Also, like Mac says: "Show off!"

Peter

[Ben Sims]

Ben,
Can you expound a bit on your opinion of the routing? I always struggle trying to evaluate a routing, and would like to hear your reasons for calling it as good as any Renaissance has done.

Keith,

I was fortunate to see the golf course before every bit of earth moving was complete. In pictures, I recognize everything instantly in pictures of the completed course. That's how true to the land it stayed. Even larger movements like the 13th fairway, 2 green and 7 green. The tees were all there. The greens were all there, save just a couple. The golf course routes in such as a way as to maximize interaction with long views, without having to climb a dune to do it. Every green to tee transition is short. There's tremendous variety in length and shot requirements in a close-knit routing that required minimal soil disturbance and-or construction. The holes run together in places to make maintenance easier. You can run machinery around Dismal Red easier than White, which is a product of a contiguous, manageable routing. The golf course is relatively short and yet tests lots of longer clubs. I could go on but I think you get my drift.

Routing is the soul. It affects everything. What most people miss is that world class golf courses don't just happen at the price point that Dismal Red happened. There's a million things that go into getting a golf course in the ground. Dismal Red was routed in such a way that all those million things became easier, cheaper, and more manageable right from the start. It's not that the Ren team didn't move dirt just to not move dirt. They didn't move dirt because they didn't have to. The routing did everything it needed to do for golf without moving much dirt. That impacts soil disturbance, which impacts soil quality, irrigation requirements, etc etc.

So, in my opinion, routing isn't just about minimizing transitions, or capturing views or creating variety. It's also about being supremely cognizant of what's already there, and how you can use it not only to make great golf, but also great golf that's a bit easier to maintain.

[Eric Smith]

Ah man, Eric, please don't tell me you were using a Phrankenwood! I mean, I think the world of Phil M, but there is not nor has there ever been nor will there ever be a Callaway club anywhere in my bag; call it precious of me or a petulant matter of personal pique, but ever since the ERC II and its non-conforming ways, I could never bring myself to buy anything from that company. Also, like Mac says: "Show off!"

Peter

PJP,

Mine is the original before the original. The GBBII 3+ (13 deg.). 2003 model. Best club I've ever owned. The only "wood" in my bag. And I'm freaking out right now because CJ wrote in the latest club newsletter that this season ALL TITANIUM CLUBS ARE BANNED at Dismal River due to fear of sparks igniting prairie fires. http://espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/10633957/titanium-golf-clubs-ignite-fires-study-finds

What am I going to do without my 2 wood???

[Eric Smith]

...of course, he was joking. Still an interesting article though.

[John Kirk]

Thanks, Eric and Mac.

Eric, I still have a Great Big Bertha II 7 wood in my bag.  My friend Dusty Schmidt (a very good golfer) also carries a GBB II 3 wood.  See you in a few weeks.

With regards to White #6, the fact you've driven the green is good to know.  From the picture, the green appears concave, and able to "catch" long shots, but you never know until you ask somebody.

[Ben Sims]

Eric and Mac,

We've had hundreds of interactions over the years and I can quickly count you as two of the good guys. Which is why I'd appreciate if we dispense with the name calling. I try to be honest and upfront when discussing golf courses. I'm sorry if this is immature and mean-spirited to you. Frankly, I've been called far worse. One of my heroes, Gen Robin Olds, wouldn't have sugar-coated it either and as it is Mustache March, I'll follow his lead.

If you guys wish to operate in a frictionless environment (a term I stole from someone else discussing this thread with me) that's fine. I have no qualms with a group of Dismal River members wishing to ply winter away with beautiful pictures of a beautiful place. But please don't frame this activity as frank discussion about architecture. It insults the quality of the work done at Dismal Red. It also doesn't help matters that any naysayers are quickly smote as not appreciating the fine details of Dismal White because they haven't played it enough. Which means that the only valid opinions on this thread have been those that are members of the club, or are in agreement with you. This is unhealthy for a website with our pedigree.

I'll demure from further discussion because it's better that way. Please enjoy your winter diversion/getting pumped about summer thread.  

Eric asked me to post my card. Through 6, DR Red 5Up.

[Peter Pallotta]

Eric - ah, you've restored my faith in you, which is my faith in humanity!! (But remind me not to play you in a match, even with all the strokes I'd asked for; someone who only carries one wood, and that from 2003, is way too good a golfer for me!)

Ben - good post #130; another time on another thread it would be good to explore this some more. Your post reminded me of my questions when I first got to gca.com, and of how America's guest Tom Huckster was continually going on about his inability and lack of interest in judging the architecture, and about how all he could justifiably do was comment on the course -- his point being, I think, that he didn't know (and couldn't know, and didn't really care) about how well an architect 'utilized the site's existing features' or how brilliantly on a tough site he 'routed a course' etc etc; all he knew and could comment on was how the existing course 'played for him on the day he played it.' Now, I took a different approach then and I guess I still do -- in essence, I think there is a magic and an art to what an architect does and how I experience the course, and questions like routings do impact my experience. Also, I've often mentioned how the flow/routing are very important to me; how I'd happily accept a so-called 'transition hole' if it meant that the routing was compact and the flow lovely; I don't need "18 great holes".  Now, you've had a special experience there at DR, in that you saw the Red being contructed and understand in a fundamental way how a million choices have come together to create this all important flow and ideal routing and how it will impact maintenance etc -- and so that has to (and it should) affect your view of the finished product. But, and here's the question for another time: Should it affect my view of that same product? You suggest that Mac and Eric might not be engaging in a frank discussion about the "architecture". But might it be that they are instead simply choosing to have a frank discussion about the "courses"? And if so, is there anything wrong with that, or invalid about it? If so, it would seem to suggest that only those present during construction of a course could meaningfully comment, and I don't think that's what you mean to suggest.

[Ben Sims]

Peter,

Let's table that discussion. I'd like to talk about that stuff, but this isn't the place.

[Eric Smith]

Ben,

Please point to where I called you anything other than 'dude'. Please allow me to point out it is you who has freely admitted on this forum that self awareness was not your strong suit.

My post last night was reaction to this comment:

I don't think I'm too far gone when I say that this feels a lot like a boxer throwing rounds to keep the TV viewers around.

Please explain to me how I have misunderstood you here? You once posted that you had felt for a long time that my goal was to sway public opinion regarding the Nicklaus course. You offended me then and you offend me now.

As for your other ramblings above, I have no further comment.

[Mac Plumart]

Ben...great post about the routing and building of Red.  When people begin to realize all that, the true brilliance of the course shines through even more.

On your other post...I agree.  We want honest and up-front discussion.  Which is why you insinuating we are liars is WAY over the line, which you did when you said our commentary was akin to a boxer throwing rounds to keep the match interesting to the end. 

NOW, if you disagree with which holes I like...I couldn't care less.  There is plenty of disagreement on which holes are better...that is what makes for fun discussion.  You have Dismal Red 5 up...good!  No issues there at all, I certainly would never insinuate you were lying about that being your opinion on the holes.  But to say other people's true and honest opinions are like a boxer throwing rounds is insulting.  Eric isn't putting up with that...and neither am I.  No need for name calling...you insult me, I will tell you how I feel about straight-away. 

We've had these type of inter-actions before...and both of us being military people, we both know this stuff happens.  In my opinion, you were out of line...you were called on it...you can review what you said and agree (or disagree) with my opinion of it.  Then you can keep on keeping on...or change your tune.  That is up to you...but I will not be called a liar and stand for it.  HOWEVER, neither will I dwell on it and let it bother me moving forward.  So, again...look at what you said...and how you said it.  I believe you were out of line.  I've moved on...and awaiting hole 7.

And, again, your post #130 was EXCELLENT and demonstrates why you are a very valued member of this site.

[Greg Tallman]

A boxer throwing rounds. You have a lot of nerve, dude. Say what you will. Post your card. I am posting my own goddamn opinion, Ben.

Eric, You must realize this is GCA and anything less than a 10 & 8 result in favor of the chosen one will be met with pitchforks.

Though I have not played either I cannot see how anyone would possibly prefer red #5 over white #5 unless. Tom needs to get him a few pair of those Wrangler jeans that Dale Jr. and Favre are shilling for... the extra room in the posterior seems a necessity.

[Don_Mahaffey]

I'm a live and let live guy and have no issues with who likes what hole or course.
I have fun playing the White.
I believe there are some very good holes on that course.
I think the Red is way better and so it is hard for me to really dig into a match.

But, when we talk about 6 white, in all my rounds there that hole is where I've spent the most time walking around in the brush trying to find balls hit into the native.
It is a longish iron, hybrid or 3 wood to the flat, and a short club to the green....pretty much every time.
I've seen many players go for the green, hit what looked to be great shots, and never find their ball.
The punch bowl green is interesting in that most of the time you have no idea where your ball has ended up until you get to the green.

Red 6 is a completely different animal, maybe not as much whimsy, but still a decision every time off the tee. If I'm scoring a boxing match, I'd have it 10-7 on this hole with white being saved by the bell.

But, to each his own. And to be clear, when I visit DR, I'm playing both courses, maybe the red more then white, but still playing both.

[Don_Mahaffey]

A boxer throwing rounds. You have a lot of nerve, dude. Say what you will. Post your card. I am posting my own goddamn opinion, Ben.

Eric, You must realize this is GCA and anything less than a 10 & 8 result in favor of the chosen one will be met with pitchforks.

Though I have not played either I cannot see how anyone would possibly prefer red #5 over white #5 unless. Tom needs to get him a few pair of those Wrangler jeans that Dale Jr. and Favre are shilling for... the extra room in the posterior seems a necessity.

I've played both holes over a dozen times and I prefer the Red...what does that make me?

[Josh Tarble]

The first observation I have, is that with the land given, it seems nearly impossible for a bad course to be built in the sand hills.  All of it truly seems, just mow it and play.  That's not to take away what either course is.  In fact I think that's what makes Dismal so interesting.  

From pictures and descriptions, I don't know how any club anywhere could have two such extremely different courses.  It's quite a testament to both designers (and I say both, because clearly the White course is very different from the other offerings in the sand hills) that they could work with similar land and build something so different...and I think that's great!


This is an excellent thread...Eric, thank you for starting and everyone else, thank you for participating.  I'm enjoying following along.

[Keith OHalloran]

Ben,
Thanks for the response. I think I understand where you are coming from, but I have a few more questions.
1. Do you think that understanding a routing depends upon being involved from the construction phase like you were at Red?
2. Do you think understanding a routing depends upon your knowledge of the maintenance  procedures and how the routing plays into them?
I ask 1 and 2 because I will never have full knowledge of either, and wonder if understanding how to evaluate a routing is just not going to be in my future.

Finally, I always find it easier to conceptualize an idea when I can see a tangible example. To that end, you said that the Red was "as good as any" in the Renaissance quiver. Are there any examples of Renaissance routing that you think the Red is better than, and can you explain why? I think that would help me understand your post a bit better.

[Greg Tallman]

A boxer throwing rounds. You have a lot of nerve, dude. Say what you will. Post your card. I am posting my own goddamn opinion, Ben.

Eric, You must realize this is GCA and anything less than a 10 & 8 result in favor of the chosen one will be met with pitchforks.

Though I have not played either I cannot see how anyone would possibly prefer red #5 over white #5 unless. Tom needs to get him a few pair of those Wrangler jeans that Dale Jr. and Favre are shilling for... the extra room in the posterior seems a necessity.

I've played both holes over a dozen times and I prefer the Red...what does that make me?

Dirt??

[Peter Pallotta]

If I told you how many posters have sent me PMs in the last few days you wouldn't believe me, but let's just say they number literally in the hundreds, maybe even in the thousands! Now, modesty keeps me from quoting them directly, as they are nearly unanimous in their praise and embarrasingly lavish in their compliments regarding my gca tastes and insights; but if I were to summarize, the message has been loud and clear: YOURS is the only scorecard that matters, PJP, and the only one we're interested in.

So, for all who have been so kind to write, my gift back to you -- a recap of my card: after six holes, PJP scores this DR Red, 1 up. 

PJP

[Mac Plumart]

YOURS is the only scorecard that matters, PJP, and the only one we're interested in.


 

Love it!

[Ben Sims]

Ben,
Thanks for the response. I think I understand where you are coming from, but I have a few more questions.
1. Do you think that understanding a routing depends upon being involved from the construction phase like you were at Red?
2. Do you think understanding a routing depends upon your knowledge of the maintenance  procedures and how the routing plays into them?
I ask 1 and 2 because I will never have full knowledge of either, and wonder if understanding how to evaluate a routing is just not going to be in my future.

Finally, I always find it easier to conceptualize an idea when I can see a tangible example. To that end, you said that the Red was "as good as any" in the Renaissance quiver. Are there any examples of Renaissance routing that you think the Red is better than, and can you explain why? I think that would help me understand your post a bit better.

Keith,

1) No I don't think so. I think you got to look at the obvious stuff, like how easy the course walks or how close greens are to the next hole's tee. And let's be clear, I was only there for 8 days, so I'm not expert. Other things like ascending large elevation changes without too much climbing, or including quintessential views without walking up the side of a dune help. Other things to look for? How do the fairway and green surround edges fit with the ground outside of it. Are there large lines of demarcation? Does it look like it was sitting there that way? These things are all viewable after the course is built.

2) Maybe. Before I got into all this I wouldn't have any idea that Red is easier to maintain. But think of it this way. With features like free flowing tees, large green surrounds, holes that lack disjointedness and follow natural land movement; it would naturally follow that it's easier to move around the golf course. I also would've had no idea that reducing soil disturbance maintains the macroporosity and natural chemical balances of soil, which in the case of Dismal River, just happens to be damn near USGA spec sand. Soil is a pesky thing. It responds to every single thing around it: air, water, traffic, content, etc. Being careful with that peskiness is just smart, IMHO.

I think Pac Dunes is a real gem (like really really good). I've never played any of Tom's OCONUS courses, so I can't comment there. I'm on record as putting Ballyneal in the same category as NGLA or Pine Valley for me, so I won't compare it to that. So let's go back to Pac Dunes. I think Red is routed better than Pac Dunes. Here's two very basic (no need to go into maintainability and "backdrops") reasons why. 1) Most obviously, there are no green to tee confusing crossover walks. This doesn't ruin my day at Pac, but it's noticeable. 2) Pac has no less than 2-3 holes that are better than anything at Red. Some of those holes required concessions in my opinion and led to what some call "connector" holes.  For this reason the plain-crossing par 5's at Pac could be accused of not being as exhilarating at the par 5's at Red. Though 8 and 10 at Red are also used to cover large swaths of ground to get from one end of the course to another, they are better connector holes in my mind.

Hope that helped.

[Keith OHalloran]

Ben,
I am not sure whether that helped or not! I am going to have to try and digest it. For now, I am going to continue to judge routing solely on green to tee walks!

[DMoriarty]

If you guys wish to operate in a frictionless environment (a term I stole from someone else discussing this thread with me) that's fine. I have no qualms with a group of Dismal River members wishing to ply winter away with beautiful pictures of a beautiful place. But please don't frame this activity as frank discussion about architecture. It insults the quality of the work done at Dismal Red. It also doesn't help matters that any naysayers are quickly smote as not appreciating the fine details of Dismal White because they haven't played it enough. Which means that the only valid opinions on this thread have been those that are members of the club, or are in agreement with you. This is unhealthy for a website with our pedigree.

If you guys wish to operate in a frictionless environment . . . please don't frame this activity as frank discussion about architecture . . . naysayers are quickly smote . . . . unhealthy for a website with our pedigree.

That Ben's points are valid is confirmed by the fact that he is being falsely accused of calling people "liars" for expressing a contrary opinion.

[Lou_Duran]

I am probably about to step in it, but in the spirit of frank and open discussion (with not as much consideration for contributing to a "frictionless environment"- thanks Ben Sims), here it goes.  Basis: two full rounds plus two nine-holers on the White Course and 27 holes on the Red, starting on #8 for 9 holes, and #9 for 18.

The White has about everything most here would like less for three things, it is probably very difficult to walk (didn't try it myself), it has the wrong brand on it, and it is a difficult test for most golfers.  I have it very high on my personal list and can't think of a single hole which makes me scratch my head.  True, it has a ton of quirk and, as John Kavanaugh demonstrated often, it rewards specific course knowledge.  It is a course which would take me many rounds to fully comprehend, particularly as conditions and set-ups differ.

The Red may very well be a great course.  A reason I am returning this year is because I wasn't able to form an opinion based on its pre-opening condition, starting on the 8th and 9th holes, and concentrating (unsuccessfully) on a difficult match against the pro and his ringer.  Unlike Ben, I didn't get the feel that it was a particularly outstanding routing- though it could be- and it was certainly not an easy walk (a reason why a number of participants rode carts for the 18-hole match).  I understand that there might be a couple bridges installed to shorten some walk-arounds.  We did play a very short set of tees, maybe 6200 yards, which despite having a rather poor round, still allowed me to score in the 70s.  Compared to now, the vibe there and right after the 2013 5th Major vis-à-vis the Red was more subdued.

The White and the Red are two very different courses, which is a great thing for the members and their guests.  Any type of hole-by-hole playoff is highly dependent on the relative value a person attributes to playability and challenge.  I haven't played Pine Valley so I am probably out of line in using it for comparison, but the White is more in its genre as the Red is in CPC's.  In effect, the White is a fantastic championship course; the Red might be a great club course.  And we do like club courses on this site. 

[Bruce Wellmon]

On the iPhone, so I'll be brief.
As with R 4, R 6 is full of options. Options trump the great punchbowl on White.
Red +1.