White v. Red

[William_G]

Gray,

You played unaccompanied?  Like you said, since its a private club... members know how it is laid out.  I love that walk from 4 to 5.

yes with a friend of mine, fortunately the unaccompanied husband and wife PGA folks ahead of us didn't pick up our golf balls, nice people take the trek to DR no doubt

[Josh Bills]

I am enjoying this thread since I will be there in June, and just wondered if the 5th hole on White plays similar to the 11th at Shinnecock?  Looks similar from the picture posted.

[Tom_Doak]

I have no intention of weighing in on this match, generally, but I've gotta say I'm in Tiger's camp regarding 5 White.  Perhaps a few of the members know what he said about it.  I'm sworn to secrecy.

[Ben Sims]

I have no intention of weighing in on this match, generally, but I've gotta say I'm in Tiger's camp regarding 5 White.  Perhaps a few of the members know what he said about it.  I'm sworn to secrecy.

That was a good laugh on a day when my billion dollar bracket was toast by lunch time.

I'm biased of course, but I don't think I'm too far gone when I say that this feels a lot like a boxer throwing rounds to keep the TV viewers around. I've only seen White once or twice, and Red was dirt, mown prairie grass, and some hydroseed, and I've got it 4UP.  The routing is as good as any in the Renaissance quiver, which is saying something.

[Eric Smith]

A boxer throwing rounds. You have a lot of nerve, dude. Say what you will. Post your card. I am posting my own goddamn opinion, Ben.

[Ben Sims]

A boxer throwing rounds. You have a lot of nerve, dude. Say what you will. Post your card. I am posting my own goddamn opinion, Ben.

Whoa, relax. I'm not raining on anyone's parade. I'm posting my opinion that this is a romp thus far. That's been said by others on this thread as well. I'm on record before about my thoughts on Dismal White. I don't think it's a bad golf course. I just think Red is one of the better routings on the planet. And the routing makes this not a fair fight IMHO.

I love that you love your golf club Eric. We should all have your passion.

[Tyler Kearns]

Questions for Red # 4....

1.  What are your options off the tee?  It looks like 3 to me....carry the centerline bunker, take a line left of it, take a line right of it.  Yes?  No?

2.  What are the advantages/disadvantages of taking each of the 3 routes mentioned above?

Jim,

I've only walked #3 Red in the dirt, but I believe drives left to the right are faced with a blind or semi-blind approach to the green, while those favouring the left hand side get an unabstructed look.

TK

[Keith OHalloran]

Ben,
Can you expound a bit on your opinion of the routing? I always struggle trying to evaluate a routing, and would like to hear your reasons for calling it as good as any Renaissance has done.

[Eric Smith]

I'd like to apologize for the salty language last night. I am sorry.

[Mac Plumart]

No apologies, Eric.  No need. Ben accused people of lying.  Very immature and mean-spirited.  

In a hole by hole match play, routing is not part of it.  


Hole 6!

[Matt Glore]

I have no intention of weighing in on this match, generally, but I've gotta say I'm in Tiger's camp regarding 5 White.  Perhaps a few of the members know what he said about it.  I'm sworn to secrecy.

That was a good laugh on a day when my billion dollar bracket was toast by lunch time.

I'm biased of course, but I don't think I'm too far gone when I say that this feels a lot like a boxer throwing rounds to keep the TV viewers around. I've only seen White once or twice, and Red was dirt, mown prairie grass, and some hydroseed, and I've got it 4UP.  The routing is as good as any in the Renaissance quiver, which is saying something.

Big statement! Dismal White gets off to an absolutely cracking start. 1 to 4 is a superb stretch of holes - make that the whole front 9. If this isn't a fair fight, it's more because Dismal White is such an unusual design, that it doesn't feel right to compare it to a less "out there" course. Unlike many "unusual" designs, however (read Tobacco road), it never feels tricked up to me - just amazing fun. Not to do with the architecture per se, but the visuals, for me, beat anything in the Sand Hills or at Ballyneal - and that includes the drive out to the 1st tee (something I can't say I was enamoured by at SH but I give DW a pass as it's so beautiful by comparison) - there's a slightly ethereal feel to it driving through those big Dunes - hard to describe - just magic.

But you're right that one thing matchplays don't cover is flow. The Red is as good as it gets anywhere for that. I was delighted to see the tee to green walks there - it was like being at a compact course in the UK - literally right next to the green on many of the holes.

I agree with what you are saying here.  I have White up on all holes except for #5- I think Red 5 is one of the best par threes I've ever played.  I came away loving both courses, but so dearly wanted another crack at the White!  Thanks for the pictures and the reviews.

[Keith OHalloran]

I have no intention of weighing in on this match, generally, but I've gotta say I'm in Tiger's camp regarding 5 White.  Perhaps a few of the members know what he said about it.  I'm sworn to secrecy.

Tom Doak and Tiger Woods in agreement on architectural principles and ideas. I am smelling future collaborations! You heard it here first.

[John Kavanaugh]

As you may be able to tell, the 5th on the White is a members hole. Once you have played it a couple of dozen or so times it becomes relatively simple. If there was a hole in the world where I had to play Tiger Woods for more than I would care to lose this would be it. I see value in a beautiful hole that benefits those who pay the light bills.

[Peter Pallotta]

Brian - nice post #110, very interesting/informative for an outsider like me. As you know, I'm going only by pictures and descriptions, and while I'm the first to admit that routing/flow is crucial (especially for me), I've simply accepted that the 'match play format' isn't very good at factoring that in, so I'm happily just going hole by hole. And so far what I see and read is pretty much what you've experienced in the playing, i.e. that White (and Red) gets off to a cracking start! Look forward to seeing and reading about all the holes to come; but fwiw coming from me, so far I have absolutely no dea how, in the latest golfweek rankings, DRW is ranked/rated some 70 or 80 spots behind the Red. Hole-by-hole, I just can't see a rout or a cake-walk at all; and the visuals, as you say, are just striking (especially as they don't feel tricked up).

Peter

[Cliff Walston]

Late to the party, but here is my card...

Hole 1

W1 is a certainly a great hole.  I love the roller coaster to the bottom, and I have yet to hit enough club to get to the back bowl when the pin is there.  But it can be a really tough opener at times given its exposed nature and a fierce wind.  More than once I have lost a ball in the wugga after a stiff/sore/hungover opening swing, which leaves a bad taste in my mouth. 

Unlike a poster above, I have an affinity for opening par 5s.  Probably because my home courses (first as a kid and later as an adult) both open with par 5s.  It just feels right to me.  As to R1, I love the centerline bunker that always seems to be in my way in route to an interesting green complex.  Unless I am out for a solitary round, I am always playing match play.  And I think R1 sets up nicely for some early round fireworks.  Case in point:  During last years 5th Major CJ hit two great shots and had a long, difficult putt for eagle.  I skanked two rather poor shots out there, leaving a blind wedge shot from the far right fairway/walkway to 2.  Finding my form, I hit a great wedge to 5 feet and the hole was halved.  Lots of ways to play the hole and plenty of excitement to open the round.   

Red 1-0

Hole 2

Reasonable minds can differ, but W2 is my least favorite hole on the course.  Someone once said "one blind shot on a hole is good, two is not."  I am in that camp, primarily because of the second shot.  I find every time I am out there, we do the golf cart shuffle driving up to the top of the hill searching for the right line into the green.  I know it is a member's course, but 9 times out of 10, I take guests with me and its too much too early.  If the hole was later in the round it might not bother me as much, but at this point, I don't care for it.

On the other hand, I love R2.  It was walking up this fairway when it had just been hydroseeded (see Bruce's photo) during the Tom's course tour at the 2012 5th Major that I knew I was going to become a member.  I love the massive undulations of generous fairway, the simplicity of the bunkering scheme, aggressive options, bailout options, and angles. 

Red 2-0

Hole 3

A really tough call for me.  Both are excellent par 3s that I like a great deal.  I give a slight edge to W3 on this one.  Perhaps it is a function of the flow of the course, following the brutish second with a sweetness of a short.  I prefer it to R3, but by only the slimmest of margins.  Perhaps with more play my opinion will change, but for now, White gets on the board.

Red 2-1

Hole 4

I love W4.  The risk reward nature of challenging the left side.  The iconic windmill and water trough.  And a green complex that doesn't get the credit it deserves with all its backboards, side boards, small bowls, etc.  But I can't help but feel like I have played it before.  Its a great Nicklaus template, but a flatish par 5 wrapping left or right around a large bunker/waste area complex isn't unique.  (See 8th at May River and 8th at Carlton Woods).  To their credit, each hole generally has its distinguishing feature (centerline bunker at May River for example) but its not unique.

What is unlike anything I have ever played before is R4.  I love the hole.  Options and challenges galore.  Left, right, challenge the centerline bunkers, whatever task you are up for.  Easy choice for me.  Red is the winner, and I really do love W4.

Red 3-1

Hole 5

Love it or hate it, W5 is unique.  I believe it is perfectly acceptable to require perfection from a player.  A par three with a perfect lie from your choice of yardage is the place to do it.  I love the challenge.  (And for quite the challenge step over to the back tees and play it from that angle with a long iron.)  In the same way R4 is totally unlike anything I have seen, W5 is same for me.  I do wish recovery shots from long weren't quite so difficult to keep on the green.  I think it would remove some of the controversy from the hole and make it more universally loved.  But I will take it as is all day and every day.  This may be my favorite hole on the White.

R5 is a great hole as well.  Anytime I stand on the tee of a par 3 with driver, I am taken back to Carnoustie.  But to me R5's challenge is really all about length.  Yes that bunker is huge and fearsome, but there is plenty of room left and it has a simple green complex funneling everything inward.  Ultimately, the unique factor that carried the day for R4 takes it for W5.

Red 3-2.

Looking forward to continuing this journey.  Thanks Eric for getting it started.

[Eric Smith]

Thanks for chiming in, Cliff.

And thank you for letting me use your incredible photos!

6 is coming up..

[Eric Smith]

The 6th round is another solid match up. Two short par 4's offering a chance at glory, under the right conditions, but not without a price. I like a breakfast analogy here. Both offer the full breakfast - hit it big and hope; or the short stack - hit 3 wood to the front bunker; or the continental - lay back with an iron for a full shot into the green.

I like both holes a lot, but the White adds the pretty waitress who calls you darlin', with its blind punchbowl green.

White wins. All square heading to the seventh.

6 White
348 / 313 Par 4




6 Red
326 / 290 Par 4


Photo: Cliff Walson

[Cliff Walston]

in the latest golfweek rankings, DRW is ranked/rated some 70 or 80 spots behind the Red. Hole-by-hole, I just can't see a rout or a cake-walk at all; and the visuals, as you say, are just striking (especially as they don't feel tricked up).

Peter

Actually, I think it is 113 places (39 v. 152).  And in a general sense, I think you are absolutely correct in that I think the White is ranked too low.  But what doesn't come across in pictures but has been discussed at length is the overall difficulty of Dismal White.  I love it, as do most of my guests with handicaps less than 5.  We have somewhat of a masochist streak in that we love an significant challenge when it is presented in a manner that can be met.

However, my 65 year old father-in-law, who is a pretty decent stick, would play Dismal Red 99 times out of 100.  White simply asks more from each shot and the penalty for not meeting the challenge is generally 20% greater.  There is almost no "I got away with one" on the White, where missing in the proper spot on the Red can leave a relatively straight-forward recovery.  It certainly has its impossible locations as well, but they are fewer in number.  I feel magazines, when ranking non-sacred cows, really do try to take the perspective of the average golfer, which many of the raters are.  From that perspective, I can see where the White may get penalized by some for its overly penal nature, particularly by those who have rated it after only one or two plays.  As a member, I find I love the White much more now after having learned what tactics work best for me on particular holes, which only comes after repeat plays.

Just my thoughts on the issue.  Many may disagree.

[Mac Plumart]

Like White 5, White 6 is unique.  Another hole that I look forward to playing when I come to Dismal...that I can't find anywhere else.  I've almost driven the green and I've hit 3 iron off the tee.  Super cool...super unique.

Red 6 is another really cool hole.  I've seen people hit 7 iron off the tee, 4 iron, and drive the green (especially if the wind is behind you).  Options and coolness.  I actually really love the small details on this hole.  In front of the green are some bunkers...nice punishment if you try to drive the green, but fail.  However, all the long grass up by the green and those bunkers is gone.  No need to search for a ball if you miss the green...it is punishment enough being short on that hole and dealing with delicate chip off the short grass hazard.  NOW, if you are way short...forget about it...the ball is gone...and you deserve that.

Both great holes...but I'm giving the nod to White for the uniqueness and fun factor.

All square on the MRP Scorecard.

[Peter Pallotta]

Cliff - thanks much for sharing those insider's thoughts; like Brian's, they are interesting to me. I can understand what you're saying about the mid-higher handicapper, and even from photos I can see that White can be a tough test; but I've seen photos of a course like Tobacco Road too, and sorry to say I have absolutely no interest in playing that course -- there, the toughness seems both wholly manufactured and almost comical, while at the White it seems much more natural and honestly-occuring, as if the hand of man was hidden and as if the challenges it presents are only those normally inherent in a round of golf (as it's been played for more than a century.) 

So to continue to #6, thanks again for the photos and descriptions, and still the string of good and interesting holes continue on both courses. But for me, this choice seems just a tad easier than the last couple, for inherent in the value of a short par 4 is both the appearance and the reality of choices, as well as a high VORD (variety of recovery difficulty) score  -- and to my eyes the Red embodies/encapsulates these values better than the white. This one goes to Red for me.

So, after 6 holes, PJP scores the match: DR Red, 1 up.    

[Cliff Walston]

Hole 6

I do like to be called Darlin and do love the punchbowl green, but to me this one goes Red.  I know it can be done, but driving the green on W6 just doesn't seem realistic to me.  The way to play the hole is really straight forward.  Knock it up there for a pitch into a soft receptive green.  I do like anticipation of figuring out whose ball is which, but the best way to play it is right there in front of you.

On the other hand, R6's intrigue is that, at least in my opinion, the two most obvious options (full breakfast and the short stack) are often the worst choices.  Its really tough to hold that green from the tee, but its so damn tempting virtually every one of my guests go for it, as I did the first few times out.  Those few that don't go for it hit it up close to the green near that bunker.  But unless the pin is way back, carrying the bunker and stopping it quickly with less than a full wedge is really tough.  No, for me the best way to play this hole is an exercise in discretion.  Much like my expanding waistline dictates the continental breakfast rather than buffet spread back at the clubhouse, a long iron way to the right in the hidden fairway landing area with a full wedge carries the day.  And I have won the hole that way more often than not.  The thought required on R6 puts it on top.  

Red 4-2

[John Kirk]

I have a question, because I don't know much about the White course.

Has anybody seen a player drive the 6th green on the White course?  At 313 yards, it seems like a tall task, with the narrow openings and steep slopes leading up to the green.  It looks like the best you can do is leave it a few yards right of the green, unless you're that rare player you cn hit a high, soft 270 yard (at sea level) tee shot.

Judging by pictures/appearances, attempting to drive the Red's par 4 6th hole is more enticing.  It looks like I might be able to do it, whereas the White's design looks like a clear layup to wedge distance.

[Jim Colton]

Does the lower fairway come into play on 6th hole of White? On Google Earth, the turf looks to be a different color so I wonder if it maintained as a playable option? Looks like a 6I-9I strategy

[Mac Plumart]

Judging by pictures/appearances, attempting to drive the Red's par 4 6th hole is more enticing.  It looks like I might be able to do it, whereas the White's design looks like a clear layup to wedge distance.

John...I'd say that is a pretty good assessment.



Jim...Hmmm, I've only ever been there by accident!  

[Eric Smith]

Does the lower fairway come into play on 6th hole of White?

Jim,

No. It was meant to be utilized when playing from the original (now abandoned) back tees just off the back of 5 green, which you might still be able to make out on Google Earth.

I have a question, because I don't know much about the White course.

Has anybody seen a player drive the 6th green on the White course?

John,

Yes. I have seen the hole driven a number of times, having done so myself with the wind at my back.