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Bart Bradley

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Are we as architecture hobbyists expected to analyze a course's architecture against

A.  The best possible course that could be built given the constraints of the property, the purpose of the course, and the client's wishes

B.  Other courses that we have seen

C.  A set of standards that are either personal or consensus
 


I believe that A is impossible.  As I have stated many times, I cannot ever know all of the constraints on a property or the entire circumstances of a course's build.  This is, of course, even more true of courses built long ago.

I honestly have no problem with either answer B or C as long as the person can explain the comparisons or can articulate the standards that they are using.

Discuss.

Bart

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Analyzing the quality of golf course architecture as a hobbyist?
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2014, 05:44:41 PM »
Bart,

It is possible to do "A", but very unlikely. You would have to spend lots of time on site and have many discussions with key project team members.

I probably spent 15-20 days on site at Sand Ridge during the construction and grow in stage and had many discussions with the club founder, project manager and superintendent, but very little time with the architect (Fazio) and his key associate (Marzoff).

That experience certainly gave me a pretty good idea of the constraints faced (mostly environmental issues - wetlands) but still left me with lots of questions about things I might have done differently.

Again, possible to do "A" but very unlikely. It would take both a large commitment in time by yourself and a large commitment by the project team, especially the architect, in terms of sharing information.
Tim Weiman

Peter Pallotta

Re: Analyzing the quality of golf course architecture as a hobbyist?
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2014, 08:42:33 PM »
Bart - interesting, and several fronts. I'll think about it, but for now I'd suggest that one of the complexities of your question/framework is that many people aren't all that conscious about the approach(es) they are taking. When we say "I don't think this hole is very good", do we really know if we mean "It's not as good as the Par 4 last I played last week in Scotland" or if we mean "I don't know why he didn't use that big mound over there and tuck the green half way behind it" or if it's "A Par 4 that long shouldn't have such a tiny green, because all but the biggest bombers will be approaching with a long iron" or a combination of all three? Maybe we do know, at least some of the times; I'm guessing we often don't.

Peter
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 08:49:21 PM by PPallotta »

David_Elvins

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Re: Analyzing the quality of golf course architecture as a hobbyist?
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2014, 09:21:00 PM »

Bart,

I think discussion is restricted because too many hobbyists are obsessed with analysing the QUALITY of golf course.  If you take an art appreciation class, it is not focussed on assessing the quality of art works and comparing their quality. 

Discussion of golf courses can be much more broad and interesting if they are focussed on understanding why and how things are done rather than through the paradigm of assessing quality.

Eg.  Tom Doak's comments about how Fazio's cart paths discourage strategic bunkering. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Steve Lang

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Re: Analyzing the quality of golf course architecture as a hobbyist?
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2014, 09:57:04 PM »

Bart,

I think discussion is restricted because too many hobbyists are obsessed with analysing the QUALITY of golf course.  If you take an art appreciation class, it is not focussed on assessing the quality of art works and comparing their quality. 

Discussion of golf courses can be much more broad and interesting if they are focussed on understanding why and how things are done rather than through the paradigm of assessing quality.

Eg.  Tom Doak's comments about how Fazio's cart paths discourage strategic bunkering. 





but you really need visual aids to help discussion..  otherwise its just like a rater's cheat sheet comparison at play
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Tom_Doak

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Re: Analyzing the quality of golf course architecture as a hobbyist?
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2014, 08:59:13 AM »

Bart,

I think discussion is restricted because too many hobbyists are obsessed with analysing the QUALITY of golf course.  If you take an art appreciation class, it is not focussed on assessing the quality of art works and comparing their quality. 

Discussion of golf courses can be much more broad and interesting if they are focussed on understanding why and how things are done rather than through the paradigm of assessing quality.

Eg.  Tom Doak's comments about how Fazio's cart paths discourage strategic bunkering. 

Golf is not the same as art; golf holes have to function.  It is possible to go beyond that, but not if the functionality is ignored [ie Stone Harbor].

As for the broad and interesting discussion, it's hard to do.  My realization about how Fazio's cart paths discourage strategic bunkering only came to me after one of my courses tried to put in cart paths after the fact ... I had long suspected a problem with architecture that focused on cart paths, but I didn't understand the effect it was having [nor did anyone else that I'm aware of, including Tom Fazio or the guys who worked for him].

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Analyzing the quality of golf course architecture as a hobbyist?
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2014, 09:20:05 AM »
Are we as architecture hobbyists expected to analyze a course's architecture against

A.  The best possible course that could be built given the constraints of the property, the purpose of the course, and the client's wishes

B.  Other courses that we have seen

C.  A set of standards that are either personal or consensus
 

I agree that (A) is difficult for the hobbyist, or even the professional.  It is easy to say that "I don't think the architect got the most out of the site," but hard to back it up.  There are two courses in particular where I said this, but later, given the chance to try and re-route them, I couldn't come up with anything I liked better.  [Sometimes routing puzzles just do not offer the perfect answer.]

(C) is also fraught with difficulty, because I don't trust anyone who believes that everything in golf should be designed around THEIR standards.  Indeed, I have never seen a set of standards that applies to all the great courses I've seen -- whatever you may propose is likely to fail to describe the merits of St. Andrews, or Prestwick, or Painswick, and let us be clear that it is your model that's failing, not those courses.

One of the reasons I am so enamored with this new book, "Antifragile," is that so much of it rings true for golf course architecture.  The craft continues to move forward not by theory, but by trial and error -- by guys going out and trying something a bit different, or trying it on a different piece of land.  Author Taleb's premise is that the same is true of almost everything worthwhile -- and it is those who propose grand theories, and retroactively try to fit new advancements into their theories, who make the world more dangerous.

RJ_Daley

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Re: Analyzing the quality of golf course architecture as a hobbyist?
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2014, 12:20:28 PM »
Similar to what others have said, I don't think we can have much depth to a discussion of your number one; "The best possible course that could be built given the constraints of the property, the purpose of the course, and the client's wishes."   The only hope we have of making any comments along those lines is if we have the principals of the project, architect and developer, in the discussion to give us clues as to what the goals of the design tried to achieve in terms of what market the project was aimed towards, what style and strategy was attempted to be presented, what land specific issues were present, and what the budget was.   One reason I thought all the many discussions and comments were good regarding Dismal River is that we had the architect and principal developer of the Doak course in the discussion and being quite candid about these issues that most would not otherwise understand just as a casual golfer-user-observer-rater.  Combine that with the very superficial understanding the hobbiest has of the actual usage and capabilities of the equipment and supplies used to construct the course on a given type of land, and we are mostly in the dark and shooting from the hip on these matters.

Yes, as hobbiests, it is all about comparison to other courses we have seen.  It is helpful if the hobbiest has done as Tim Weiman describes (and many of us fanatics have done) and go out and follow the construction process and engage those working in the ground with questions and observe the progression of how a project comes together.  Sometimes, the gist of our golf archtecture discussion threads gets down to many just declaring all the golf courses on their belt notching list that they have played, and not much about the actual merits of the design-construction.  But, as hobbiests, we have to rely on other courses we have experienced to give any context at all to the validity of our discussions.

On the third aspect, of course it generally comes down to personal taste and standards.  Some aspects of evaluation are somewhat consensus ideals (see other thread currently being discussed).   It seems if you take a focused group like GCA.com and spread out discussions over a long period of time, a few 'ideals' start to form up and build a consensus.  But, not universal ideals.  Just, consensus if you think somewhere north of 50% of the group feel a certain way about design characteristics and merits of a particular course presentation. 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Analyzing the quality of golf course architecture as a hobbyist?
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2014, 03:19:10 PM »
One other point I would like to make or try to make.

I never really considered Pebble Beach an example of great routing by the architect (an "A" question) because it seemed to me that given the options at the site many architects would have come up with something very similar. In other words, the course routing might be very good, but that doesn't necessarily mean the architect deserves much particular credit.

Tom Doak did recently point out something I hadn't thought about: the use of natural features on #3 and #16 at Pebble. Point taken. But, I still have a feeling the landscape at Pebble dictated the routing more than properties like Pine Valley, NGLA, Royal Melbourne, Augusta, etc.

Who knows? Maybe if I had experience reading topos my feelings would be different.
Tim Weiman

Tom_Doak

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Re: Analyzing the quality of golf course architecture as a hobbyist?
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2014, 03:33:30 PM »
I never really considered Pebble Beach an example of great routing by the architect (an "A" question) because it seemed to me that given the options at the site many architects would have come up with something very similar. In other words, the course routing might be very good, but that doesn't necessarily mean the architect deserves much particular credit.


Mr. Dye pointed out to me long ago that he thought hardly any architects would have seen and built #7 at Pebble Beach ... they would have dismissed it as having not enough room.  And if you don't see #7, you might not think to put a tee down there for #8, either.  Heck, for that matter, Neville and Grant missed extending the 18th hole to the present green ... Herbert Fowler came up with that a couple of years after the course opened.

Puzzles always look easier when someone has given you the solution. 

BCrosby

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Re: Analyzing the quality of golf course architecture as a hobbyist?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2014, 04:44:11 PM »

Mr. Dye pointed out to me long ago that he thought hardly any architects would have seen and built #7 at Pebble Beach ... they would have dismissed it as having not enough room.  And if you don't see #7, you might not think to put a tee down there for #8, either. 

Puzzles always look easier when someone has given you the solution. 

Tom -

Fowler said almost exactly the same thing about the 7th as Dye did. Something to the effect that it was a hole only an amateur architect would build. He recommended it be replaced with a par 3 across the inlet beyond the current 10th green. He also wanted to move the current 11th tee back and across to the far side of the inlet next to his proposed par 3 green.

Bob