[jeffwarne]

Here are the caveats to my statements:
1. I have played Goat Hill
2. I have not played or studied it nearly as much as Jeff has
3. No one cares what I think
4. Jeff definitely likes "these type" of courses more than I do.

That being said, GH is the type of course you play, have fun, and get into a state that in unsuitable for architectural study, which is fine because it may be unworthy of architectural study.
The world needs ditch diggers too.

Judge Smails,
Pick a public access course on Long Island
let's do a hole by hole comparison of width,interest, strategy, ground game,green complexes, terrain and architecture vs. the goat
Signed,
a ditchdigger fan

[Keith OHalloran]

Jeff,
That is the point. You like the ditch diggers, and that is great. You know I will go to GH with you and play whenever you want, and have as much fun as anyone, that being said, I would not recommend it to many people. What would you give it if you were submitting it for the new Confidential Guide?
I will take your word on the comparison to other publics on LI, but I do not have a high opinion of most of them either.

[jeffwarne]

If given the premise of Tom's original CG (a Guide for his friends), I would have it as a Gourmet's Choice
The Jeff rating of a 9 (unlike Tom I give it an extra point for being 9 holes ) would come with a conditioning disclaimer (and a helmet)
and no I'm not currently in a state "unsuitable for architectural study"

I have The Goat at 7-2 vs  Bethpage Black on the front nine, and 6-3 on the back nine and that's being generous to bethpage, and looking past its boring and unfun maintenance meld of ribbon fairway and high rough- much less useable width-not that flat fast greens demand placement of tee shots anyway

[Keith OHalloran]

Jeff,
I would agree with almost any argument against Bethpage Black. I have no real yen to get back there. I have no problem with people who think it is a great course, but it is not my cup of tea. What is we took all the tallgrass out of tallgrass?

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,
I would agree with almost any argument against Bethpage Black. I have no real yen to get back there. I have no problem with people who think it is a great course, but it is not my cup of tea. What is we took all the tallgrass out of tallgrass?

Tallgrass would be a tougher compare, as I've only played it with snow on the ground and I definitely was in a state unsuitable for architectural study -liked it though

[Bill McKinley]

this is an excellent thread and I have enjoyed reading it whilst it snows again here in NE Ohio.  I first heard about GH while on the 5th hole at The Bridge and it was none other than Jeff Warne who was schooling me on its merits.  My interests were high considering the source.  I respect Jeff and his opinions on golf courses.  I imagine he has seen a whole lot of the best of what golf has to offer.  And that might be one of the chief reasons why he likes Goat Hill so much.  I believe that only after you've seen the so called "bests" can you open your mind to appreciate a place like The Goat.  Which is why Jeff started the thread about "Have your views on GCA changed".  I think everybody's views change the more they experience different types of golf and golf architecture (good and bad). 

I have not played GH and while I have played many amazing places, I don't think I could fall in love with a place like GH just yet.  I'm sure I could enjoy my time there, but I would probably wondering in the back of my head if I would be having a better time somewhere else on the Island. And I think this might be where views like that of Brian Hoover are coming from.  Brian, by his own admissions, hasn't played a ton of the best, so he is craving more of that, not a 9 hole cabbage patch that takes many rounds to appreciate. 

Either way, nobody is wrong.  And it is definitely interesting conversation to have while I wait for this latest round of 5 inches of snow to melt!

[Paul Gray]

And just checked the green fee. $21 for 18 holes = golf utopia, for me at least.

As a Brit with an appalling preconceived idea of American golf these tours are a real pleasure, not to mention eye opener. I apologise for my ignorance and hope my education continues.

[BCowan]

Jeff,

     How is the burger there?  that could add another .5 point on your doak scale...

[Jon Wiggett]

'They aren't great architecture.  They are good examples of someone wanting to play golf so throwing down greens and tees in straight lines.
So let's not try to make them something they aren't on GCA.'

This was posted earlier in the thread and I just wondered what people think. Is it better GCA to use the land as it is to create a fun course to play or is the better GCA when there is a lot of earth movement?

For me it is better to utilise the ground to its fullest and only tweak as needed.

Jon

[Keith OHalloran]

Jon,
Perhaps this is being too simplistic, but I want the best final product.  If the property requires earth moving to maximize its potential, I am OK with it.

[Jon Wiggett]

Keith,

I probably have not explained myself clearly enough. If two holes are laid out over identical land one of which is laid out using the land as it is with little or no earth movement and the other completely alters the entire lay of the land. Both are equally good to play but which is the better GCA?

Jon

[jeffwarne]

   And that might be one of the chief reasons why he likes Goat Hill so much.  I believe that only after you've seen the so called "bests" can you open your mind to appreciate a place like The Goat.  Which is why Jeff started the thread about "Have your views on GCA changed".  I think everybody's views change the more they experience different types of golf and golf architecture (good and bad). 

I have not played GH and while I have played many amazing places, I don't think I could fall in love with a place like GH just yet.  I'm sure I could enjoy my time there, but I would probably wondering in the back of my head if I would be having a better time somewhere else on the Island. And I think this might be where views like that of Brian Hoover are coming from.  Brian, by his own admissions, hasn't played a ton of the best, so he is craving more of that, not a 9 hole cabbage patch that takes many rounds to appreciate. 

Bill,
Those are excellent insights.
and are one of the reasons I rarely expose the Goat to first timers who travel to the Hamptons for golf.
Too many things they feel they need to see first, and they should max their time doing what they want/need to see.

and when I take members to the UK or Ireland for their first time, for every Pennard, Dunfanaghy, and Mulranny, I offet them big name or Open rota type courses they can brag about --but the big guns are rarely the ones they like or discuss most. Nonetheless, having a comparison, and most importantly, making sure they feel they haven't missed something, is hugely important.
Over time, with my regular travel partners, the trips have morphed into less big guns and more adventurous choices-especially 9 holers that are great supplements to a morning 18 holer.

The other thing that has to be factored in is what I'm escaping from after a full weekend at my workplace, which is the polar opposite of The Goat.
Nothing better than slipping out of work on a Monday at noon, putting on the shorts, loading the clubs and cooler in the boat and enjoying ride to and from The Goat-followed by a series of one hour 9 hole rounds of fun, interesting golf with no ball searches,



BCowan,
One of my great disappointments is that the restaurants at the Goat, though a very popular evening dining spot, is not open for lunch weekdays-even for hot dogs
There's a deli about 100 yards from the second green that seems to accomodate cart traffic well

Keith,
I think The Goat makes as good of use the land as any course I've ver played. Thank God they had no earthmoving equipment.
My guess is that The Goat were maintained in private club condition, the place would be packed, and its ruination would be imminent, both in pace of play, atmosphere, and eventual architectural bastardizations resulting in being a part of the continued homogonization of once interesting golf courses.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Yes-. Don't go. It sucks. Really. Also- Shelter Island is a terrible place. No fun at all. 

The worst part about this thread- an actual hidden gem has been exposed.

Goat Hill vs Truro
7-3.

[Keith OHalloran]

Jeff,
I was not really speaking of Goat Hill when I made my post. More of a general statement. From what I heard, Wolf Point had to be created. I am glad that is was created as it seems to be amazing. It seems like a course on that property would not have been as good without the earth moving, and I am OK with that.

[Gene Greco]

  I think this might be the only thread in the history of GCA in which everyone is "right."

I for one DID take the ferry to specifically play Shelter Island CC this past December. I played alone with no one else on the course, enjoyed the walk and left the island relaxed and content with life.  Just a game of golf on a brisk, sunny Saturday afternoon.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

You might have to be a good player who actually plays an 18 hole match for money, and pays at the end to appreciate Goat Hill. I say this because it might be possible a place like the Goat can only be fully understood under those conditions.

There is so much variety in the shots and a major premium on execution- that it brings out such emotion upon the execution of the shot at hand- be that good or bad. Is it possible that only then are  you able to appreciate the 'shot values'- perhaps they are missed upon a casual poorly played round with no stakes- but that might be a topic for another thread completely.

For those who haven't played Goat Hill- you have no idea. It's as simple as that.

If I died tomorrow I would go in the ground having played many of the best courses in the United States. Goat Hill is one of this country's great golf courses- for many, many reasons.

I do agree with the Gil Hanse idea- the Goat would certainly get more play from architecture enthusiasts visiting the East End- and if you did in fact visit- it would make sense why Gil Hanse enjoys it- probably the same way Benard Darwin enjoyed Aberdovey. Additionally- as I sit here after another piss poor day at the disgusting Doral- I can't help but think I will have 'the feeling of a schoolboy returning home from school' when I bob my ass along the South Ferry about to rip my first tee shot of the season off the thrilling first tee- why thrilling you ask? Thrilling because I know that I have a 15 yard bottle neck at about 275 to hit- and I will know right off the club head whether or not I will have a look at 2- and a go at the illusive 5 under 9 hole course record.

Thousands of places like the Goat? Naaaah. Just one Goat Hill.

[Chuck Glowacki]

  I think this might be the only thread in the history of GCA in which everyone is "right."

I for one DID take the ferry to specifically play Shelter Island CC this past December. I played alone with no one else on the course, enjoyed the walk and left the island relaxed and content with life.  Just a game of golf on a brisk, sunny Saturday afternoon.

Gene you got that "right".  The Goat brings us all back where it began.  Mom drops you off at the golf club and you play all
day.  It's the love of the game not so much where it's played. 

[Josh Tarble]

This has turned into quite a good thread.  I still maintain my stance that this course could be one of many in the US.  There are many on here with very considerate and highly regarded opinions and I don't mean to say they are wrong at all.  But I still don't see how this is a good example of great architecture?  I get it, there are a ton of blind shots and canted fairways but does it really do anything unique?

Like I said, I grew up playing on a course like Goat Hill.  Our high school "circuit" was played on courses just like Goat Hill.  I could name a dozen courses with holes just like these.  

That's not to take anything away from it either.  I think places like Goat Hill and Country Club of Casey, Illinois and Eagle Ridge in Paris, Illinois are great places.  They are quirky and short and weird.  AND they provide perfect places for people to learn the game while being low cost options.  To me places like these are keys in getting people interested in the game.  But let's not romanticize them into something they aren't.  That's all I'm saying.

[Ally Mcintosh]

New one on me... Looks like low key, great fun.

Thanks

[BCowan]

''Thank God Tom Doak didn't discover this or the course would be cluttered with Mackenzie bags Wink Wink Grin Grin''

That might be best of 2014, I almost fell off my chair from laughing so hard.  Jeff 3 under is the course record?  If so it has stood up to technology pretty well.

[Jon Wiggett]

I get it, there are a ton of blind shots and canted fairways but does it really do anything unique?

Josh,

I understand what you are saying but you can put that test to any course. Is for example NGLA unique? I think not as it is full of template holes and yet at the same time it is unique as many here would argue. There are very few truly unique courses and of the big names I would suggest that TOC is the best example of such and yet how did that develop? Is it great GCA or just a happy accident?

Jon

[BHoover]

The worst part about this thread- an actual hidden gem has been exposed.

I don't think you need to worry about legions of golfers crowding you out at Goat Hill.  We have our own places like this in our hometowns.

But seriously, there is always room for all types of courses, whether they are NGLA, Oakmont, Goat Hill, Shadow Creek, Doral, etc.  If I had a lot of beer and was with a group of friends, I think Goat Hill would be the perfect place for an 8-some (for golf...nothing else). 

[Sam Morrow]

What does the logo look like and are there trolleys?

[BHoover]

What does the logo look like and are there trolleys?

My nomination for post of the year!

[Josh Tarble]

I get it, there are a ton of blind shots and canted fairways but does it really do anything unique?

Josh,

I understand what you are saying but you can put that test to any course. Is for example NGLA unique? I think not as it is full of template holes and yet at the same time it is unique as many here would argue. There are very few truly unique courses and of the big names I would suggest that TOC is the best example of such and yet how did that develop? Is it great GCA or just a happy accident?

Jon

Jon,

You are correct, and I probably shouldn't have used unique as the descriptor.  But I have wonderful memories of my hometown course, the course record is -5 on 2700 yard par 35 with par 5s.  There are severely sloped greens and canted fairways.  There are really weird, quirky holes.  Internal out of bounds.  I could go on and on, but I'd never describe it as great architecture.  That's all I'm saying.

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