[Stephen Pellegrino]

I am a member of a Donald Ross course that has the following yardages listed for its three sets of tees:

Blue - 6042 yds.
White - 5904 yds.
Red - 5459 yds.

As such, there is 138 yards difference between the blue tees and the white tees. 

Our consulting architect has recommended that we explore the possibility of increasing this differential.  The reality is that the holes where we can add length are already our longest and most difficult holes - thus lengthening might seem a change for only the best golfers.  We have considered adding some forward tees, but there is no great outcry to shorten the length of any hole from any of the white tees.

The question is this: In the absence of a greater yardage discrepancy between our blue and white, should we seriously consider the elimination of one set of tees?  It's something that I would advocate, but I can already hear the chorus of complaints...

[Russ Arbuthnot]

I am a member of a Donald Ross course that has the following yardages listed for its three sets of tees:

Blue - 6042 yds.
White - 5904 yds.
Red - 5459 yds.

As such, there is 138 yards difference between the blue tees and the white tees. 

Our consulting architect has recommended that we explore the possibility of increasing this differential.  The reality is that the holes where we can add length are already our longest and most difficult holes - thus lengthening might seem a change for only the best golfers.  We have considered adding some forward tees, but there is no great outcry to shorten the length of any hole from any of the white tees.

The question is this: In the absence of a greater yardage discrepancy between our blue and white, should we seriously consider the elimination of one set of tees?  It's something that I would advocate, but I can already hear the chorus of complaints...

This a very oversimplified answer, but if you can't lengthen your longest tee, and you don't want to shorten your shortest tee, then shouldn't your middle tee be closer to 5750 yards? 6042 - ((6042-5459)/2) = 5750. That gives you more even spacing between tee options.

[Randy Thompson]

You could or should also shorten the reds. 20% difference from the back makes a nice number IMO!

[Dwight Phelps]

I am a member of a Donald Ross course that has the following yardages listed for its three sets of tees:

Blue - 6042 yds.
White - 5904 yds.
Red - 5459 yds.

As such, there is 138 yards difference between the blue tees and the white tees. 

Our consulting architect has recommended that we explore the possibility of increasing this differential.  The reality is that the holes where we can add length are already our longest and most difficult holes - thus lengthening might seem a change for only the best golfers.  We have considered adding some forward tees, but there is no great outcry to shorten the length of any hole from any of the white tees.

The question is this: In the absence of a greater yardage discrepancy between our blue and white, should we seriously consider the elimination of one set of tees?  It's something that I would advocate, but I can already hear the chorus of complaints...

Are you sure that you're not going looking for a problem where none exists?  While I'd agree that the 150 yard gap between Blue and White tees is unusual, it didn't sound like anyone really wanted it changed, other than the consulting architect you mentioned.  My follow up questions would be: Why was a consulting architect retained? Was course distance/tee options a reason for doing so? Will anyone other than the architect be upset (or put out) if tees aren't changed at all?

The way you've described the situation, it seems like no one's clamoring for a change in the tees and adding new ones would possibly be beneficial when looking at the numbers on the scorecard, but not necessarily when out playing the course.

[Peter Pallotta]

SP - if I'm not mistaken, Crystal Downs has not much difference (in total yards) between the back and the next to back set of tees; and on many holes the two sets of tees are almost side by side (if my memory serves me from one play a few years back); but on some holes, the distance betweent the two is meaningful, and I found myself several times happy to be playing the middle insitead of back tees. All of which is to say, it strikes me that one would want to work through this hole by hole -- find the holes where those playing the whites might meaningfully benefit/enjoy a much shorter yardage, and/or also a few holes where those playing the back tees could handle and enjoy some extra distance, and then add them up again and see what you get. In short, nothing about your situation strikes me as a 'problem' in and out itself....but that doesn't mean some/many holes can be udjusted in interesting ways and end up having a more 'traditional' gap between the total yardages.

Peter

[Sean_A]

Maybe this is too obvious, but if the club is looking to further differentiate the two back tees, has tees with harder driving angles been pursued? 

Ciao

[Stephen Pellegrino]

To answer (most) of the questions posed:

Shortening of the red tee has occured and will continue.  This shortening was (and still is) much needed.

The less "solvable" issue concerns the tees that the men at our club typically play - the blue and the white.  There are spots where it would be great to lengthen some mid or short length par fours and par fives, but we do not have the land to do this.  It is only on our longest and toughest par fours and par fives that we do have land that would allow for lengthening.

Could we create a middle set of tees for the white markers? Absolutely.  Is anyone asking for this? Absolutly not.  Moreover, if we did create a more forward version of the white tees, I can already hear the cries from our membership. "Why did you change what we had before?  I just want to hit from my same old white tees!"

The architect was retained in a restoration effort (overgrown trees, alterations to mowing patterns, green expansions, rebuild/augment bunkers, addition of forward/red tees, etc).  But he was also retained because there is evidence that Donald Ross spent precious little time on site.  The belief is that, other than the routing, DR did not spend much time on the design and build of this course.  Thus, much of our effort focuses on what DR would have done had he spent more time on site.  In this case, we wonder if he might have been more thoughtful when considering the yardage discrepancy between any two sets of tees?

[Thomas Dai]

I'd be curious to know what % of play is from the blues and what % is from the whites. Also are there any forced carries from any tee?
atb

[Bill Brightly]

I'd be curious to know what % of play is from the blues and what % is from the whites. Also are there any forced carries from any tee?
atb

I wondered the same thing. At 6042 yards, I would assume that most of the men play from the Blues. So the Whites are essentiallty senior tees?

I would look at each hole individually and try to envision how the seniors play each hole. Which of these holes will be getting new Red tees? How might the hole play from the current Red tee for seniors? Will there be bunkers now in play that were out of play before? I bet there are a few that would be really cool from the Red. Since few will willingly play Red tees, you'll need some strong Seniors on your committee to help "sell" this with their buddies. I think this is where an old ex-champ can play a HUGE role. If he is behind the changes and supports a few shifts forward, it is hard for the rest of the seniors to say too much.

I've posted about this before, but last Fall (after we stopped posting scores) I dragged all of my buddies up to the whites and reds on some of the holes. I also took them back to the blacks on a couple. I invented "new courses" before each round. Despite a bunch of sighs and eye rolling, my buddies went along with it. And they had a blast. They were hitting irons that they never hit before. My point is that they never willingly would have moved up, but once they tried it, they had more fun. So much so that we are now creating a hybrid course with scorecard. As an aside, we found some great par 4's when we played the Red tees on par 5's...

[Jud_T]

SP,

What are the yardages of the par 4's and 5's that you could lengthen?  There's also the option of having a hole be a par 4 from the blues and a par 5 from the whites or visa/versa.

[Stephen Pellegrino]

I am guessing here, but I would estimate of the men's rounds played:
68% is from the blue
30% is from the white
2% is from the red.

Forced carries from the white: 
140 yards on #2
40 yards on #4
120 yards on #7
60 yards on #8
120 yards on #9
100 yards on #11
120 yards on #12
100 yards on #18

Yes, the whites serve mainly senior golfers.  I agree that with the addition of new red tees farther forward, some current red tees might be great as white.  What we are fighting here, is perception.  Some who play the red or the white will complain that their course is not challenging enough.

The lengths of the par 4s that could be lengthened:
#2 is 452 yards (plays longer)
#10 is 431 yards (plays much longer & is into prevailing wind)
#18 is 422 yards (plays much longer & is into prevailing wind)

The lengths of the par 5s that could be lengthened:
#8 is 544 yards (plays much longer & is into prevailing wind)

[Tyler Kearns]

There are spots where it would be great to lengthen some mid or short length par fours and par fives, but we do not have the land to do this.  It is only on our longest and toughest par fours and par fives that we do have land that would allow for lengthening.

I don't know the course in question, but often adding length to the shorter par fours comes at great expense to the variety and interest of the golf course.  I realize you don't have the land to pursue that option, but I would caution any club against choosing such holes.  Does adding length to the long par fours & fives bring original Ross bunkers back into play?  If so, then it may be beneficial in instilling more classic character and Ross intent into your golf course.

TK

[Jason Topp]

Would those holes improve with the extra length?  Otherwise, why change? 

Someone who avoids joining your course because it is "too short" is not going to have a different opinion unless you add a huge amount of length. 

Would converting any of the long par 4's into par 5's be an improvement?

[Mike Nuzzo]

I would want to know what the land forms look like.
One large free from tee with blue and white markers is a lot different from discrete tees.
A larger tee can accommodate multiple placement locations and not change the scorecard.

Taken to the utmost degree:
Wolf Point is one giant tee or one giant fairway depending on your perspective.
Either way, play from where ever you want.

Cheers

[Dwight Phelps]

I am guessing here, but I would estimate of the men's rounds played:
68% is from the blue
30% is from the white
2% is from the red.

Forced carries from the white: 
140 yards on #2
40 yards on #4
120 yards on #7
60 yards on #8
120 yards on #9
100 yards on #11
120 yards on #12
100 yards on #18

Yes, the whites serve mainly senior golfers.  I agree that with the addition of new red tees farther forward, some current red tees might be great as white.  What we are fighting here, is perception.  Some who play the red or the white will complain that their course is not challenging enough.

The lengths of the par 4s that could be lengthened:
#2 is 452 yards (plays longer)
#10 is 431 yards (plays much longer & is into prevailing wind)
#18 is 422 yards (plays much longer & is into prevailing wind)

The lengths of the par 5s that could be lengthened:
#8 is 544 yards (plays much longer & is into prevailing wind)

Given all this, it seems like Sean's suggestion of new driving angles, rather than new driving distances, might be the best bet, especially if the architect is adding width with the tree removal/trimming and new mowing lines.

[jeffwarne]

Option 1
do nothing-involves no change and expense

Option 2
lengthen the longest and toughen holes-coincidentally that's where land is available
At only 138 yards difference, and a shorter course from both men's tees, adding a few yards here and there on every hole won't make much of a difference
involves the second least change and expense

Most courses add length wherever thay can find it and end up with a bunch of 190 yard par 3's and 392 yard par 4's.
Taking a hole from 370 to 392 doesn't change a thing for the better player.
leave the short and medium holes as they are, and strengthen the longest and toughest from the back tees and you'll get the most bang for your buck, and could accomplish this by adding probably another 100-150 yards.

Option 3
shorten the second and forward tees
most change and expense
seems really foolish to me as anyone on the middle tee can always mix and match middle/forward, and involves $$$$

While I am a big fan of option 2 (or option 1), the difficulty comes when the culture is for most men to play the back tees due to the relative shortness of the course. Start lengthening long holes and those who can't or already couldn't reach the lengthened hole will feel it and moan, even though at few other courses would they ever be candidates for the back tees.

[Keith Grande]

I love golfers who shoot 89 and say the course was too easy.

[Greg Tallman]

Why not simply eliminate the middle tee. What are your longest 4s? 5's?

[BCowan]

''It is only on our longest and toughest par fours and par fives that we do have land that would allow for lengthening.''

    Those are the holes you want to lengthen.  Leave the short holes short.  The problem when lengthening courses IMHO is courses lengthen the wrong holes.  There aren't enough long holes, especially with modern technology.  short and med length holes are good and can be ruined if lengthened. 

[Ken Moum]

''It is only on our longest and toughest par fours and par fives that we do have land that would allow for lengthening.''

    Those are the holes you want to lengthen.  Leave the short holes short.  The problem when lengthening courses IMHO is courses lengthen the wrong holes.  There aren't enough long holes, especially with modern technology.  short and med length holes are good and can be ruined if lengthened. 

+1

I have learned to hate courses where there's a bunch of par fours in the 370-400 range.  One of my recent favorites is Elie, with 16 par fours ranging from 254 to 466.

K

[Patrick_Mucci]

At an average of only 7.66 yards per hole, get rid of the White tee markers.

An old rule of thumb was to lengthen the long holes, but I would imagine that decision is situationally dictated.


I am a member of a Donald Ross course that has the following yardages listed for its three sets of tees:

Blue - 6042 yds.
White - 5904 yds.
Red - 5459 yds.

As such, there is 138 yards difference between the blue tees and the white tees. 

Our consulting architect has recommended that we explore the possibility of increasing this differential.  The reality is that the holes where we can add length are already our longest and most difficult holes - thus lengthening might seem a change for only the best golfers.  We have considered adding some forward tees, but there is no great outcry to shorten the length of any hole from any of the white tees.

The question is this: In the absence of a greater yardage discrepancy between our blue and white, should we seriously consider the elimination of one set of tees?  It's something that I would advocate, but I can already hear the chorus of complaints...

[Lou_Duran]

S.P.-

What is the mix and par of the course (e.g. 12-4-2, par 70)?  Parkland, hilly, soft/firm, normally calm?

What's wrong with A/one very long par 4 and 5 where you are forced to hit a solid drive to reach the green in regulation?  Maybe add 20 yards to each of the three long 4s and one long 5 (don't necessarily have to set the tees back there for normal play or adverse conditions).

Are you up against a boundary on the par 3s?  Can't find an angle to have one long par 3?

[Mike Hendren]

Agree with those who favor lengthening the long holes.  If you lengthen the short holes the yardage dispersion narrows.  Assuming the short holes are half-par holes (downward), why not lengthen the long holes to make them half-par (upward) with the result being a course full of half-par holes!  As a mid-handicapper, I love nothing more than making par on a long hole and find them strategic in the sense that I can set my par on the tee depending on my game that day structure my shot selection accordingly.  Often I'm pleased with a bogey.

Bogey

[Matthew Petersen]

I'm not sure I would worry much about the difference on the card. The question is how is that difference in practice on the actual holes. If every white tee is just 10 yards in front of the blue tee ... then meh, why even have them? But if you have a course where the white and blue are essentially at the same point on some holes but on a few, when needed for whatever reason, the difference is significant, then that's great and you shouldn't let the card get in the way of that.

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