Kingsley #2 (Scoring AVG be for the Pros?) Best Sub 162 yard hole in US?

[Mike Hendren]

Isn't the play here to ignore the front half of the green and always take enough club to play to the more generous back half?

Bogey

[Scott Wintersteen]

Thank God we have another Kingsley thread.  It's been weeks and weeks!

Haha, Kingsley gets a lot of love on here, unfortunately I have not played it so I don't have much to add.

[BCowan]

''I assume the PGA Tour would set up the course and hole harder than you guys see in everyday play.''

Jim,

Good point, I had to amend the opening statement to clarify the hypothetical.  It is the Kingsley Invitational (privately run tourney) with a large purse.  It would be in early Sept.  The PGA Tour would not be setting up the course.  The members/board of the Kingsley Club would determine that.  I don't think the PGA tour would set #2 up harder than everyday play, but I am not the one to answer that.  The PGA tour might want the greens faster, but they would want them softer than everyday play is my guess.  Don't burn me at the stake.  

[Jason Thurman]

Average score on the 2013 PGA tour for par 3s was 3.08.  So would #2 play easier than the average par 3 did last year?  I assume the PGA Tour would set up the course and hole harder than you guys see in everyday play.

I'm not sure how much harder the Tour could really set it up, at least based on when I played there for a few days last fall. The course was about as firm and fast as any that I've played. The green is already pretty severe. There just aren't many pinnable areas that don't get used.

17 at Sawgrass averages about a 3.08. Likewise with 12 at Augusta, which is around 3.15 if I remember correctly. Take away the penalty strokes from the water on those holes and 2 at Kingsley would almost have to play easier. Tour players are REALLY good, I don't see them getting foiled by a 150-ish yard hole.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Isn't the play here to ignore the front half of the green and always take enough club to play to the more generous back half?

Bogey

I agree but if you hit it slightl;y long...oh my..can you say X

To answer the qusetion, if the wind blows slightly, certainly above par.

[Tim Bert]

Isn't the play here to ignore the front half of the green and always take enough club to play to the more generous back half?

Bogey

Bogey - Yes it is always the play though the back half if hard to stick as well for those of us that don't put an incredible amount of spin on the ball. Good players are fine aiming back there and will walk away with par more often than not if they don't blow it.

Jud - The median wouldn't tell you anything either. You need to see the full range of scores. My median score there is probably a bogey but that doesn't reveal the number of 6,7,8,x I have there.

[Howard Riefs]

Isn't the play here to ignore the front half of the green and always take enough club to play to the more generous back half?

Bogey

I agree but if you hit it slightl;y long...oh my..can you say X

To answer the qusetion, if the wind blows slightly, certainly above par.

Agree that the back right is the safe shot on the green.

But as MWP notes, a long shot would be lucky to end up in the back bunker. Otherwise, the ball may roll across the cart path and into the junk closer to 4 green.

http://www.kingsleyclub.com/course-tour/2nd-hole.html

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I think all this talk suggests a weekend at Kingsley for gca is due in the early fall?

[Jim Nugent]

I'm not sure how much harder the Tour could really set it up, at least based on when I played there for a few days last fall. The course was about as firm and fast as any that I've played. The green is already pretty severe. There just aren't many pinnable areas that don't get used.

17 at Sawgrass averages about a 3.08. Likewise with 12 at Augusta, which is around 3.15 if I remember correctly. Take away the penalty strokes from the water on those holes and 2 at Kingsley would almost have to play easier. Tour players are REALLY good, I don't see them getting foiled by a 150-ish yard hole.

12 at ANGC has averaged 3.29 for all Masters tournaments.  (Exactly the same as the 240 yard 4th hole btw.)  I think those swirling winds make it tough to judge. 

[Matthew Sander]

I don't know, I think a front hole location would give even the best of players some fits. It only takes a slight pull or push to find a pretty nasty spot. I know how good those guys are, but I also know that the guys that aren't fully dialed in on a given day can hit some wayward (relatively) shots.

Does anyone know if proximity stats for a given distance are available? My guess is that the tour average proximity to the hole on a 150+/- yard shot would put them awfully close to the edge of the green in relation to a front pin. Miss the green to either side on that hole and the up/down % would have to be significantly lower than the tour average for all holes.

Oh well, we'll certainly never know...

[Matthew Sander]

I don't know, I think a front hole location would even give the best of players some fits. It only takes a slight pull or push to find a pretty nasty spot. I know how good those guys are, but I also know that the guys that aren't fully dialed in on a given day can hit some wayward (relatively) shots.

Does anyone know if proximity stats for a given distance are available? My guess is that the tour average proximity to the hole on a 150+/- yard shot would put them awfully close to the edge of the green in relation to a front pin. Miss the green to either side on that hole and the up/down % would have to be significantly lower than the tour average for all holes.

Oh well, we'll certainly never know...

I found these stats on the Tour website. Els leads from 150-175 at 20ft. 2in. from the hole. Middle of the pack is about 27ft. 2in. Bronson La'Cassie (yep, that's right) leads from 125-150 at 15ft. 1in., with the median being 23ft. 1in.  I don't know exactly how wide the front of the green is, but 20 ft. on either side of a front hole location  must be awfully close to trouble.

[Bill Seitz]

Isn't the play here to ignore the front half of the green and always take enough club to play to the more generous back half?

Bogey

As others have said, this is the smart play.  Though I have hit what I thought was a perfectly safe shot to the back middle of the green when playing a front pin and proceeded to see my lag putt swing way left and down into the swale.  Hitting the green is no guarantee of par to a front pin.

Generally speaking, if you miss the green, hitting to the fat part on your pitch is still the smart play, even when the pin is up front.  But damn, it's really hard to get yourself to stand 30 feet from the pin and aim 90 degrees away from it.  Just mentally, it's a difficult thing to convince yourself to do.

The other thing that makes it difficult is that with the hairy bunkers, anything that doesn't fly into a bunker may get hung up in the long stuff around the edges, which makes the shot much more difficult than if the ball had just run into the bunker. 

[Carl Nichols]

What was the scoring average on the 11th hole at Shinnecock during the U.S. Open in 2004?  I haven't played Kingsley, but that number might give you some ideas. . . .

Edit:  Assuming a US Open-style setup.

[Jason Thurman]

12 at ANGC has averaged 3.29 for all Masters tournaments.  (Exactly the same as the 240 yard 4th hole btw.)  I think those swirling winds make it tough to judge. 

I think that matches what I saw yesterday, but the average has been quite a bit lower over the last 20 years if I remember right.

Those old guys were hacks playing with inferior clubs.

Sincerely,

Guy who got fitted 30 minutes ago and feels like a pro now

[Howard Riefs]

What was the scoring average on the 11th hole at Shinnecock during the U.S. Open in 2004?  I haven't played Kingsley, but that number might give you some ideas. . . .

Edit:  Assuming a US Open-style setup.

Rounds 1-3:   3.302 avg
Round 4:        3.500 avg

http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/usopen04/news/story?id=1825341

[Jim Nugent]

12 at ANGC has averaged 3.29 for all Masters tournaments.  (Exactly the same as the 240 yard 4th hole btw.)  I think those swirling winds make it tough to judge. 

I think that matches what I saw yesterday, but the average has been quite a bit lower over the last 20 years if I remember right.

Then the average must have been quite a bit higher before that. 

Last year was 3.2175 -- tougher to par than #18 and #10, even if by tiny amounts. 

[Matthew Lloyd]

#11 has a very tough green with ridge running through it.  Love the look of it.  I am not surprised by that scoring average being the highest.  

yeah i honestly think that #11 with the far back pin placement atop that ridge makes for the hardest par on the course.

as for the scoring average on #2, i would feel so much better about my own game if pros got their ass kicked on that hole. 

john kirk's score postings were very interesting, and also make me feel better.  I am a very average golfer, but i play with friends up there who are really good and every time they get an "other" on #2 i selfishly feel better about my own game.

[Matthew Lloyd]

I was a member of the Kingsley Club for about eight years.  For four years I compiled a hole-by-hole scoring for all my rounds.  In 35 rounds at Kingsley between 2005 and 2008, my scoring averages on the par 3 holes were:

#2 - 3.49
#5 - 3.48
#9 - 3.34
#11 - 3.51
#16 - 3.43

I generally played the longest or second longest tees on these holes.  I almost always played #9 (~160) and #11 (~170) from the back tees.  My conclusion is that all of these par 3s are pretty difficult; none of them are easy.  It's very surprising that #11 yielded the highest score.

I agree with Jason Thurman about an average score for the pros of about 3.00, but it would be much higher in a typical strong crosswind.

John, I am 95% sure I played a round with you at Kingsley many, many years ago.  Your name sounds very familiar.  If you're from Oregon -- or currently live there -- then I'm pretty certain that was you. My dad is a Kingsley member and I was up there playing with him before one of the events there. If you have any memories of playing Kingsley with an under 30 golfer who plays poorly but quickly, that was probably me.

[Jud_T]

Jud - The median wouldn't tell you anything either. You need to see the full range of scores. My median score there is probably a bogey but that doesn't reveal the number of 6,7,8,x I have there.

Tim,

I'm not sure what you mean.  If you had a dozen pars and a couple of 10s, as I've taken on the hole, then the median is much more useful than the mean. Obviously the full data set is the most informative.

[Tim Bert]

Jud - The median wouldn't tell you anything either. You need to see the full range of scores. My median score there is probably a bogey but that doesn't reveal the number of 6,7,8,x I have there.

Tim,

I'm not sure what you mean.  If you had a dozen pars and a couple of 10s, as I've taken on the hole, then the median is much more useful than the mean. Obviously the full data set is the most informative.

Jud - I'm not sure what you median (pun intended).  If you had a dozen pars and two tens as you suggested, the median is 3. If you had 2 birdies, 3 pars, and 2 triple bogeys the median is 3. If you had 4 aces, 2 birdies, 1 par, and 6 bogeys the median is 3.

How is that useful for this exercise?

[Jud_T]

If you had a dozen pars and 2 10s the mean is 4 and the median is 3,  the combo of which is more informative IMNSFHO.  Besides, we know you think #5 is the best par 3 on the course, so your opinion is to be taken with a grain of salt to begin with.  

[Tim Bert]

If you had a dozen pars and 2 10s the mean is 4 and the median is 3,  the combo of which is more informative IMNSFHO.  Besides, we know you think #5 is the best par 3 on the course, so your opinion is to be taken with a grain of salt to begin with.  

16 is the best par 3 on the course and it isn't close.  Get your facts straight!

[BCowan]

I'm sure sitting in some bleachers watching the pros play #2 @ Kingsley, there would be a few 5's and 6's on the hole frequently.  The hole could give the pro's fits, I am pretty sure.  Just imagine 200 GCA nerds sitting in bleachers drinking Michigan craft watching the best in the world struggle on the hole we play.  We could even have someone announce the players when they arrive on the 2nd tee, forget the first hole introductions (so predictable).  This will be a fun hypothetical and fantasy as I will be snowed in tomrw...

[Matthew Lloyd]

Have any of you guys watched the college matches that have been played at Kingsley?  I have not, but it's something I've wanted to do.  Would be interesting to see how those guys play some of these holes.

[BCowan]

This is such a great par 3.  One in which you think about it while playing the 1st hole.  it doesn't have a pond left and a bunker right like many overrated par 3's do.  Much more creativity in design and shot value.  What sub 160 yard hole is better in the US?